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Old 2013-04-04, 22:05   Link #621
Kaijo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
This is a clear contradiction in your own argument.

You just argued "Yuuno didn't have any real development needs at that point". If so, isn't that a legitimate reason for him being put on a bus?
Yup. I would have liked to see more of him, but his development into the library and out of the stage light makes sense. Legitmate reason.

Quote:
In any event, you're missing the real reason Arf and Yuuno were put on a bus - There's a limit to how much you can divide combat scenes. StrikerS already had loads to juggle there with no fewer than 7 major different fronts in the same big, climatic battle (Nanoha vs. Vivio, Fate vs. Jail, Eriro/Caro vs. Lutecia and entourage, Teana vs. 3 Numbers, Subaru vs. Ginga, Vita's action scenes, Signum's action scenes). There's simply no room left for Yuuno and Arf. They get put on a bus for much the same reason as Shamal and Zafira did.
I don't understand. Shamal and Zafira *didn't* get put on a bus. They still had combat, and came back to earn their own victory.

Despite some disappointment, I am overall fine with Yuuno's small role in StrikerS, outside of combat. Sure, they could have had him on Midchilda and had a scene of him defending a church or hospital or something against drones. But not really needed. I understand what you're thinking, but plenty of other series have had a lot of people participating in combat. Given how slow some of the earlier episodes were, there was definitely some things that could have been cut for some more Yuuno and Arf.

Quote:
And when a narrative pushes characters like Chrono, Yuuno, and Arf aside to make room for new protagonists, that sends an implicit message to the audience...
I can see what you're thinking, but I have to say, I don't agree. You think moving into the background means people don't care about them as much. But if they moved Fate into the background, you think people would lose interest in her?

All it means is that they move into the background for awhile. They can be brought back. I didn't receive any implicit message about them being not needed or anything. A story can easily be written that concerns danger in the library, bringing Yuuno some screentime. Or Arf has some familiar problem that brings her back, or danger threatens Karel and Liera and she has to defend them.

I don't think I'm the only one who failed to get any implicit message, other than they would have interfered with NanoFate. And to be honest, I only got that message long after StrikerS, after learning there was a huge NanoFate faction, and the history and feelings behind all that.
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Old 2013-04-04, 22:09   Link #622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Yeah, and a big part of that was back story to Precia and Alicia which Fate was largely not a part of. Even so, if a character has enough screen time, they can use it to develop, if the writer/director so wishes it. Nanoha didn't need more screen time, she simply needed to use some that she did have for a different purpose.

And are we really going to keep at this? 'Cause y'know, I thought once I re-watched the whole movie and confirmed that Fate did not have more than Nanoha, this would have come to its inevitable conclusion.
I didn't say anything about Fate in my post. I just said Nanoha got shafted. So, do you agree Nanoha got shafted in the first movie or not?
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Old 2013-04-04, 22:09   Link #623
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
I think overall what Kaijo was trying to say was, regardless of profit, something happened during StrikerS that seems to have curtailed any animated seasons from being developed, and he's figuring it's something to do with the economics of the franchise.
Which I kinda doubt, since there are many other anime that had long delays (or have) despite their overwhelming popularity. Haruhi (which was brought up several times earlier) and Shakugan No Shana are good examples of this (tho, it could be noted that the sales numbers for the third season of Shakugan No Shana were pretty subpar.)
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Old 2013-04-04, 22:12   Link #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I didn't say anything about Fate in my post. I just said Nanoha got shafted. So, do you agree Nanoha got shafted in the first movie or not?
You have a different view of shafted from my own. To me, shafted is being put on the bus, or at least inching ever so closer to it. If you mean "Did Nanoha develop enough in the first movie" then no, she did not.
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Old 2013-04-04, 22:17   Link #625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
You have a different view of shafted from my own. To me, shafted is being put on the bus, or at least inching ever so closer to it. If you mean "Did Nanoha develop enough in the first movie" then no, she did not.
I think most people here would classify "shafting" as a character losing a lot of what they had before. Though I suppose "shafting" could imply being put on a bus, too, so defining terms is helpful.
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Old 2013-04-04, 22:17   Link #626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
If you mean "Did Nanoha develop enough in the first movie" then no, she did not.
That's pretty much being shafted there. Even if you get screen time, if you're not getting development, you're getting shafted.

Both Yuuno and Nanoha suffered from that in the 1st movie pretty badly.
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Old 2013-04-04, 22:24   Link #627
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Call it what you want then, but my point still stands that it was very possible to use some of the screen time she did have for development. Though I think more people appreciate Nanoha for her guts and fighting prowess than her development. So they're perfectly happy the way she was treated.
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Old 2013-04-04, 22:39   Link #628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Call it what you want then, but my point still stands that it was very possible to use some of the screen time she did have for development. Though I think more people appreciate Nanoha for her guts and fighting prowess than her development. So they're perfectly happy the way she was treated.
Problem is, that development that you think more people don't care about, is the reason she has those guts and determination.
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Old 2013-04-04, 22:52   Link #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Call it what you want then, but my point still stands that it was very possible to use some of the screen time she did have for development. Though I think more people appreciate Nanoha for her guts and fighting prowess than her development. So they're perfectly happy the way she was treated.
True, dat. Micheal Bay proved that all you have to do is fancy explosions, and people will forgive everything else.
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Old 2013-04-04, 23:29   Link #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
In the 1st movie, Nanoha reached out to Fate because she had pretty eyes.
Nanoha herself has pretty eyes, too



So does Yuuno, come to think



This leads me to the conclusion that many characters from the Nanoha franchise have pretty eyes.
The only question that remains is whether this is a coincidence... or a conspiracy.
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Old 2013-04-05, 07:35   Link #631
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It's kinda funny, but even anime fans have noted that the Nanoha cast has even larger eyes than normal, and some were disturbed by that. However, Fate's eyes are the only ones that matter, apparently.
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Old 2013-04-05, 08:42   Link #632
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I think she mentioned Fate's "Sad, beautiful eyes"

To quote her, "Raising heart is giving me power to save the girls in tears!"

Yeah she too, has a tragic fetish.
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Old 2013-04-05, 08:56   Link #633
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Poor little lost Fate? Check.

Poor little lost Vita? Check.

Poor little lost Subaru? Check.

Poor little lost Teana? Check.

Poor little lost Vivio? Check.

Poor little lost Thoma? Check.

Yup, fetish for tragic people in despair confirmed.
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Old 2013-04-05, 11:15   Link #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Most of those things you listed, people enjoyed though.
People enjoy chocolate. That doesn't mean chocolate belongs on a turkey sandwhich.

Good Fate scenes and NanaFate scenes are good, but perhaps don't have a place in a movie (due to tight time-straints of the medium) where Hayate and the Wolkenritter are not only more important to the plot, but also didn't have a previous movie for major-character development time.

I enjoyed the lengthy scene in the first Bayformers movie where the Autobots are ducking and twisting around the Witwicky house to avoid being seen by Sam's parents, but I would cut it out in an instant to have a character-building scene between the Tranformers.

I likewise enjoyed all of the early scenes in which Bumblebee didn't let a lack of Volkswagon get in the way of roleplaying Herbie the Love Bug, but I'd likewise cut those scenes out in an instant to replace them with prologue scenes of Bumblebee having his voicebox ripped out by Megatron on Cybertron while he stalled him long enough to let the Allspark launch into space.

Because I came to see a movie about the Transformers, not a "boy gets his first car" story. Or a romance story between The Human Buddy and his love interest. Mikelea's scenes were good, but they were unnecessary. *

Likewise, I would watch the Second Nanoha Movie for Hayate and the Wolkenritter and the Book of Darkness, not for Fate. Fate and her relationship with Nanoha was the subject of the first movie, and any supplemental materials which might bridge the two movies, but was not the point of the second movie.


* Sam should have been Spike Witwicky, greasemonkey and gearhead, and he should have been towing Bumblebee into battle while Optimus won the fight on his own (or with a heroic sacrifice from Jazz).

Last edited by Sunder the Gold; 2013-04-05 at 14:57.
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Old 2013-04-05, 11:25   Link #635
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Well, even if that is true I think could be bad writing rather than scenes than don’t belong there. For better or worse Nanoha and Fate’s relationship was a major theme on the previous Movie and just not addressing it at all will be odd, so scenes like those will be need to keep the theme going. If is for pointless scenes the Movie A’s had a lot of them that exited just to show some characters doing something and then jump in the next scene that has no relationship with the previous one.
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Old 2013-04-05, 14:47   Link #636
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In this post, I refute both Kaijo AND Triple R regarding Arf and Yuuno.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Count me as one of the few that didn't feel StrikerS diminished anything. Yes, a bit upset Yuuno and Arf got pushed into the background, but they didn't have any real developmental needs at that point.
If you think that, then you must think that neither Nanoha or Fate had any "developmental needs" after A's, either.

If seeing how Nanoha's and Fate's careers turned out was a "need", then Yuuno had that as well. His job as a Librarian is at least as important to the TSAB as Fate's job as an investigator or Nanoha's job as a trainer, and his combat skills are likewise just as valuable.

Arf, by the way, was uniquely suited to follow Fate in her career path as an Enforcer.

The drain of maintaining and fueling a powerful familiar would be neglible for a mage as powerful as Fate, considering that her job should NEVER involve battles so protracted where the drain would make a diffference. If anything, Arf would provide a way to use Fate's mana more advantageously, accomplishing twice as many things at once without needing to channel twice as much mana at once.

Further, as a dog, Arf would make an excellent companion for investigating crimes on the ground, to say nothing of her combat support when arrests turn hairy. No one else would know how fight in concert with Fate so well.

The investigative scenes that Fate should have had in StrikerS should have included Arf helping her with the leg-work of the case, and Fate's final battle with Tre, Sette and Jail should have included Arf as her partner.

Arf's "developmental needs" would continue to grow after Fate takes Teana on as an assistant; the franchise would need to explore the relationship between the familiar and the apprentice, with Arf taking on a big sister role to the junior gingerhead.


Quote:
They obviously aren't going to address any romantic angles with regard to the cast, so other than that, Yuuno didn't have any hinted at areas where he could develop. Other than seeing him battle as his hinted at incredible powers.
You're forgetting his background exposition scene with Nanoha in the first season. Which is understandable, since it was so long ago and has never been explored any further.

His clan is the one big glaring angle. The clan that raised him yet left him feeling "all alone from the beginning". The clan that let him run after the Jewel Seeds alone without any support, and whom apparently haven't tried to contact him since.

Did they all die? Did the news of their untimely deaths hit Yuuno hard?

Are they still alive? What do they think of Yuuno's career choice?

Even forgetting his clan, what sort of relationship did Yuuno forge with the Yagami family? He must have interviewed the Wolkenritter about their histories, and Hayate said she was going to enlist his help to create Reinforce Zwei. Vita should have gotten her rematch, and Shamal's and Zafira's areas of expertise are very close to Yuuno's own in their own ways. (Plus, Yuuno is the mage mostly likely to get tapped for teaching Signum, Vita and Zafira how to cast non-lethal capture-type spells.)

Yuuno had a purpose from the very beginning of StrikerS thanks to the Relics. As the TSAB's foremost expert on Lost Logia, he should have been the one telling us whatever he knows about them.

Likewise, he was a much better choice for teaching the Forwards about the specifics of defense spells. He would have been an excellent teacher for Caro on the finer points of being a Fullback.

He could take Vice's place as the one who relates to Teana, if he's ever felt self-conscious about his deficiencies as a mage, or about how he compares to the elite mages whom are his closest friends. (This on top of replacing Vice as the man who transports the Aces and Forwards to the hotspots.)


Quote:
Besides, you're not seeing the reason why Arf, Yuuno, Arisa, and Suzuka were put on a bus... Because a lot of Fate fans hate Yuuno for being competition. And without Arisa and Suzuka, Nanoha would only have Fate to turn to. And without Arf, Fate would only have Nanoha to turn to. They were casualties to emphasize the NanoFate dynamic to sell stuff to the fanatics.
All true.

Well, less so for Arisa and Suzuka; they already had career paths back on Earth which had nothing to do with magic or the TSAB. It made sense that they would just stay on Earth, which means that they had nothing to do with Midchilda or Jail.


Quote:
Even Vice, a freakin' secondary side character, got some development with minimal screentime! It's really not that hard to do, though I suppose you could have cut the Vice scenes for more NanoFate focus in StrikerS. Might it have fared better then? Maybe. But look at what we got with Vice instead? Wasn't that worth it?
Vice was ham placed in a turkey sandwich. Something very good that was unnecessary, because the sandwich already had all the required ingredients.

The franchise already had Yuuno, and should have used Yuuno for anything that Vice did, as well as everything that Verossa did.

Vice was the best thing to come from that mistake. Verossa was one of the worst.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
you're missing the real reason Arf and Yuuno were put on a bus - There's a limit to how much you can divide combat scenes.

There's simply no room left for Yuuno and Arf.
Absolutely not true.

It would be trivially easy to rewrite Fate's final battle such that Yuuno rather than Verossa is the one to save the day by stopping Uno from blowing the place up.

Likewise, Arf could have assisted Fate against Tre and Sette before taking on both of them herself so that Fate could go after Jail. Or Arf (or Yuuno), rather than Vice, could have been the one who rescued Teana from that one last Number.

Yuuno and/or Arf could have also replaced Vice as the one last mage left at Riot Force 6's base, defending Vivio.

Or Yuuno or Arf could have replaced Sister Shache as the one who takes down Sein. That was really all Shache got to do in the season anyways, so what purpose did she really serve? Any faceless, nameless background body could have made and served tea.

During the training episodes, Fate and Arf together could even have given Caro and Friedliche pointers on how a mage and her familiar ought to fight together as one. (Which would have doubled for exposition on the advantages of combat familiars.) And again, Yuuno was a natural choice for teaching Caro about how a support mage needs to fight, as well as teaching all of the Forwards about defense spells.

Yuuno also had common ground with Caro, as one who grew up alone in a clan and was abandoned.


Quote:
And when a narrative pushes characters like Chrono, Yuuno, and Arf aside to make room for new protagonists, that sends an implicit message to the audience...
Yeah. "We want to minimize complications to the romantic teasing."

Or, "We're just not interested in these characters anymore, so rather than explore ways in which they can stay relevant, we're explicitly going to find ways and excuses to make them irrelevant."

And before you say it, No, the creators being uninterested in a character doesn't make that character uninteresting.

I'm not interested in Noir-style investigative crime dramas. That doesn't make the genre uninteresting; it only means that I would attempt to avoid writing for such a genre, or that my attempts at writing it would be lackluster without a change of attitude.

Even if a character WAS uninteresting, ANY character can be made interesting by an author with any sort of talent or motivation. This is no different from how interesting characters can be made dull and one-dimensional by bad or bored writers.
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Old 2013-04-05, 16:52   Link #637
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I'm just going to address these two points, since I've wasted more than enough time with the former.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post



All true.

.
This is what I have a problem with. All these baseless assumptions while absolute refusal to believe any other possibility.



Quote:
Absolutely not true.

It would be trivially easy to rewrite Fate's final battle such that Yuuno rather than Verossa is the one to save the day by stopping Uno from blowing the place up.
Right, because Yuuno saving the day when it has no baring on the NanoFate dynamic is more hurtful to those fans than Erio saving Fate bridal style...And if you don't think fans would see Erio as a threat, think again.

Quote:
Likewise, Arf could have assisted Fate against Tre and Sette before taking on both of them herself so that Fate could go after Jail. Or Arf (or Yuuno), rather than Vice, could have been the one who rescued Teana from that one last Number.
What does Arf even have to do with the NanoFate dynamic? Is Fate going to have kinky sex with her familiar while Nanoha is away? In-fact, what does Teana being saved have anything to do with their relationship at all? I'm getting the vibe that you think any of these characters on-screen at all is a malicious threat to the NanoFate shippers. It makes no logical sense.

Quote:
Yuuno and/or Arf could have also replaced Vice as the one last mage left at Riot Force 6's base, defending Vivio.
Someone's not a Vice fan, I see.

Quote:
Or Yuuno or Arf could have replaced Sister Shache as the one who takes down Sein. That was really all Shache got to do in the season anyways, so what purpose did she really serve? Any faceless, nameless background body could have made and served tea.
Again, how does any of this have relevance to your point? As long as none of the aforementioned characters mingle with Nanoha or Fate it should be fine, shouldn't it?

Quote:
During the training episodes, Fate and Arf together could even have given Caro and Friedliche pointers on how a mage and her familiar ought to fight together as one. (Which would have doubled for exposition on the advantages of combat familiars.) And again, Yuuno was a natural choice for teaching Caro about how a support mage needs to fight, as well as teaching all of the Forwards about defense spells.
Finally, one of the aforementioned meets up one that shall not be named. Okay, if you want to exclusively believe that's why this scene never came up, then power to you.


Quote:
Yeah. "We want to minimize complications to the romantic teasing."

Or, "We're just not interested in these characters anymore, so rather than explore ways in which they can stay relevant, we're explicitly going to find ways and excuses to make them irrelevant."
I'm leaning towards the latter point, because none of your suggestions even remotely hinted at "romantic teasing." The goal set would be to keep them away from the prying eyes of NanoFate, not to diminish their screen time to null.

Also that scene where Nanoha and Yuno were blushing at eachother, that wasn't throwing Yuunoha shippers a bone, that was throwing them a T-bone steak, and is exactly the kind of stuff the NanoFate shippers are revolted by. But alas, Tsuzuki did it anyways!

And lets not forget that Subaru clearly had the hots for Nanoha, even if it was never reciprocated.


Quote:
Even if a character WAS uninteresting, ANY character can be made interesting by an author with any sort of talent or motivation. This is no different from how interesting characters can be made dull and one-dimensional by bad or bored writers.
True, but that takes effort as compared to a character(s) that has already been tried and true interesting, and you know Tsuzuki !=effort
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Old 2013-04-05, 18:35   Link #638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
I think she mentioned Fate's "Sad, beautiful eyes"

To quote her, "Raising heart is giving me power to save the girls in tears!"

Yeah she too, has a tragic fetish.
"The one thing that worries me, is that girl with the pretty and kind eyes."

...um, yeah. Even if we accept the tragic fetish angle, we have no backstory as to how she came to be that way, at least in the movies. In the series, she had her backstory with Arisa and Suzuka. In the movie, it's just Nanoha being seduced by eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
If you think that, then you must think that neither Nanoha or Fate had any "developmental needs" after A's, either.
Let me be clear here... yes, I know there are things they could do with Yuuno and Arf to develop them. But after A's, there wasn't anything lingering that they could have addressed. I, for one, would have loved it to see them still in action in StrikerS. But a need is different than a want. Some people haven't figured that out yet (not talking about you).

Well, the only major thing would have been to develop Nanoha and Yuuno romantically, but I think by that point, Tsuzuki realized the Fate fanatics would have never stood for that, so putting Yuuno on a bus was the only thing he could do, and then decided to just never address anything about Nanoha romantically at all. He doesn't really want to do two women, so subtext is all it is ever going to get to.

But I do agree that Yuuno and Arf could have had some development. I don't think Yuuno could have replaced Vice, since Yuuno is a barrier mage and not a sniper, meaning he wouldn't have that link with Teana. On second thought, it might have made a nice development angle if he had injured someone when he was first learning shooting magic, and had made a vow long ago to never use it again.

All the things you mentioned are good angles that could have been used, although I don't see Yuuno as a helicopter pilot. But that could be filled by Alto (and perhaps Arisa, per the below). But his clan wasn't mentioned in the movie. Although he would still have had to have a family, so I suppose they could have explored that angle some.

Quote:
All true.

Well, less so for Arisa and Suzuka; they already had career paths back on Earth which had nothing to do with magic or the TSAB. It made sense that they would just stay on Earth, which means that they had nothing to do with Midchilda or Jail.
I always thought Suzuka could have replaced Shari, and Arisa could have replaced Alto. In fact, I think those roles were going to initially be cast for those two (normals who still serve in the TSAB), but again, they would have been people Nanoha would have turned to, like when Vivio was kidnapped. But he needed Fate to play mama as well, and for Nanoha to turn to being hugged by Fate, instead of comforted by her two oldest friends. They were indirect casualties of war, in an effort to get the fanatic base salivating.

And that's how it will ever go; dangle the bell in front of their noses, but never pay it off.
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Old 2013-04-05, 18:49   Link #639
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
"The one thing that worries me, is that girl with the pretty and kind eyes."

...um, yeah. Even if we accept the tragic fetish angle, we have no backstory as to how she came to be that way, at least in the movies. In the series, she had her backstory with Arisa and Suzuka. In the movie, it's just Nanoha being seduced by eyes.

Could have sworn there was a scene where Nanoha specifically states Fate's sad eyes, but eh I'll download later and see if I can find it.

I have a tragic fetish and no back story to go with it.
Different strokes for different folks.
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Old 2013-04-05, 18:51   Link #640
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She only has that scene in the original season, Demi., but not in the movie.
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