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Old 2013-04-06, 04:01   Link #681
Lhklan
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Personally, I would prefer if we explored more of Earth. Might just be my "inner Earth fanboy" speaking, but hey.

For example, how would Vivio react to her mother's home planet? If Nanoha is on vacation, why didn't take the girl home and properly introduces her to her family? Talking over the phone can do so much, and personal interactions are much more interesting.

Then there's Suzuka's implied vampire lineage. Now I know it isn't evident - Sansker, ignore this since this is under element - but well, the fact that Suzuka reversed Fate's dodgeball without any injuries provoke a few questions, namely where did that strength come from? She's 9 at the time, remember?
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Old 2013-04-06, 04:09   Link #682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
*THAT* is the reason other characters eventually fade into the background in this series. And that, is the most damaging thing to the franchise, and to Nanoha and Fate themselves. They can't develop to anything else, because they are held back by a fanbase that wants the same thing over and over. As someone who honestly does like the characters, I'd rather see them cover knew ground and new relationships with other people. Tsuzuki has gone out of his way to create such an interesting, fascinating world... and to focus in on only two characters while shoving others into the background, denies the very nature of his creation. Yet he does it to cash in with the otaku. That is the sole reason other characters are pushed away, and why NanoFate is prominent.
Neither Force nor Vivid focuses on Nanoha and Fate though. Heck, even the games weren't, and SSX doesn't even have them. Even StrikerS, while still heavily featuring the pairing (to the detriment of their development) still focused a large amount of screentime and development on Teana and Subaru. Yes, the series focused heavily on Nanoha and Fate, but the franchise as a whole has moved away from that focus.

Also, there's Innocent in which none of the cast has tragic pasts too.
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Old 2013-04-06, 04:10   Link #683
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I'd say Tsuzukas strength would be surprising if anime didn't always have inhumanly strong characters for no apparent reason. I'm gonna have to assume that's the case here too since nothing was ever mentioned about it that I know of.


____________

And yeah, Kaijo's pro at making baseless assumptions and flaunting them around like factual evidence.
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Old 2013-04-06, 04:13   Link #684
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Everyone was majorly impressed by it, even the TSAB personnel, so there's that.
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Old 2013-04-06, 06:38   Link #685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
I've always had a pet theory that Takahashi intentionally dropped Dr. Tofu.
Dr. Tofu's role was tied into the female lead - Akane Tendo. Somewhat sad to say, I think he was created primarily to give balance to Akane. Without Dr. Tofu, it would be tempting (if not easy) to conclude that Akane just has zero interest in romance in general (rather than having issues with Ranma in particular). But Akane clearly had a crush on Dr. Tofu.

So Dr. Tofu helps round off Akane's character a bit, and makes it clear that Akane is not necessarily adverse to romance itself. Which, of course, makes things more interesting. But once Dr. Tofu makes that clear, his role beyond that is problematic.

Like Kaijo wrote, Tofu's a smooth, caring, emotionally mature man. In a chaotic slapstick-comedy world like Ranma's, where you have to drag romantic conflict out as much as possible, he could actually counteract the mood of the property.


With all of this in mind, do you know what I think is the main reason Yuuno is all but gone?

Because the series shifted heavily from magical girl to mecha. And Yuuno is much more "magical girl" in his character design and role than he is "mecha".

Yuuno starts out as the classic magical girl familiar (hence his ferret form). Such a character type almost needs a Sakura Kinimoto to work with. Unfortunately for him, his "Sakura Kinimoto" (i.e. Nanoha) was rather mature, only needed MGF help/instruction for a short time, and soon outgrew any practical need for Yuuno's help (this was especially true after the mecha shift that began with cartridges in A's).

Arf is similar. She's literally a magical girl familiar (i.e. she's Fate's familiar).


Magical girl familiars typically have two purposes:

1. Introduce the main mission of the narrative to the magical girl(s), and support her (or them) in it up until that mission is completed. This could be collecting Clow Cards, collecting Jewel Seeds, or simply raising awareness to the existence of powerful antagonists that need to be defeated.

2. Be teachers and training wheels for magical girls.


For Yuuno and Arf, No. 1 was accomplished (or kinda failed, in Arf's case) at the end of the original anime.

And for No. 2, Nanoha and Fate soon outgrew the need for teachers and training wheels. Again, the introduction of cartridges in A's spelled Yuuno and Arf's fate as much as anything did.

For Yuuno and Arf to maintain significant screen-presence and roles going forward, you need to either create new roles for them out of whole-cloth (the librarian role means that Yuuno doesn't totally disappear, but in a property this action-oriented it does greatly minimize his presence) or find a new Sakura Kinimoto for them. Here is where Vivio could have saved Yuuno and/or Arf from obscurity. However, Vivid didn't go in that direction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold View Post
Adding +3 to 0 leads to a measly total of 3.

Adding +3 to 9 leads to a larger total of 10.

Basically, Yuuno was an established character, and adding Verossa's scenes to his screentime would have mattered more. People already knew Yuuno, and so cared about him (one way or the other; hate is a sort of caring). People already remembered Yuuno, and this would give them more to remember.

People would have remembered Verossa, too, if the series had bothered to develop him more. He shows up only twice before the finale, right? And basically does nothing in those short appearances. He has no impact on the cast or the plot at all; not to the extent that Yuuno did in both of the previous seasons.
Those are good points. And it's why I dislike the cast enlargement that the Nanoha series has embraced.

Too much cast enlargement creates redundancy, which is deadly to supporting cast characters. Characters must serve specific narrative roles, or their relevancy quickly dwindles.

Before creating a new character to serve a specific role, a writer should ask himself/herself "Is there a existing character that could fulfill this role and benefit from having that role given to him/her?"

You're right, giving Verossa's role to Yuuno would be better than having people going "Who the hell is this green-haired guy?" (which honestly is how I recall reacting to Verossa's action scenes in StrikerS ).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post

And now, if you'll pardon me, I'm about to rant. Horribly. Avert your eyes if ye be faint of heart.

I am going to challenge this notion that people somehow stop caring about a character that doesn't show up. That's bullcrap, plain and simple.
This doesn't cause everybody to stop caring about those characters, and I don't think anybody said that it did. Like I said, some resent dwindling character focus for a character that once enjoyed significant character focus. But for less hardcore audiences, yeah, dwindling character presence means that portion of the audience starts to care less about the character.


Quote:
I know lots of people, a great deal right here, who care about the entire cast of Nanoha. Spend some time in the fanfiction thread, and you will find fics bringing back every single character for various moments of development and awesomeness.
People who write and/or read fanfics are the hardcore of the hardcore when it comes to an anime's fandom. They tend to care about the most minor character and the tiniest point of franchise trivia. They're your Trekkies, basically.

But Star Trek has fans beyond the Trekkies. And similarly, Nanoha has fans beyond the hardcore of the hardcore.

For some anime fans, Nanoha is their favorite anime show of all-time. So they care about every last nook and cranny of the Nanoha franchise.

But for numerous other anime fans, Nanoha is simply one of many anime shows they liked. For these less hardcore fans, dwindling character presence naturally means they care less about those characters. In some cases, they may literally forget about certain characters.




Quote:
The whole "people don't care because they don't show up" reeks of some sense of self-justification for why they aren't around. "It's okay to not like them, because they don't show up, and no one else likes them since they don't show up, so I am okay in not liking them."
My point is that it's unrealistic to expect less hardcore Nanoha fans to care about Nanoha characters that hardly ever show up. Movies are definitely for general audiences. This is something comic book fans repeatedly have to deal with when their favorite properties go to the big screen.


Anyway, Keroko already addressed the logical issues with your anti-NanoFate argument, so I'll skip that.
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Old 2013-04-06, 07:53   Link #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Neither Force nor Vivid focuses on Nanoha and Fate though.
Vivid features Nanoha and Fate's adopted daughter, and Nanoha and Fate show up often enough in cute homey scenes or in large practice battles or in the stands, cheering. In a big way, Vivid is "proof" of NanoFate, especially since Yuuno doesn't get one appearance or mention.

Force would have been an awesome story if Nanoha and Fate had never shown their faces and taken over the show. Force didn't need anything but Touma, the other new characters, and maybe just Subaru, Teana and the other reformed Numbers.


Quote:
Also, there's Innocent in which none of the cast has tragic pasts too.
No, instead they're all super-adorable happy. Cheek-pinchingly cute.

I don't mind that, really. But it's still about the moe.
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Old 2013-04-06, 08:55   Link #687
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Some people on this thread have really tipped their hat to their passionate anti-NanoFate bias (and even to a possible anti-Nanoha and/or anti-Fate bias in some cases).

You're not fooling anybody any more, guys.

It's time to drop the pretense of objectivity, and admit that you just don't like the pairing. That's fine. We all have anime pairings we don't like.
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Old 2013-04-06, 09:01   Link #688
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I never once stated that I was a NanoFate fan.

I was at one point, however.

But then I *DARED* to write a Non-NanoFate fic and what I got from the fanbase has forever put me off on pure NanoFate.

I'm a Nanoha fan, plain and simple. I'm not a Fate fan, I LIKE her, but I'm not a fan of hers.

Remember, Fan is short for Fanatic.

So, yes, I'm a fan of Nanoha, it took me awhile, but I eventually became a fan of Hayate and Yuuno both.

Interestingly enough, it was Subaru, Nove, Wendi and Teana from StrikerS that I ended up liking the most.

That being said, Sette is still one of my favorite characters in the franchise.

In fact, it's easier to give a list of character that I do NOT like instead of a list I do like.

Precia
Quattro
Graham
Regius
and even Rio.

Yes, I don't really like Rio much at all, is she unlikable, no, I just don't like her.

I don't have much to say about most of the new characters in ViVid or Force (Einhart, Isis, Touma, Arnage, Lolo! <3) due to the fact that I fell behind and I still haven't caught up yet.
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Old 2013-04-06, 09:11   Link #689
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Sometimes I wonder if every active member left on this board has been wronged by a NanoFate fan at one point and lead them to hold some undying grudge against the pairing...Because I hear this sob story brought up often.
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Old 2013-04-06, 09:13   Link #690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Neither Force nor Vivid focuses on Nanoha and Fate though. Heck, even the games weren't, and SSX doesn't even have them. Even StrikerS, while still heavily featuring the pairing (to the detriment of their development) still focused a large amount of screentime and development on Teana and Subaru. Yes, the series focused heavily on Nanoha and Fate, but the franchise as a whole has moved away from that focus.

Also, there's Innocent in which none of the cast has tragic pasts too.
We're dealing with an already established cast with Innocent, so there is no need to do yet another tragic past. Fate fans were drawn to it because they already liked Fate. Innocent is also, as Sunder said, harkens back to the moe, just like Sunder pointed out.

And Force and Vivid prove another point I made before, about how you don't need NanoFate focus to make this series successful. Hence, you can drop the NanoFate scenes and the dream eater sequence, and the A's movie would still have been successful. Otaku will still buy everything regardless.

Not every show has moe, but it has crept more and more into many anime shows. For those of us who grew up on 80's and 90's anime, moe was practically nowhere to be found, so we notice it more than the young who came in much later. In early anime, the female type most desired was the Yamato Nadeshiko type that anime fans would go for.

Take K-On for example, a show about nothing. Oh, it's something about girls making a band, but they hardly play their instruments, and spend their time doing cute things... and it's hugely popular with otaku. Madoka gets its major lift from moe. If, Demi, you need proof, then I suggest you check out anime like Macademi WAsshoi! The moe/otaku phenomenon is pointed out and/or lampshaded. Also see: anime like Midori Days and Genshiken.

What sells, what appeals to the otaku, is very well-known.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Some people on this thread have really tipped their hat to their passionate anti-NanoFate bias (and even to a possible anti-Nanoha and/or anti-Fate bias in some cases).

You're not fooling anybody any more, guys.

It's time to drop the pretense of objectivity, and admit that you just don't like the pairing. That's fine. We all have anime pairings we don't like.
Then you aren't really reading anyone's posts, when they've tried to explain their nuanced viewpoint. You see things only as a binary like/dislike, so to you, anything that isn't a like, is automatically a dislike. The viewpoints expressed herein, are a bit more complex than that.

If you truly think I hate NanoFate, then you haven't read chapter 21 of Future Tense. You haven't read any of my fics, like Pleasant Dinner Conversation or Whipped. And you haven't read the fanfiction of people have written here. If you had, you'd know damn well that they do like Fate and NanoFate, but it is a tempered, more nuanced position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Sometimes I wonder if every active member left on this board has been wronged by a NanoFate fan at one point and lead them to hold some undying grudge against the pairing...Because I hear this sob story brought up often.
Oh, it's not just that, although there has been plenty of it. I doubt you'd find someone here who hasn't spent time on another forum where the NanoFate bias destroyed any semblence of honest conversation. Me? I don't care too much what happens to me. But I've had people try to post my fics like Future Tense to a NanoFate board, only to have it deleted and the person banned. And that fic had one of the best NanoFate chapters people feel I have ever written!
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Old 2013-04-06, 09:16   Link #691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
I never once stated that I was a NanoFate fan.
You're not one of the people I'm talking about. You've been admirably up-front and honest about your likes, dislikes, and biases.


Quote:

I was at one point, however.

But then I *DARED* to write a Non-NanoFate fic and what I got from the fanbase has forever put me off on pure NanoFate.

I'm a Nanoha fan, plain and simple. I'm not a Fate fan, I LIKE her, but I'm not a fan of hers.

Remember, Fan is short for Fanatic.

So, yes, I'm a fan of Nanoha, it took me awhile, but I eventually became a fan of Hayate and Yuuno both.

Interestingly enough, it was Subaru, Nove, Wendi and Teana from StrikerS that I ended up liking the most.

That being said, Sette is still one of my favorite characters in the franchise.

In fact, it's easier to give a list of character that I do NOT like instead of a list I do like.

Precia
Quattro
Graham
Regius
and even Rio.

Yes, I don't really like Rio much at all, is she unlikable, no, I just don't like her.
Given that at least two of these are major antagonists, I have to ask - Do you mean that you don't like their personalities, or do you mean you don't like them as characters?

Because I don't think we're supposed to like the personality of Precia or Quattro. But they are supposed to be compelling/entertaining antagonists, and they were for me at least. Still, I wouldn't particularly want to be there friends, lol.
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Old 2013-04-06, 09:22   Link #692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post


Oh, it's not just that, although there has been plenty of it. I doubt you'd find someone here who hasn't spent time on another forum where the NanoFate bias destroyed any semblence of honest conversation. Me? I don't care too much what happens to me. But I've had people try to post my fics like Future Tense to a NanoFate board, only to have it deleted and the person banned. And that fic had one of the best NanoFate chapters people feel I have ever written!
Well, you're posting a fic on a strictly NanoFate board, something tells me there was something in it you failed to mention.

Though I really would like to know where you guys meet these people, I frequent NanoFate.us all the time and they are nothing like that.
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Old 2013-04-06, 09:34   Link #693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Given that at least two of these are major antagonists, I have to ask - Do you mean that you don't like their personalities, or do you mean you don't like them as characters?

Because I don't think we're supposed to like the personality of Precia or Quattro. But they are supposed to be compelling/entertaining antagonists, and they were for me at least. Still, I wouldn't particularly want to be there friends, lol.
A bit of both, actually.

Part of it is personality, but while I sympathize with Precia, I doubt I'll ever truly like her (even if Innocent has her likeable and I did make her somewhat more likeable in my fic). Same with Graham, I sympathize with him, but he needed more comeuppance, or at least he should have had to face Hayate (we KNOW she'd forgive him, but he should have had to face her). Regius, again, you can sympathize with his situation, but he went about it the wrong way.

Quattro, my favorite moment of her will always be...

"She's going to blast through here? Oh dear mother of god!"
"Blaster THREE! DIVINE!" *Clack, clack, clack, drop clip, reload* "BUSTER!"
"NYAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!"
*BOOOM!*

As for Rio, just something about her that I don't like, that's all. (Just a bunch of little things that add up together that bugs me about her)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Well, you're posting a fic on a strictly NanoFate board, something tells me there was something in it you failed to mention.

Though I really would like to know where you guys meet these people, I frequent NanoFate.us all the time and they are nothing like that.
You missed the part where Kaijo mentioned someone ELSE posted his fic on NanoFate.us and got banned for it.

As for who... Try Haru. He STILL gets Super defensive about NanoFate EVERYWHERE! Hell, even HINT that Fate could be shipped with someone else (like Erio for example) and he'll show up and start slamming the idea and how only Nanoha is the only person for Fate and no one else is.

Trust me, he goes around DA doing that.
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Old 2013-04-06, 09:45   Link #694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demi. View Post
Well, you're posting a fic on a strictly NanoFate board, something tells me there was something in it you failed to mention.

Though I really would like to know where you guys meet these people, I frequent NanoFate.us all the time and they are nothing like that.
It wasn't me that posted it (and it was posted to nanofate.us). Someone who reads my fics told me about it awhile back. Future Tense is a more complicated fic, relationship-wise. Nanoha and Fate weren't romantically involved, but I did focus heavily on their friendship and complicated feelings. As I said, chapter 21 was highly praised by many people, including some NanoFate fans, as a great emotional chapter between the two.

But as I said, it is a complicated fic, with complicated releationships, and a bit long. So I don't expect too many people to get into it.
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Old 2013-04-06, 09:52   Link #695
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Well Haru must turn into a completely different fellow when NanoFate is threatened, because he seems like a very helpful/friendly guy to me.

Though not romantically involved? Were they romantically involved with some one else?
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Old 2013-04-06, 09:54   Link #696
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If you call people joking about Erio and Fate having a relationship "threatened", or a fic that was originally done as a crack ship fic as a joke and he goes off the rails...

Then yes, he obviously turns into a different person.
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Old 2013-04-06, 09:56   Link #697
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So can one be a Nanoha and Fate fan without being a NanoFate fan?

Because I am a Nanoha and Fate fan. However, I don't really believe that Nanoha likes Fate or vice versa in that way. In my eyes, they're more like really best friends, or I think the term is platonic life partners.

And arguing with rabid fans of a certain pairing, while fun to do, gets old after a while.
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Old 2013-04-06, 09:56   Link #698
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Another intriguing discussion. You have given me many hours of enjoyment these past moons, Nanoha subforum posters.
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Old 2013-04-06, 09:58   Link #699
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Another intriguing discussion. You have given me many hours of enjoyment these past moons, Nanoha subforum posters.
You don't know the half of it- It's like I had never left this place all those years ago
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Old 2013-04-06, 09:58   Link #700
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So can one be a Nanoha and Fate fan without being a NanoFate fan?
I would like to think so.

Sure, it's fun to ship two characters you're a fan of together, but you don't have to be a fan of the ship to be fans of the characters.

Case in point, I'm a fan of Yuuno and Hayate, but I don't ship them together (unless I feel like exploring what that relationship could be like).
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