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Old 2013-04-02, 14:05   Link #481
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
[citation needed]

Seriously, there's franchises with low merchandising that continued making series with lesser numbers.
Because Seven Arcs is in the business of making money. You can bet that if they thought they could make money with a Nanoha anime series, they would make one. It's not really that hard to deduce.

As for lesser series, they could have smaller budgets, or are experimental one-offs that were only designed to last one season just to see.
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Old 2013-04-02, 15:03   Link #482
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That's not deduction, that's speculation. The DVD sales of Nanoha have only been increasing each season and they're producing more merchandise than ever before.

Your logic about why they stopped making anime series relies solely upon the reasoning that it's no longer profitable, which the sales dispute.
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Old 2013-04-02, 15:18   Link #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
That's not deduction, that's speculation. The DVD sales of Nanoha have only been increasing each season and they're producing more merchandise than ever before.

Your logic about why they stopped making anime series relies solely upon the reasoning that its no longer profitable, which the sales dispute.
When you eliminate the impossible, all that remains, however improbable, must be the answer. Actually, in this case, it is more that you eliminate the answers with no evidence behind them. What you are left with, even ifyou think it improbable, is still the answer by logical deduction. Again, if it was commercially viable for Seven Arcs to make a series, they would. It might contain some speculation, but thoroughly based in normal market and company behavior.

To ignore this, is to ignore the very concept of why a company is in business: to make money. This is the very foundation of our economic system. You'd have to have a damn good reason to counter that logical deduction. True, it might not be correct... but absent any other explanation that has evidence behind it, that is the default answer.

Remember, profit is revenue minus costs. Another way to look at it, is that Seven Arcs was making more money with each season, but due to costs, wasn't actually making any profit. After three seasons, someone finally said, "Hey, we ain't makin' much on this after three seasons. Time to pull the plug and focus on things that make money, like manga and maybe movies."
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Old 2013-04-02, 15:37   Link #484
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
When you eliminate the impossible all that remains, however improbable, must be the answer.
And therein lies the flaw in your logic. You do not eliminate the impossible, nor even the things with "no evidence", you only eliminate whatever does not fit your point of view.

There are legions of series and movies that remained dormant on TV and cinemas before suddenly coming back with another series. Star Wars went without a movie for 16 years, the DC universe has an even more consistent habit of waiting a bit and then throwing another DC series on TV and the anime scene is no stranger to this tactic either. Gundam, macross, Strike Witches, Sora no Otoshimono, these are but a few I remember from the top of my head that had years of nothing or one or several movies and OVA's in between series, but I am quite confident the list will only grow.

And how in the forty seven blue blazes of hell do you even justify your logic that StrikerS wasn't making them money? It sold over four times as well as the first season. Season one was profitable enough to warrant season 2, which was profitable enough to warrant season 3. Do you have any explanation why StrikerS "supposedly" didn't make more money despite being the best selling season of them all?

Less theories presented as facts, more actual fact backing up your theories please. Otherwise they remain just that: Theories.
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Old 2013-04-02, 15:48   Link #485
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Keroko, you can NOT, by ANY means, use star Wars, DC, Gundam or Macross in your argument about series being dormant for years, because ANY of those will undermine your argument.

Do you have ANY idea how many times the original Star Wars trilogy was re-released over the course of 28 years? Any new media that we got for Star Wars was E.U. in books that were licensed by Lucas, but were written by other authors.

Really, it wasn't the media that kept Star Wars alive, it was the fans there.

And DC, they do NOT make their money off of their animated series, they make it off of the comics and movies. I mean, sure they lucked out with Bruce Timm there, but if you take a look at the comics, DC incorporated Timm's versions of Mr. Freeze and Harley Quinn into DC canon. DC, like Marvel, makes most of the money off of the comic sales, not TV.

Macross is a HUGE series in Japan and we have Robotech here in America. Either way, they still are able to make a ton of money easily despite being off the air for years.

And Gundam? Come on, Keroko, that's the WORST example you could use of a series that goes dormant for years on end. That franchise gets a new series every year that lasts a good 40-60 episodes.
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Old 2013-04-02, 16:05   Link #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And therein lies the flaw in your logic. You do not eliminate the impossible, nor even the things with "no evidence", you only eliminate whatever does not fit your point of view.
Because that is how markets work. That's basic economics 101. Here's another one:

Quote:
And how in the forty seven blue blazes of hell do you even justify your logic that StrikerS wasn't making them money? It sold over four times as well as the first season. Season one was profitable enough to warrant season 2, which was profitable enough to warrant season 3. Do you have any explanation why StrikerS "supposedly" didn't make more money despite being the best selling season of them all?
Let's say S1 costs $100 to make. It actually costs much more, but I'm using small even numbers to make things easy. And here are some other costs, using small numbers to showcase a point:

S1 cost: $100
S1 revenue: $75

A's cost: $150
A's revenue: $100

StrikerS cost: $200
StrikerS revenue: $150

And along comes people who say, "StrikerS made the most money out of all them! So why'd they cancel it?" Answer: Profit = Revenue - Cost. In this case, they lost money on each of them, and someone eventually said: "Forget it, this isn't making us money. We're losing money. Let's quit this and focus on stuff with higher returns."

Note: it may not actually be Seven Arcs themselves that loses money. If the networks that purchase the shows are the ones losing money via losing viewership during those time slots, they may have said, "Look, Seven Arcs, it may be profitable for you to sell DVDs, but we're losing viewers putting it on TV. Sorry, not buying it anymore."

Hence, you can have "high" DVD sales, but ultimately low viewership, or declining viewership. In which case, Seven Arcs cannot make another Nanoha series because it can't convince any networks that it can attract sufficient viewers. The original argument was that Nanoha was supposed to be incredibly popular. If it were, it could get another anime series. But someone is losing money here, and that's why we aren't getting one.

This is what the industry is like, Keroko. This is industry + economics. You can make all the money you want, but if your costs are higher, it makes business sense to kill it before you kill your company.

Quote:
Less theories presented as facts, more actual fact backing up your theories please. Otherwise they remain just that: Theories.
Theories based on sound economic principles, and how the entertainment industry works. This is 101 basic level stuff. So I will say again: it is not commercially viable to produce another Nanoha anime series. If it were, Seven Arcs would do it. They are in the business of making money, after all.

Or let me put it to you with one simple question: Do you want to make money?
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Old 2013-04-02, 16:20   Link #487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Because that is how markets work. That's basic economics 101. Here's another one:

Let's say S1 costs $100 to make. It actually costs much more, but I'm using small even numbers to make things easy. And here are some other costs, using small numbers to showcase a point:

S1 cost: $100
S1 revenue: $75

A's cost: $150
A's revenue: $100

StrikerS cost: $200
StrikerS revenue: $150

And along comes people who say, "StrikerS made the most money out of all them! So why'd they cancel it?" Answer: Profit = Revenue - Cost. In this case, they lost money on each of them, and someone eventually said: "Forget it, this isn't making us money. We're losing money. Let's quit this and focus on stuff with higher returns."
Given that I have made a similar point for the movie, I will concede the possibility. However, I will repeat that this is still a theory, as we know nothing about the budgets of the various seasons. A theory to prove a theory proves nothing in the end. Plus, if StrikerS already had such a massive loss in revenue, how could they possibly justify the even greater cost of making a movie?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Theories based on sound economic principles, and how the entertainment industry works. This is 101 basic level stuff. So I will say again: it is not commercially viable to produce another Nanoha anime series. If it were, Seven Arcs would do it. They are in the business of making money, after all.

Or let me put it to you with one simple question: Do you want to make money?
Economic principles which the market in question has repeatedly shown to defy many times in the past do not make for a solid theory.

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Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Keroko, you can NOT, by ANY means, use star Wars, DC, Gundam or Macross in your argument about series being dormant for years, because ANY of those will undermine your argument.

Do you have ANY idea how many times the original Star Wars trilogy was re-released over the course of 28 years? Any new media that we got for Star Wars was E.U. in books that were licensed by Lucas, but were written by other authors.

Really, it wasn't the media that kept Star Wars alive, it was the fans there.

And DC, they do NOT make their money off of their animated series, they make it off of the comics and movies. I mean, sure they lucked out with Bruce Timm there, but if you take a look at the comics, DC incorporated Timm's versions of Mr. Freeze and Harley Quinn into DC canon. DC, like Marvel, makes most of the money off of the comic sales, not TV.

Macross is a HUGE series in Japan and we have Robotech here in America. Either way, they still are able to make a ton of money easily despite being off the air for years.

And Gundam? Come on, Keroko, that's the WORST example you could use of a series that goes dormant for years on end. That franchise gets a new series every year that lasts a good 40-60 episodes.
I do not see how this denies my point. All of these series went dormant for years at times, yet eventually got new series again.

Any franchise is kept alive by its fans. Without fans, there is no profit. Nanoha has shown it has fans keeping the franchise alive, as every single one of the currently running products is being bought. Ergo, there is no reason to assume there "won't" be any new series.

Precedent for what we see here exists. Will there be a new series? I don't know. But to claim there will be none just because there hasn't be one for a while? Conclusion jumping.
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Old 2013-04-02, 16:26   Link #488
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^ No matter what, you can't compare those level 0-1 series (seen by public and known to public) to a level 2 series like Nanoha (seen in the hardcore circles). XD
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Old 2013-04-02, 16:34   Link #489
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Which still leaves series like Sora no otoshimono and Strike Witches. Hardly the most public series, yet these also went through a period of series, no series, series, no series. Sora no Otoshimono even had a movie after its second season, and now season 3 is on the horizon.
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Old 2013-04-02, 17:07   Link #490
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There's no question - none - that if KyoAni made more Haruhi anime, there would be profits to be had. It would definitely be less risky than doing something experimental like Tamako Market.

And yet, KyoAni has not made more Haruhi anime in some time.

The anime industry is often a weird industry, that makes decisions that can go against the grain. I don't doubt that 7-Arcs has its reasons for not making more Nanoha anime. But it's not impossible for that reason to be something other than commercial concerns.
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Old 2013-04-02, 17:15   Link #491
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Oh, where is that image that sums up the anime industry?

Right here.

So, if you think it's cheap, view the chart.

Spoiler for Size:
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Old 2013-04-02, 17:51   Link #492
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Yeah, it costs a ton. Not a decision you take lightly.
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Old 2013-04-02, 17:59   Link #493
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So, StrikerS cost, at bare minimum, 260 million yen and could go upwards of 340 million yen for the series run.
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Old 2013-04-02, 18:06   Link #494
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So, roughly 3 million dollar? Hmm, I wonder what the exact budget for the movies were... anyone got numbers on those?
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Old 2013-04-02, 18:12   Link #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Given that I have made a similar point for the movie, I will concede the possibility. However, I will repeat that this is still a theory, as we know nothing about the budgets of the various seasons. A theory to prove a theory proves nothing in the end. Plus, if StrikerS already had such a massive loss in revenue, how could they possibly justify the even greater cost of making a movie?
Because, as I stated before, you can easily reap more money back via a movie. To profit from a series, you need a network, or multiple networks, to buy a license that will cover the cost of making the series. So:

license(s) > cost, in order to make a profit. Of course, this is also taking into account DVD sales. Even if the license(s) don't make up for it, you can break even or make a profit if you sell enough DVDs. But if the networks don't want your show because of low viewership (and hence, the network can't charge as much for advertising), then you can't support it on DVDs alone. If Nanoha was so popular, that DVD sales were enough, they could release OVA's and profit that way. They don't do that, either.

For a movie, it is different. Seven Arcs can more directly reap ticket revenue, and since their hardcore fanboys will go see it multiple times, they can profit off a single person more often. So a movie will actually be a better option for a smaller, but more hardcore audience (especially if they can encourage people to see it multiple times). I wouldn't doubt that ticket revenue far outstrips what Seven Arcs can get for selling licenses, so with DVD sales being equal, the winner is the movie format.

Quote:
Economic principles which the market in question has repeatedly shown to defy many times in the past do not make for a solid theory.
True. But, as I also stated, you need a damn good reason to disregard market economic forces. To date, I haven't heard any reason good enough yet. Well, except for the other possibility I mentioned, and that is whether Tsuzuki's contract gives him strong enough creative control, that he can decide what happens. Creators tend to be more protective of what they make; Negima's author abruptly ended his manga series in order to retain control of it, before a certain law went into effect.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There's no question - none - that if KyoAni made more Haruhi anime, there would be profits to be had. It would definitely be less risky than doing something experimental like Tamako Market.

And yet, KyoAni has not made more Haruhi anime in some time.

The anime industry is often a weird industry, that makes decisions that can go against the grain. I don't doubt that 7-Arcs has its reasons for not making more Nanoha anime. But it's not impossible for that reason to be something other than commercial concerns.
I am not familiar with KyoAni and Haruhi on an industry scale. As I mentioned before, sometimes the creator holds rights and wants to take a break, or have creative control over content. And sometimes, as much as you might like to believe otherwise, they believe that they won't make money on another series. I've lost count of the tons of anime series that have seemingly done well, only to never get a season 2. Bleach was fairly popular, and yet was cancelled.

If you only knew how much companies spend on researching the market, getting facts and figures to determine whether something will sell enough to make a profit. Setting up focus groups, doing surveys, following day-to-day merch sales down to the yen.

If Seven Arcs or KyoAni thought they could make money on a series, they'd do it. And another series, like Tamako, doesn't quite have bearing on whether they put out something different. Most companies realize that you innovate or die, so you constantly have to try new things to see if something catches on. It's part of the risk of the industry. It doesn't stop them from putting out something Haruhi if they wanted, and running both at the same time.
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Old 2013-04-02, 18:50   Link #496
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One problem; networks rarely pay for anime. It's usually the other way around...anime producers BUY slots from the network as promotion for advertising.
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Old 2013-04-02, 19:44   Link #497
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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Ah, the real truth. Before, you were just about Fate and said you didn't care about NanoFate so much. But we see this isn't the case.
Where did you get that idea? I just don't think of the two as a single entity. Fate works fine for me solo. Yet there is no denying how well their dynamic is portrayed. And I love to see the subtle development between the two.


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Quite simple then.. we make Chrono and Lindy main characters! Then we give equal time to them to develop as well! Perfect, thanks! ...that's exactly what we were endeavoring to do with our movie ruminations.
But they're not main characters, they never have been.


Quote:
*sigh* Yes, you have somewhat of a point, in that it depends on how someone uses the screentime they have, but then again, not really. After Fate arrives, Nanoha only has a few scenes by herself.
I think we went over this many times before, but I'll say it again. The battles. Fate has a few, short battles. Nanoha has more battles, and each and every one is longer than Fate's. Other than that, there are some other transition scenes where Fate is not with her. Like when she's preparing for the reunion at the beginning, or while she was at the roof top, prior to Vita's arrival. And honestly, the series was no different. Fate is the same way, she has a few small fights, some development, and the rest is screen time with Nanoha. You clearly forget all of the many NanoFate scenes the series had which do not exist in this movie. Why should the movie drastically diminish what the series had a ton of?

Quote:
She exists now, purely for Fate.
To be frank, that's not how a relationship works, Kaijo. Whether it be friends or lovers -- they exist for each other.

Quote:
But how do you take away action scenes from Chrono to develop him as a character? He has exactly one: joining the gang in beating up on Cthulu, where he casts exactly one spell. So, you want us to cut his 10-15 seconds of action time, if those people who like Chrono, want to see him get some development?
I never used Chrono or any other minor character in my example. I merely stated that if you want to start sapping Fate's screen time away to develop minor characters, you should be doing it to the other main characters as well. That is true objectivity.


Quote:
By the way, what happened to you charting the screentime each character has? If you don't in the next few days, I just might. Because...
You're more than welcome to help. I'm only like fifteen minutes in.


Quote:
So, explain why it is, then. Don't just make the accusation and walk away. The problem is quantity. Let me pull some numbers to make a point. Let's say Fate has 1.5 hours of screen time, and Chrono has 10 minutes of screen time. And I want to take 10 minutes away from Fate to give 10 minutes to Chrono. Overly simplified, since Fate would also get some develoment out of that 10 minutes, but we're simplifying.
Putting aside the fact that I think 1.5 hrs is a gross overstatement to her screen time...The problem is that Fate's not the only one with an abundance of screen time. Honestly, they could have kept Reinforce the same minor character you somehow preferred in the series, and then given that time to Chrono/Lindy. That alone would be more than enough to develop their character. It may seem like a bad decision now, but hey, it would have just kept faithful to the series. Or alternatively, you could cut a little bit of screen time from all of the main characters, rather than focusing purely on what you could remove from Fate. Fate's not the only one who is part of the 1%, as your analogy so blatantly states.

Quote:
In this scenario, Fate loses only 11% of her screentime, but Chrono's screen time doubles. So, hardly equal. Sure, we could argue for equalityof screentime, but the funny thing is, we aren't even arguing for that. We're like Oliver, asking for a bit more gruel to get enough nutrition, and all we hear in response is the Chef accusingly and angrily saying, "MORE!?"
Again, Fate's not the only "wealthy" one in this movie. If you're going to take from the rich and give to the poor, then at least be fair about it.


Quote:
Because their fluff is actual development. They need to show how the Wolks become family with Hayate. It is their movie, more than Nanoha or Fate. But I know you're not worried, because I'm willing to bet that, after this movie, you consider Hayate and the Wolks minor characters now. Somehow, the antagonist of the first movie becomes forever a main, but the antagonists of the second movie move into secondary status. Why is that?
Alas, the NanoFate moments too, are development. But I guess you're beyond the point of seeing it in that light. The end of the first season does anything but conclude their relationship. It was the start of a new relationship. One that continues onto 2nd A's, just like it did in the series.
And I've already said that I think Nanoha and Fate are the two mains of the whole franchise, while the other mains have their status for the series they first appeared in. This is just how it's always been. A characters is as significant as Tsuzuki wants them to be. Fate's a minor character in Force and Vivid, and I honestly stopped expecting her to even appear.

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I'm curious now, though... what do you think of shows that have a larger main cast that they focus on? I mean, Natsu and Lucy are technically the main characters of Fairy Tail, but Grey and Erza get development. Hell, even minor characters like Levy and MIrajane get development. Hell, even more minor characters like Evergreen gets development! But, according to you, a show can only have a couple of main characters, so obviously all those other shows are doing something wrong.
Give Nanoha a hundred+ episodes, and then we can talk. Mostly all shounens move at a snails pace, they can afford to develop each and every character. They have the episode count to maintain such a large cast.


Quote:
I said few, not absent. Also not noticable. Most shows with panty shots make it extremely obvious. Nanoha's are more hidden eggs that are only there for a very short time, or have other things in the scene that people will usually focus on.
So eight clear shots of Fate's bare ass isn't enough to qualify?
Not that I personally have anything against it, 'cause y'know, miracle of the universe, etc.


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I didn't think it was in need of a reboot. I thought it was fine as is. But they didn't need to do 2 manga series; they could have easily done a 4th season. Instead, we got once a month manga rather than a 4th season, and somehow, you want to believe that has nothing to do with popularity. If Nanoha were still profitable as an anime series, it would have had a 4th by now. Especially considering Nanoha started as an anime series, whereas most other anime series are based off manga, so can fall back on manga.
Well, they did do two manga series, and that was years ago. To me, it doesn't matter if the series is profitable, because the movies are even more profitable. Why settle for something less profitable?

Also, reading some other debate you're having. StrikerS looked terrible, I don't know why you think the cost to make a StrikerS episode would cost more to fund than a Nanoha a's episode, which looked significantly better.
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Old 2013-04-02, 19:46   Link #498
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But they're not main characters, they never have been.
But even side characters need development, Demi., otherwise you have the biggest complaint from StrikerS...

"None of the new side and secondary characters and antagonists got much development, so I couldn't care about them."
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Old 2013-04-02, 21:08   Link #499
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You're free to want development for each and every minor character, but you still have misdirected blame.
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Old 2013-04-02, 21:24   Link #500
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Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
You're free to want development for each and every minor character, but you still have misdirected blame.
Look, it's not like I'm expecting Randy to get as much development as, say, Chrono...

But, if the movie establishes that Chrono has trauma from the Book of Darkness, shouldn't it get resolved somehow?

granted, the series didn't do a good job with it either, which is probably why I haven't harped on it as much, but...

Demi., minor, secondary and side characters should get development in a series depending on their importance to the plot over-all.

Randy's a bridge bunny who's just there to report on stuff and press buttons, no need to give him much of anything, except you know, his name if you feel like it.

Amy is Chrono's friend and is seen with him a lot. Does she need much development? No. You can just develop her as being a satellite character to Chrono and Lindy if you want to, maybe throw a line in on how she's really good at what she does, and that's all she really needs right now.

Chrono, on the other hand, is a secondary character with ties to the Book of Darkness, so this *IS* something that should have gotten explored in the movie more than it did.

So, who's to blame, Demi. for the characters having limited screen time? I already blame Tsuzki for how screwed up he handled them in the movie.

Ultimately, Demi., regardless of what you, Triple_R or other think, Fate had the most screen time of the A's movie, and when she wasn't on, a lot of time (Lindy and Arf talking comes to mind), it seems to be helping develop Fate.

And, yes, she needs development after S1, I know that. However, what about others? Nanoha STILL has ZERO development in the movies.
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