AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Nanoha

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-04-05, 22:57   Link #661
Nanya01
Left for TFF
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Frozen Hell of the North
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to Nanya01
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Face A married Face B, and no one gave a damn.

If Vice had married Alto, we'd be cheering. Maybe only for Vice's sake, but at least Alto was more memorable than Face A or B.
Yes, well, it was a way to make people wonder, when we found out in Force that two characters got married, if Nanoha and Fate had gotten married.
__________________

My fics Due to certain things, I am not here, find me over on TFF.
Nanya01 is offline  
Old 2013-04-05, 23:12   Link #662
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
I've always had a pet theory that Takahashi intentionally dropped Dr. Tofu.
You're not wrong. She did drop him intentionally, because she realized that if he was around, Ranma and Akane's relationship would have been much smoother. She realized he could do too much to help resolve issues. So it was a very deliberate decision to drop him. And having gone through Ranma 1/2 myself, there wasn't really any characters that were just suddenly dropped like Tofu. Some came and went depending on if the particular story involved them, but that was it.

And now, if you'll pardon me, I'm about to rant. Horribly. Avert your eyes if ye be faint of heart.

I am going to challenge this notion that people somehow stop caring about a character that doesn't show up. That's bullcrap, plain and simple. I know lots of people, a great deal right here, who care about the entire cast of Nanoha. Spend some time in the fanfiction thread, and you will find fics bringing back every single character for various moments of development and awesomeness.

I'm beginning to think that the only place characters in Nanoha are forgotten, are in the minds of NanoFate fans. That because of the sheer emphasis on NanoFate, they just can't see anything else.

Let's take our favorite ferret boy, Yuuno. A barrier mage. While everyone else is offensive-based with shooty bullets or punching, he stands alone as the sole defensive powerhouse with shields and barriers that even Nanoha can't break unless she goes full-bore ballistic. And he does it without a device. To me, that's leagues more impressive than anyone else in the cast. You wanna know why Yuuno isn't there more often? He'd kick everyone else's ass and solve the problem in no time.

Unlike some people, we here in AS see the potential in every character, regardless of what Tsuzuki ultimately does with them. And we can do that, because we don't have tunnel vision to one particular concept, character, or pairing. There is no reason to think that everyone else doesn't care about Yuuno or Arf because they don't show up much anymore. There could be tons of reasons, and popularity polls do show they have some popularity, even if it isn't in the super-high range.

The whole "people don't care because they don't show up" reeks of some sense of self-justification for why they aren't around. "It's okay to not like them, because they don't show up, and no one else likes them since they don't show up, so I am okay in not liking them." It's fine if you don't like a character; but at least let the reason be because you aren't interested in them. You don't need to invent reasons.

I've written many fics, and I've had several requests to have them posted elsewhere, and translated into Spanish, Chinese, and Japanese. In these fics, like Crisis and Future Tense, I used many other characters like Yuuno and Vice, as well as the "mains." And I can tell you, based on the feedback I've gotten, many people are extremely happy to see such characters take the limelight occasionally and get some development. The only negative reviews I've gotten (and it was just a couple from the same person), was someone who was vastly upset that I paired Nanoha, Fate, and Yuuno up in a threesome in Crisis. He was a, you guessed it, NanoFate fan.

So no, I don't see any basis for the belief of "fans not caring because they don't show up." If anything, I see love for Nanoha and Fate because they are moe characters, and a lot of anime otaku react to moe like it was crack. All you need to do is take a vulnerable, cute girl, have horrible things happen to her, and *bam!* instant fanbase. You get a horde of fanatics who will drown out and ignore every other character, in their rush to save the kicked puppy.

*THAT* is the reason other characters eventually fade into the background in this series. And that, is the most damaging thing to the franchise, and to Nanoha and Fate themselves. They can't develop to anything else, because they are held back by a fanbase that wants the same thing over and over. As someone who honestly does like the characters, I'd rather see them cover knew ground and new relationships with other people. Tsuzuki has gone out of his way to create such an interesting, fascinating world... and to focus in on only two characters while shoving others into the background, denies the very nature of his creation. Yet he does it to cash in with the otaku. That is the sole reason other characters are pushed away, and why NanoFate is prominent.

/rant over
Kaijo is offline  
Old 2013-04-05, 23:33   Link #663
Sansker
Manus ad Ferrum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 23
I can actually see your points Kaijo. I will like to add that, in the end, the same passion can be put the other way around. Extras and side characters don’t do that much and we don’t care because rather than potential others might focus on what is actually on screen. So instead of going on a rant of how awesome Yuuno might be, I will just see it as a supporting character but not, by far, something important or that needs to be explore and use more often. If the story wants us to worry and care about characters then they should be use.

What I see there is just a very private reason for liking them. But that is ok, I don’t hate Yuuno and I like NanoFate. But if you want to send Yuuno down my throat then you better use him right, not just put him there and have other fans tell me how awesome he is. Also saying that one can have reasons to care but not reason not to care is like saying there is only the valid argument of appreciation and that the disliking something means all objective reasoning is gone. I don’t know if that is what you want to say, but that is what I am feeling there. So in the end if you like this people is ok, but many other don’t and they roles in the story are small despite of them having potential or not. So why fight over the fact others don’t appreciate how deep something is when it doesn’t play a major role?
__________________
Sansker is offline  
Old 2013-04-05, 23:42   Link #664
Nanya01
Left for TFF
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Frozen Hell of the North
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to Nanya01
Quote:
So why fight over the fact others don’t appreciate how deep something is when it doesn’t play a major role?
Because, Sansker, and this is something that you refuse to see...

Because the fact is, people like Yuuno, Chrono, and even Vice, could have had more of a role, could have been handled better.

Instead, we get a situation where only a few get proper development, then people like you go "huh, well, they're minor, they don't matter at all" and wonder why the rest of us care about them.

Some of us care because there's potential there, and it drives us insane to see the potential wasted on just a few characters, even if they're mains.

It's why the series Naruto is such a failure. Over a year in that series was dedicated almost strictly to Sasuke (of which the Great Snake Escape, Kage battle and Danzo's fight all happened) with little to negative development for others. Negative, you ask? Well, other characters, instead of getting some good development out of it, started backsliding to their most annoying selves from the first part of the series (Sakura, Naruto) and others who SHOULD have just slapped them for being idiots (Kakashi), instead AGREED with them. ARRRGH!
__________________

My fics Due to certain things, I am not here, find me over on TFF.
Nanya01 is offline  
Old 2013-04-05, 23:43   Link #665
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
I am not shoving Yuuno down anyone's throat, and I don't care too much if people don't like him, because his character doesn't appeal to them. I just don't like invented reasons, as some sort of self-justification.

Beyond Yuuno's magic, is his clan (which apparently goes around digging up lost relics all the time), Arf's nature as a familiar and helper to Karel and Liera (the idea of magical twins holds it's own interest, but how many "fans" even know who they are?), Arisa and Suzuka's attitudes and feelings about outer space and a possible role in it, Chrono's emotional trauma, Chrono and Amy's relationship, Lindy and Chrono's relationship with the Yagami-ke, Arf and Zafira's relationship... there are tons of things left to explore.

And regardless of their secondary status, they still have tons of people that like them for what they did show in their limited time on screen. The sheer potential of what they represent... for those that have that imagination. And if someone lacks that imagination, read my Crisis fic or Future Tense, and they'll see characters used in ways that probably never occurred to them. Or, failing that, just spend time in the fanfiction thread, where there are tons of other authors who use more than just the two "mains."

I can't wait for this moe craze to pass, but something tells me I'll be waiting awhile.
Kaijo is offline  
Old 2013-04-05, 23:48   Link #666
Demi.
Ass connoisseur
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Florida
Age: 27
The moe craze doesn't touch upon every anime, you're simply interested in one with a heavy focus on it.


...And whether you like it or not, that's part of the appeal.
__________________
Demi. is offline  
Old 2013-04-05, 23:50   Link #667
Nanya01
Left for TFF
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Frozen Hell of the North
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to Nanya01
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
The moe craze doesn't touch upon every anime, you're simply interested in one with a heavy focus on it.


...And whether you like it or not, that's part of the appeal.
Name an anime that's come out in the last 10 years that's not mecha or big burly guys beating the tar out of each other a la Fist of the North Star or Berserk, that doesn't have a lot of moe characters.

In fact, moe creeps into Gundam. Go check out Gundam AGE and tell me that the kids there aren't Moe, even if they're male.
__________________

My fics Due to certain things, I am not here, find me over on TFF.
Nanya01 is offline  
Old 2013-04-05, 23:53   Link #668
Sansker
Manus ad Ferrum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 23
Ok, I know people like this characters. I am not an idiot. I just don’t see how that fact can make others like them. Just that Nanya, also about Naruto I am not even going to comment.

Also, Kaijo, they are free to have their reason and the explanation that because they have small roles they don’t matter in the large scale is their own logic. You are saying like if they need to justify this when they really don’t, they are saying their reasons to what they believe which is not different of what you told me. I don’t think there is any need to fight over “I think your reasons aren’t good enough” because that is another debate.

Also, I think you rise good points to explore Kaijo, but they point is that they aren’t explore on the series. So, why should I be happy or concern about “what could it be”? We get something else without those elements so the underplay elements aren’t important to me. And I don’t particularly like that you imply you have better imagination or more creative thoughts because you like this characters others don’t like because they were never really explore to have something to grab in to. You are asking people to see stuff that isn’t there. Potential it might be, but there is just that and if something isn’t explore then it wasn’t consider important to use so there is no point on saying this should matter more now.
__________________
Sansker is offline  
Old 2013-04-05, 23:54   Link #669
Demi.
Ass connoisseur
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Florida
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Name an anime that's come out in the last 10 years that's not mecha or big burly guys beating the tar out of each other a la Fist of the North Star or Berserk, that doesn't have a lot of moe characters.

In fact, moe creeps into Gundam. Go check out Gundam AGE and tell me that the kids there aren't Moe, even if they're male.
Psycho Pass, Soul Eater, Uchuu Kyoudai, Kaijoi, Akagi...

Honestly, if you wanted me to, I could pick over 100 anime out of what I've seen that do not have "a lot of moe characters"
__________________
Demi. is offline  
Old 2013-04-05, 23:59   Link #670
Nanya01
Left for TFF
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Frozen Hell of the North
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to Nanya01
A lot is subjective, I admit...

But you're telling me that Tsubaki and Black*Star aren't meant to be kind of cute?

But, anyway, Demi., even if you could name 100 anime that you've seen that don't have "a lot of moe characters" (and, BTW, Soul Eater is ten years old), the fact is, we get, what? over a dozen new anime each season, about a dozen OVAs, several new seasons and movies and a good majority of those anime have moe characters in them.

Edit: Sansker...

Quote:
So, why should I be happy or concern about “what could it be”? We get something else without those elements so the underplay elements aren’t important to me. And I don’t particularly like that you imply you have better imagination or more creative thoughts because you like this characters others don’t like because they were never really explore to have something to grab in to. You are asking people to see stuff that isn’t there.
I'm going to insult you now.

You aren't much of an anime, or any kind of fan, are you?

You have no imagination, you only see what's in the anime and ignore any sort of "All there in the manual" stuff that ALL anime goes through (Yes, Gurren Lagann, GaoGaiGar, Digimon, Code Geass, ETC ALL do that!) that anime fans find and go after to get information.

In YOUR opinion, those elements aren't important.

Well, GUESS WHAT?!

They kind of ARE important. In fact, those underplaying elements, of the "what could be" stuff that you don't think is important? Well, it is. It's why something that could be good or isn't too bad gets derided heavily by fans and critics over the years.
__________________

My fics Due to certain things, I am not here, find me over on TFF.
Nanya01 is offline  
Old 2013-04-06, 00:04   Link #671
Demi.
Ass connoisseur
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Florida
Age: 27
I'm pretty sure the anime is what matters here, not the manga. An anime can make a manga that isn't even moe, into something that is moe if they want to, so Soul Eater is more like four years old.

And yeah, more anime are moe shows than non-moe shows, yet Nanoha has always been a moe show, and that never stopped anyone here from watching it back then. Honestly, the series had more moe pandering than the movies ever had. The movies just have better animation which makes things look cuter overall.
__________________
Demi. is offline  
Old 2013-04-06, 00:07   Link #672
Nanya01
Left for TFF
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Frozen Hell of the North
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to Nanya01
One thing you forget Demi., is that Kaijo and I both were brought up watching 80s and 90s anime.

Moe wasn't too heavily invested in those anime, and yet they still remained popular for years after they were over.

And, yet, as we look at anime now-a-days...

We see moe in damn near everything.
__________________

My fics Due to certain things, I am not here, find me over on TFF.
Nanya01 is offline  
Old 2013-04-06, 00:07   Link #673
Sansker
Manus ad Ferrum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
Sansker...



I'm going to insult you now.

You aren't much of an anime, or any kind of fan, are you?

You have no imagination, you only see what's in the anime and ignore any sort of "All there in the manual" stuff that ALL anime goes through (Yes, Gurren Lagann, GaoGaiGar, Digimon, Code Geass, ETC ALL do that!) that anime fans find and go after to get information.

In YOUR opinion, those elements aren't important.

Well, GUESS WHAT?!

They kind of ARE important. In fact, those underplaying elements, of the "what could be" stuff that you don't think is important? Well, it is. It's why something that could be good or isn't too bad gets derided heavily by fans and critics over the years.
So, Nanya, you need to insult me to proof your point? Well I can see the reason behind it “This matters because I say so”. That I can’t argue with so let’s leave like that
__________________
Sansker is offline  
Old 2013-04-06, 00:08   Link #674
Justin_Brett
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Canada, Sault Ste. Marie
It was nice when that was the only pandering around.

Really hope the Sailor Moon reboot doesn't add anything like that, it didn't need it before.
Justin_Brett is offline  
Old 2013-04-06, 00:10   Link #675
Nanya01
Left for TFF
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Frozen Hell of the North
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to Nanya01
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
So, Nanya, you need to insult me to proof your point? Well I can see the reason behind it “This matters because I say so”. That I can’t argue with so let’s leave like that
And, again, you miss the point completely.
__________________

My fics Due to certain things, I am not here, find me over on TFF.
Nanya01 is offline  
Old 2013-04-06, 00:13   Link #676
Sansker
Manus ad Ferrum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 23
You insult me to proof your point Nanya, you are looking down on me for not sharing your point of view and when that is the case there is no room for a debate.
__________________
Sansker is offline  
Old 2013-04-06, 00:16   Link #677
Nanya01
Left for TFF
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Frozen Hell of the North
Age: 31
Send a message via AIM to Nanya01
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
You insult me to proof your point Nanya, you are looking down on me for not sharing your point of view and when that is the case there is no room for a debate.
I'm not looking down on you for not sharing my opinion.

I'm looking down on you for ignoring EVERYONE ELSE'S opinions.
__________________

My fics Due to certain things, I am not here, find me over on TFF.
Nanya01 is offline  
Old 2013-04-06, 00:19   Link #678
Sansker
Manus ad Ferrum
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Age: 23
Ok, this will get us out of the thread subject to I will end it here.

I do not ignore others opinion. I just don't see them as a reason to change my own. At leas so far I haven't fin any argument that can explain to me why Yuuno should be consider more because of his role. I don't think Arisa or Suzuka should come back to the series just because they were left without exploring and take away from the character we aready explore and still have their own potential. That isn't ignoring, that is just me expressing my own view. What will "not ignoring" other opinions be then?
__________________
Sansker is offline  
Old 2013-04-06, 00:21   Link #679
CrowKenobi
Moderator
*Moderator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: there... just there.
Can we please stay on topic and stop insulting one another? It's getting to the point where there's going to be infractions (NOT warnings) given and this thread getting locked for a time.
__________________



CrowKenobi is offline  
Old 2013-04-06, 02:30   Link #680
Hoki
Professor Lech
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Somewhere in Asia
Ah, long gone the days of anime being about big burly men beating the crap out of each other, or things like manly knights slaying giant dragons and toppling evil overlords.

Regrettable.

Since I really do not understand the economic aspects of anime franchises. I'll just post the things about the Lyrical Nanoha franchise I do understand; the characters.

I agree with what Kaijo said about characters getting shelved in favor of NanoFate really derailing the franchise, as it lessens the quality of the story by only focusing on a romantic subtext that we're not even sure will happen, just to please the fans. Again, Yuuno is the best example here. He could've been a good supporting character; the Shield to Nanoha's cannon, Fate's sword and arguably, Hayate's nukes. He could've also been a possible mentor figure to Caro and Teana, as his barriers are tough to break and he has a plethora of bind spells at his disposal, and being Nanoha's first magic trainer, would've provided Tea with bind spells, which would be very useful to the aspiring Enforcer. This would've helped Caro and Tea as support mage and forward leader respectively, and would've given Fate and Nanoha more character depth, as the forwards would want to know the history between them through the years. Hell, he could've teamed up with Shamal and Zafira to create the ultimate barrier spell during StrikerS, but sadly, all that's left for him now is being the guy in the Infinite Library.

And before anyone says that this is simply a "what could've been" moment again. I am making these points because there are a lot of possibilities for a character like Yuuno, which would've helped improve the story and the franchise, but regrettably, all of those possibilities were wasted in favor of pleasing the fans.

People complaining and hating other characters simply because they serve as a hindrance to NanoFate or that they're not given enough or too much screentime is also what bugs me. I mean, surely there must be a deeper reason to hate a character other than that? For example. I don't like Touma, not because he's the main character in Force, but because I find his character bland and unappealing.

Lastly is the issue of the "moe" phenomenon, which sadly has affected all kinds of anime recently. You have to admit, that as a franchise that found success in the magical girl genre, it would be inevitable that there will be moe elements here and there. But I believe there comes a time when the moe needs to step aside in favor of character development. Sadly, this has been ignored in order to continue milking NanoFate for all its worth. Like Kaijo, I think this has made Nanoha and Fate's characters stale, since fans expect them to be the cute couple they came to see, and we don't even know if it its canon or not.

To conclude, I think Tsuzuki could've handled some of the characters better, for the sake of improving the stories and the franchise, but sadly this is not currently the trend happening right now. I still not lost hope for the franchise, not like what happened to Naruto and Bleach, good franchises that lost all appeal to me when character development and story development went to all kinds of hell.

Last edited by Hoki; 2013-04-06 at 02:42.
Hoki is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.