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Old 2013-02-19, 09:43   Link #341
Demi.
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Originally Posted by Kaijo
Look, I like characters, too. But I am mature enough to realize when the focus on them has come at a great cost to the other cast members, and say, "That ain't right."
And I revert back to the claim that it is a result of poor characterization for other characters, not a result of Fate's screen time. The first movie is the only real instance that could be used as an example, yet Fate was always a very important aspect of it. In A's movie, only the minor characters have their screen time greatly reduced. Hayate, the Wolkenritter, even Reinforce have a good portion of the movie. Reinforce especially, as she has almost twice the amount of screen time (proportionally) than she had in the series.

(Yes, I watched it during my trip to Asia)

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post

Lastly, calling us "rejects" behind our backs isn't helpful. We can have differences of opinion, and not resort to insults spoken out of supposed earshot. If that's how you think of us, then why are you here, mingling with us rejects? I used to think that, even if you were a big Fate fan, that you were at least a decent enough person to recognize and accept other people's differences of opinion. I'd really hate to find out that was wrong.

I apologize, yet I don't think it's smart to comment on a reply you effectively reported. Also, I wouldn't say it was behind your back, I thought the profile section was more lax as far as what can be said. Sanksters profile is not private and I knew it would be viewed by many a posters.

And to be frank, I don't enjoy debating about this. Never have, and likely never will. I run on a meter and when that meter reaches overdrive, I feel the need to step in. I rarely post in this subforum otherwise.
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Old 2013-02-19, 09:52   Link #342
Sunder the Gold
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I don't think Touma is The Wesley. As a character, he's at least okay.

It's just that his story got castrated when the heroes arrested him and then put him right back into the training scenes from StrikerS. And the rest of his manga also sucks for various other reasons related to plots and pacing.
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Old 2013-02-19, 09:56   Link #343
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I wouldn't say it highlighted any kind of lack or advantage, just different parenting styles. By Fate's own admission, she didn't do much raising of Erio or Caro.
But she nevertheless interacted with Erio and Caro and lots of other unnamed children that she rescued. I didnt say Fate had parenting experience, but experience with children.
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Old 2013-02-19, 09:59   Link #344
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
And I revert back to the claim that it is a result of poor characterization for other characters, not a result of Fate's screen time. The first movie is the only real instance that could be used as an example, yet Fate was always a very important aspect of it. In A's movie, only the minor characters have their screen time greatly reduced. Hayate, the Wolkenritter, even Reinforce have a good portion of the movie. Reinforce especially, as she has almost twice the amount of screen time (proportionally) than she had in the series.

(Yes, I watched it during my trip to Asia)
Yet, they cut out Graham, who despite his relatively little screentime was quite central to... well, pretty much everything in A's. From Hayate living alone to the book's awakening.
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Old 2013-02-19, 10:39   Link #345
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
And I revert back to the claim that it is a result of poor characterization for other characters, not a result of Fate's screen time. The first movie is the only real instance that could be used as an example, yet Fate was always a very important aspect of it. In A's movie, only the minor characters have their screen time greatly reduced. Hayate, the Wolkenritter, even Reinforce have a good portion of the movie. Reinforce especially, as she has almost twice the amount of screen time (proportionally) than she had in the series.

(Yes, I watched it during my trip to Asia)
You are still coming across like it is the character's fault that they aren't popular enough to be written about. Which, while it has a grain of truth, still doesn't mean it is a good move. Yes, we know Graham isn't as popular as Fate... that doesn't mean he should be shafted. Can you at least agree that a show that shafts a great number of characters and gives them little to know development, is a mistake on the part of the writer, no matter how popular some of the mains may be? Can you at least agree that it indicates a series out of balance? Or would you really prefer that characters get development in proportion to their popularity, regardless of the effect on the overall plot?

Quote:
I apologize, yet I don't think it's smart to comment on a reply you effectively reported. Also, I wouldn't say it was behind your back, I thought the profile section was more lax as far as what can be said. Sanksters profile is not private and I knew it would be viewed by many a posters.
I didn't report it (I rarely, if ever report anyone). I know who did, but I won't say. I'll accept your apology, but I'd appreciate it more if you didn't honestly feel that way about us. It does hurt.

Quote:
And to be frank, I don't enjoy debating about this. Never have, and likely never will. I run on a meter and when that meter reaches overdrive, I feel the need to step in. I rarely post in this subforum otherwise.
How would you feel about someone stepping in on the NanoFate forum with Yuuno or Yuunha comments? Why can't you just let this forum be this forum? The main reason I am here, is because unlike most Nanoha forums, this one is accepting of everything. Practically every other forum comes down on you hard if you insinuate anything but NanoFate. I suppose, in that light, the people here are rejects because they don't solely preach a NanoFate gospel, and so were rejected from other forums. I was actually on NanoFate for quite awhile, and made some pretty good friends, before Haru banned me for unknown reasons. All the friends I made there were upset about it.

So, I'll drop this, because you apologized and acknowledged it, which takes a certain depth of character, and it helps raise my respect of you back up. But I'd suggest you try to understand the position of the posters in this forum, and respect them, too.
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Old 2013-02-19, 10:41   Link #346
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Well while Graham was somehow related to the plot his actions, in the end, are not all that important. In the end his actions and the ones from the twin cats fall out as an attempt to just give Chrono something to do in the series and while it does integrate with the rest of the story it doesn’t necessary makes it an essential part of the story itself. Really how Hayate is able to live alone and how the book eats the Wolkenritter is not as important as such things happening. I could also see it like having Reinforce walking around and then turn in to the Wolkenritter in the last moment because of the corrupted program as well as taking Hayate with her and using the power to destroy for not good reasons. Graham’s role and his twin cats are not essential to the plot on that regard.

And Keroko, me changing the subject? We all move around several things when we debate. Last time it started about invisible spells and we end with Sound Stage X. Here started with the SSX and now we are talking about A’s. How the hell this happen? But that is just part of talking and debating on a large scale, we always move around. But if you want to say me something do it in other parts, ok.
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Old 2013-02-19, 10:52   Link #347
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Well while Graham was somehow related to the plot his actions, in the end, are not all that important
He 'somehow' caused the entire climax to happen. That's pretty important, buddy.
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Old 2013-02-19, 11:00   Link #348
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No when you consider the climax happen without him doing anything. Really my point is that Graham, more than a character, is a role. He just has to give Chrono the ice staff and that is about it. Lindy could give him that thing and we could actually have a mother-son moment before he goes out to fight what kill his father. Just saying the story can find other ways to be complete and could just help to make it better. So yes, his role is not crucial to the point is necessary to always have it.
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Old 2013-02-19, 11:01   Link #349
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Well while Graham was somehow related to the plot his actions, in the end, are not all that important. In the end his actions and the ones from the twin cats fall out as an attempt to just give Chrono something to do in the series and while it does integrate with the rest of the story it doesn’t necessary makes it an essential part of the story itself. Really how Hayate is able to live alone and how the book eats the Wolkenritter is not as important as such things happening. I could also see it like having Reinforce walking around and then turn in to the Wolkenritter in the last moment because of the corrupted program as well as taking Hayate with her and using the power to destroy for not good reasons. Graham’s role and his twin cats are not essential to the plot on that regard.
Without Graham, Hayate would never have lived alone. Which means she would never have experienced the loneliness that caused her to wish for the book in the first place. Without Graham, Chrono would have stopped the knights in their track during their first meeting. Without Graham, Nanoha and Fate would have fought the knights to a standstill. Without Graham, Nanoha and Fate would have talked sense into the knights on the rooftop. Without Graham, the book would never have been completed. Without Graham, Hayate would never have been pushed over the edge and wish for the book's activation.

Graham was essential to the entirety of the A's plot. It was because of him that the plot could continue with mystery instead of people suddenly going stupid. Even with as minimal as his involvement was, it was essential to A's.

I have yet to see the movie, but I dread the amount of stupid required to keep it going as is.

Also the gaping plothole of "So, uhm, how does Hayate live alone again?" That might work on Mid, but it's quite a bit harder to explain on earth.

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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
And Keroko, me changing the subject? We all move around several things when we debate. Last time it started about invisible spells and we end with Sound Stage X. Here started with the SSX and now we are talking about A’s. How the hell this happen? But that is just part of talking and debating on a large scale, we always move around. But if you want to say me something do it in other parts, ok.
Not subject (everybody here does that, all the time) but goalpost. You claim you want A, and when we show you that the series does give you A, you claim all you really wanted was B. Case in point, the whole "side characters need more development/don't waste time on side characters" thing you have going on.
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Old 2013-02-19, 11:11   Link #350
Demi.
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
You are still coming across like it is the character's fault that they aren't popular enough to be written about. Which, while it has a grain of truth, still doesn't mean it is a good move. Yes, we know Graham isn't as popular as Fate... that doesn't mean he should be shafted.
I'm not particularly saying they're not popular enough to be written about. I'm saying the screen time they do have is not used effectively. And this does lead to them being considered fodder for a good portion of the franchise. The end result may be that they lack the popularity to garner any kind of depth, but it shouldn't have come to that in the first place. There are so many scenes that could have been reworked to benefit the characters, without removing screen time from other characters. StrikerS in particular seemed to lack any real kind of focus for most of the new characters, despite them having sufficient amount of screen time.

Quote:
Can you at least agree that a show that shafts a great number of characters and gives them little to know development, is a mistake on the part of the writer, no matter how popular some of the mains may be? Can you at least agree that it indicates a series out of balance? Or would you really prefer that characters get development in proportion to their popularity, regardless of the effect on the overall plot?
Like I said, I agree with this. I just don't agree with the supposed reason behind it. I chock it off as lack of creativity on Tsuzuki's part. StrikerS got too complex for him, and he no longer knows what to do with everyone. They all (or most) have enough screen time to make an impact, yet few actually do.

Quote:
I didn't report it (I rarely, if ever report anyone). I know who did, but I won't say. I'll accept your apology, but I'd appreciate it more if you didn't honestly feel that way about us. It does hurt.
I can't help it. I don't like to debate. This is a chore to me. And yet I'm constantly baited into replying because I can't seem to stop myself when this discussion is brought up in rapid succession.


Quote:
How would you feel about someone stepping in on the NanoFate forum with Yuuno or Yuunha comments? Why can't you just let this forum be this forum? The main reason I am here, is because unlike most Nanoha forums, this one is accepting of everything. Practically every other forum comes down on you hard if you insinuate anything but NanoFate. I suppose, in that light, the people here are rejects because they don't solely preach a NanoFate gospel, and so were rejected from other forums. I was actually on NanoFate for quite awhile, and made some pretty good friends, before Haru banned me for unknown reasons. All the friends I made there were upset about it.

So, I'll drop this, because you apologized and acknowledged it, which takes a certain depth of character, and it helps raise my respect of you back up. But I'd suggest you try to understand the position of the posters in this forum, and respect them, too.
I'm pretty certain I have never commented negatively to someone who had a positive thing to say. IE, I could really care less which pairing you ship, or what your favorite animated scene is. What sets me off (and I'm sure you know this by now...) is how Fate is considered the sole cause and reason behind every disagreeable thing about the franchise. I could honestly fill up an entire journal with comments of yours in relation to that. Yes, it's just your opinion, and I do try to accept that to an extent, but I have limits, and it's hard not to defend my favorite character ever.

For reference, the most recent offender:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo
Well, that reduced their development once again to just their relationship with Fate, but that's the price they pay for being related to Fate. Her character pretty much destroys almost everyone else around her, and thus the character of Fate is the most ruinous part of Nanoha. Erio and Caro exist just to advance Fate, and that's it. The sooner Fate is gone from the series, the better.
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Last edited by Demi.; 2013-02-19 at 11:24.
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Old 2013-02-19, 11:23   Link #351
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No really. Graham can explain parts of the plot on A’s, I give you that, and I did like his little role even if the mystery he set was kind of obvious by the end: I mean two identical mask men, two twin cats… kind of obvious. But again you are missing my point. What I say is that, in the end, Hayate needed to have the book, raise the Wolkenritter and that is about it. The fact that someone was pulling strings inside are not really that important and could be skip to focus more on the treat the knights represent. You see, Graham had a spot but was a really minor one and is not essential just helps to explain minor inconsistencies that the series actually has even later on.

How Hayate can afford to live alone? A relative that sends her money. How Chrono doesn’t stop the knights? He is the one who gets his Linker Core suck the first time before Nanoha. How the Wolkenritter escape Nanoha and Fate, Shamal could use the book on her own. How they will not talk sense in to the knights with their words? The Book actually activates on its own because the Master is about to die.

Of course you could also give me explanation for the previous season to work without Nanoha or Fate but here I am making the point that in the end Graham is just a role to fit those holes not a character we can all root for or like all that much. Could be one we like? Yes, I don’t see why not but in the end is not an essential part on the same regard the Wolkenritter, Nanoha and Fate are.

And while you put what the series “gives” I already saw it and to me it didn’t work that is why I keep my complain. Different interpretation over the same fact. And the side characters with development I mean this because if you want to have so many characters then do something with them. But what they do is not good, not makes me care so why should I say is good? What I want is a good story that works its elements right or at least decent. Not just some things here and there that could be good but fall as “not that bad”.
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Old 2013-02-19, 12:00   Link #352
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
How Chrono doesn’t stop the knights? He is the one who gets his Linker Core suck the first time before Nanoha. How the Wolkenritter escape Nanoha and Fate, Shamal could use the book on her own. How they will not talk sense in to the knights with their words? The Book actually activates on its own because the Master is about to die.
What? Chrono had his Linker Core.... just what.....

No, just no....
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Old 2013-02-19, 12:00   Link #353
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You see, Graham had a spot but was a really minor one and is not essential just helps to explain minor inconsistencies that the series actually has even later on.
You mean minor inconsistencies like the ones you have spend the last couple of months endlessly complaining about being such a bad thing in Nanoha?

Again, as it was written A's would have stopped after Chrono caught Shamal.

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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
How Hayate can afford to live alone? A relative that sends her money. How Chrono doesn’t stop the knights? He is the one who gets his Linker Core suck the first time before Nanoha. How the Wolkenritter escape Nanoha and Fate, Shamal could use the book on her own. How they will not talk sense in to the knights with their words? The Book actually activates on its own because the Master is about to die.

Of course you could also give me explanation for the previous season to work without Nanoha or Fate but here I am making the point that in the end Graham is just a role to fit those holes not a character we can all root for or like all that much. Could be one we like? Yes, I don’t see why not but in the end is not an essential part on the same regard the Wolkenritter, Nanoha and Fate are.
Ah, thank you for saving me the time, because I was just about to do that. But as you seemed to have realized the futility of your post yourself, I'll just put it simply:

Thinking up alternatives does not change how essential Graham was to the plot of A's. It just... doesn't. No, he's not a character we can root for. That's not the bloody point, he's an antagonist for crying out loud. He's like Precia, someone who does something because he felt he needed to.

Being a character doesn't mean he has to be likable. There's plenty of characters out there that people despise with all their being. But that doesn't make them non-characters, or even bad characters.

Every character has a point in a story. A reason for existing. For Graham, it was being responsible for the whole mess in the first place, and keeping it going until the climax.

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And while you put what the series “gives” I already saw it and to me it didn’t work that is why I keep my complain. Different interpretation over the same fact. And the side characters with development I mean this because if you want to have so many characters then do something with them. But what they do is not good, not makes me care so why should I say is good? What I want is a good story that works its elements right or at least decent. Not just some things here and there that could be good but fall as “not that bad”.
And yet every time the series gives you... exactly what you ask, you shift the goalpost again. Yes, I can see how it would be hard to please you.

And they're not doing things bad, they're just doing things in a way you don't like.

Big difference.

But let's be a bit more constructive here, what is it you would like to see in the ongoing Nanoha series?
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Old 2013-02-19, 12:05   Link #354
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Oh, oh, can I offer what I'd like to see?

It might be really neat to have our heroes travel to a new planet each season, looking for Lost Logia and dealing with local mages who practice a different tactical style than any previous opponents.

Basically, have the TSAB use our heroes to deal with each new Lost Logia incident that the organization previously couldn't spare the manpower for.

After all, what else should you do with a fully-formed team of superpowered kids who appeared out of nowhere and who also have the strongest ties to the naval/interplanetary branch of the service?

Break up the team? Heck no! That's exactly what Admiral Letti sought to avoid with Hayate and the Wolkenritter.
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Old 2013-02-19, 12:20   Link #355
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Yes because those inconsistencies doesn’t affect the overall series which still is enjoyable not because its plot but more because the character are nice.

But no, Graham is not an antagonist. He barely shows screen time to be really much of a character to begging with. Again he is a role and not necessarily a key one like I just say. The point here being we really don’t know much about Graham. He is not present as something important to the story and his final goal really comes out as a little surprise than a big climax antagonist behavior. Why? Because we had to twin cats doing the work for him, this could actually be best helped if he did on his own and we really see his passion and determination to stop the Book of Darkness because he feels really flat on that regard and that is why I don’t see him as a key part of the story, he is just the guy who does some things not the antagonist mastermind behind everything. So no, he is not what I call essential without the need to imply he doesn’t fit his role well. Because he is that role and nothing more.

Nanoha and Fate could also be consider just roles but then again they show their own passion in the series and even in the movie. Why they care, how far they will go and really ended being sympathetic to the audience in general. So they really show a character that we kind of feel more like a human being than as a simpler plot machine like Graham and Hayate are. Those two just kind of fit their roles and do it right but Nanoha and Fate actually live up to their roles and come as likeable and centric characters. Now of course they are not perfect because, let’s be honest, the Nanoha franchise is not exactly Shakespearian on its writing. But does deliver some good moments and likeable characters. I just say Hayate and Graham are not as strong as they could be without saying I dislike any of them at all, is a simple observation over them.

And well, Keroko, everything is opinion based really. For that matter the series does what you can like while I can’t and we both had our reasons for it. Is call having an opinion. So no, you have no more right to say what is good or what is bad than I do, because is base on opinion. However we can bring arguments to such opinions and really we all have an idea of what story telling could be as fans. But let’s be honest here, you say the series give me what I ask? No really. You perceive that is what I mean but even when the series never really goes where I will like to, I mean this is not my fanfic or anything, could at least keep interested in what was going on. And my main complain is that StrkerS, Force and ViVid are not doing that at all. Hey even the SSX could at least keep me interested in the first CD.

And what will I like on the ongoing Nanoha series? How about more Nanoha to start?
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Old 2013-02-19, 12:32   Link #356
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*Slaps forehead*

And THIS is why I called you almost as bad as Aki.

And the only reason I said THAT is because we've dealt with Aki's problems with force for over 2 years now.

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But no, Graham is not an antagonist
Then what do you call him?

Because, where I'm sitting, he was the one behind a lot of A's. His whole plan hinged on making Hayate lose control so he could freeze her between the dimensions forever.

Hmm... Not an antagonist, huh?

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Because we had to twin cats doing the work for him
Look up the term "The Dragon" sometime.
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Old 2013-02-19, 12:39   Link #357
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Also keep in mind that "Antagonist" doesn't equal "Evil". Graham was the antagonist but he was in no way evil or the like; he did what he did in an effort to stop the Book of Darkness in the only way he knew how, and hated doing something like that to Hayate.
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Old 2013-02-19, 12:55   Link #358
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No when you consider the climax happen without him doing anything.
What version of As did you see, exactly?
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Old 2013-02-19, 12:59   Link #359
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Again you miss the point. Like I say he is just kind of not important all things consider when the climax is going on and he it’s just sit on his office. Guys what you don’t get it is how the character can be really perceive as passive for all the things he is doing and that I what I mean. I say he is not that important and even not essential because he lacks passion on his action and that makes me look at him at one dude who has to do stuff but as the one who does this for motives. Not saying he lacks motives but more he is just boring expressing his ideas and doing things too much in the shadow to be actually an essential part of the overall story. He could show more his pain and guilt over his actions and really just express why he was so invested on sealing the book. Instead he just kind of says it and I don’t get anything from him. So, yes, he fills his role but he lacks any passion about it so I kind of like don’t mind him being take out because he was just not that much.
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Old 2013-02-19, 13:01   Link #360
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Again you miss the point. Like I say he is just kind of not important all things consider when the climax is going on and he it’s just sit on his office
Ahem. You can't really refute that no matter how many times you say he didn't.

Last edited by Daniel E.; 2013-02-19 at 13:28.
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