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Old 2004-01-28, 04:26   Link #41
exedore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fntc
Also any hope of using DVD sources? The remastered video on the DVD box is great. ^_^
I hope not, the reanimated sequences stick out like a sore thumb. I watched a couple episodes of it and just sat there going "crappy cg pan, crappy cg pan, they changed that, what the hell happened to his character design, crappy cg pan..." etc. The whole reanimation thing is almost enough to make me not want to buy an R1 and just keep my LDs.
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Old 2004-01-28, 05:24   Link #42
Fntc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exedore
I hope not, the reanimated sequences stick out like a sore thumb. I watched a couple episodes of it and just sat there going "crappy cg pan, crappy cg pan, they changed that, what the hell happened to his character design, crappy cg pan..." etc. The whole reanimation thing is almost enough to make me not want to buy an R1 and just keep my LDs.
The problem with CG pans is that they move WAY smoother than the rest of the action... Coming from film the 24 fps framerate makes it not as jarring. I wish they'd stop doing 60-field-per-second (or even 30 fps) animation and stick with the 24fps paradigm, even if the pictures never touch actual film.

Unfortunately capturing stuff made for 30fps at 24fps doesn't work real well and makes the pans a bit uneven. =( You just can't win.
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Old 2004-01-28, 18:56   Link #43
satsuke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fntc
I hope you're setting it to maximum quality encoding. Realtime MPEG-2 encoders can be pretty poor in the limited bandwidth that DVD allows (just under a measly 10Mbps max). The tiny artifacts that you get from this form generational artifacts when you go to the MPEG-4 encode. You're always going to lose something from the intermediate MPEG-2 step, but if you set it to the maximum possible quality you can mimize it pretty well.



LDs do indeed yield about 400 lines of square horizontal resolution without any filters, which works out to about 532 horizontal pixels on a 4:3 display... but these are not actually PIXELS. It's actually a gradual falloff. Good LD players have a high-frequency-gain circuit that boosts the falloff curve into more of a sudden cliff, and then applies noise reduction to compensate for the poorer SNR of those frequencies. It's basically the same thing as the "sharpness" control on your TV but it's tuned to only boost frequencies where there is actual information salvageable. (With the advent of pixel-based systems like DVD, high frequency gain has been much maligned since it just worsens image quality on DVDs... ...but the technique is there for a REASON because analog formats dynamic range falls off at high frequencies).

In short you can actually get something closer to 570 horizontal pixels of meaningful data. Most LD players with digital framebuffers output at the same resolution as DVD just to be on the safe side.

What's really killing the image quality though is the vertical scaling. It's REALLY messing up your chroma resolution hardcore. This is because you're doing TWO scalings of your chroma res. LDs do perfect vertical luma and chroma res at 525 scanlines (480 to 481 usable). By capturing to your DVD recorder, MPEG-2 is scaling your vertical chroma image to only 240 lines (MPEG-4 does this too!), and when you scale it in MPEG-4 to 384 you're actually only getting 192 vertical chroma pixels. What is also happening here is you are getting scaling artifacts from performing two scale operations on the chroma instead of one.

Coupled with the interlace artifacting (which is still happening, although it's heavily minimized due to what appears to be an EXCELLENT deinterlacer on your DVD recorder) and the lost vertical luma resolution, it's really hurting your image quality. ^^;



Well, I'm not seeing artifacts worse than really anything else in MPEG-4 at that resolution/bitrate. So it's not a problem. Really you should go to at least 640x480 though and jack up your bitrate to compensate though. The video is always going to suck somewhat since it has to be limited to the relatively-crummy bitrates that are transportable over the 'net (if I had my way everything would be lossless ) but you could be making it look a lot better.

Also any hope of using DVD sources? The remastered video on the DVD box is great. ^_^

While I have seen a DVD rip of the new R2 DVD, it also happens to have the new retouched animation that has caused a little controversy <We've played the game of "improved video" .. TokyoPop used <and credited> our subtitles on the commercial release of Initial D, but proceeded to mangle and mutilate the video with the "tricked out" version>.

As it is we have an entirely analog based capture mechanism and for this series, which for us is largely in the can <we have finished versions up through the 60s and scripts up into the 90s> .. don't see changing the source anytime soon.

There is also the issue of taking DVD rip / compressed once sources and recompressing them again .. which would be a minimum of 3 full recompressions and 1 RGB to YUV conversions. I am looking into using the Matroska container format, but at this point I don't see the granularity of control over font and placement available in MKV as we do using our current systems.

As far as the cumulative effect of filters and resolution, you are correct, DVD recorders / DVD in general only use 1/2 of the horizontal chroma information. At this point the end result of DVDr to AVI is an acceptable trade off, the reasons for scaling to 512/384 have been talked about elsewhere ,. for my intermediate runs for the next 4 episodes I've been scaling to 640 / 480 from 704/480, but still haven't decided on how to proceed.

The actual number of horizontal lines of chroma encoded is somewhere above 192 .. given that the decompression filter from DVD to AVI is going through the corresponding approximation of the dropped chroma phase.

As far as deinterlace filters, the DVD <i've learned> is encoding interlaced, it's the deinterlace filter built into a specific version of HuffYUV that we've been using .. if you care .. we've had a good deal of luck with huffy as a intermediate step up until recently .. a newer version was installed and hence generates a jumping effect seen in unreleased encoding runs internally>.

The eventualy point we want to get to is capturing directly to HuffyUV rather than DVDr .. but at present we are still identifying capture boards that are up to the task while maintaining color fidelity.

As far as artifacts with the scaling process .. I personally see more compression artifacts in space scenes and the like when using the larger sizes and thus the smaller resolution is better for this purpose.

The observation that bitrates are a bit low is correct .. the newer xvid builds I have used have a small applet that shows the bandwidth XVID wants to use .. for most video tasks it wants to use 3000+ kb/s for even simple sequences.
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Old 2004-01-29, 00:25   Link #44
Fntc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satsuke
There is also the issue of taking DVD rip / compressed once sources and recompressing them again .. which would be a minimum of 3 full recompressions and 1 RGB to YUV conversions. I am looking into using the Matroska container format, but at this point I don't see the granularity of control over font and placement available in MKV as we do using our current systems.
True, that. I credit you for taking the time to look at Matroksa though. It is a very nice container. It obviously doesn't work as well as a pre-encoded overlay that you tune ahead of time, but it's a potential solution. Thanks for checking it out though, even though it didn't work out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by satsuke
As far as the cumulative effect of filters and resolution, you are correct, DVD recorders / DVD in general only use 1/2 of the horizontal chroma information. At this point the end result of DVDr to AVI is an acceptable trade off, the reasons for scaling to 512/384 have been talked about elsewhere ,. for my intermediate runs for the next 4 episodes I've been scaling to 640 / 480 from 704/480, but still haven't decided on how to proceed.
The horizontal chroma scaling isn't a problem! Any relatively recent LD was mastered from D2. It's initially sampled at 4:2:2 so the horizontal chroma is halved right off the bat just like DVD, and the quadrature modulated chroma signal in it actually cuts horizontal chroma resolution down below even half the luma, so going to DVD and even to 512x384 you're actually not losing any horizontal chroma!

The problem is VERTICAL chroma resolution. LDs, DVDs, etc, are discrete scanlines and so have perfect vertical chroma res. DVDs are 4:0:0 sampled which means they halve the vertical chroma as well as the horizontal. This is where you are getting serious loss of data! Obviously it will be halved no matter what going to MPEG-4, but at least at 640x480 you'd be cutting your vertical chroma loss to DVD levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by satsuke
As far as deinterlace filters, the DVD <i've learned> is encoding interlaced, it's the deinterlace filter built into a specific version of HuffYUV that we've been using .. if you care .. we've had a good deal of luck with huffy as a intermediate step up until recently .. a newer version was installed and hence generates a jumping effect seen in unreleased encoding runs internally>.
Yah huffyuv is the best for editing. It's fast and lossless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by satsuke
The eventualy point we want to get to is capturing directly to HuffyUV rather than DVDr .. but at present we are still identifying capture boards that are up to the task while maintaining color fidelity.
Well, to do a really good job, you need a pro card, and that's expensive. There's simply nothing to be done about it. If you're looking for something on the consumer end of things then one of the Matrox cards would do you the best, followed by the ATI All in Wonders... keep in mind that the consumer-grade cards will drop frames from time to time if you don't feed them with tons of RAM and such, and there's not a lot to do about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by satsuke
As far as artifacts with the scaling process .. I personally see more compression artifacts in space scenes and the like when using the larger sizes and thus the smaller resolution is better for this purpose.
Well, finer detail means the need for more bitrate. Jack up the rate and you'll get the better resolution.That's all there is to it.

Have you considered using a non-square pixel aspect? Like 512x480? That way you'd be using the extra resolution on where the most extra data was.
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Old 2004-04-25, 02:29   Link #45
kazuo
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Wait for Central to do it.

Most of you are probably too new to remember Central (and even then, most of you prolly never saw their tapes as they didn't really have a distribution model outside of their club/friends)

Good shit guys, I am glad to see you in the world of Digisubbing. You will single-handedly create a new standard.

And JACOsub is the shit!!! Old School
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Old 2004-04-26, 22:12   Link #46
EvilTesdall
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Legends of the Galtic heros

I have recently found this anime around and got something up into the 47 range. and found the trail ends there, i will be more than happy to trade, or ermm..just leech the other episodes. i don't care how they are done as long as they have english subtitles (and are done corectly) and not...awww man i smoked to much weed.. however that was a funny episode of naruto ^_^. Its an awesome show and i saw that they have the DVD's out and im only in season like i think it was 2 or 3 ... out of something 8 ??? don't recall. Well someone please respond to this...and give me my crack...i mean fix ^_^....same thing i suppose.
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Old 2004-04-27, 00:23   Link #47
Fronzel
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You should sign the pledge to buy the hopefully extant R1 release here. Everyone should!
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Old 2004-04-27, 00:39   Link #48
Rheinhard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fronzel
You should sign the pledge to buy the hopefully extant R1 release here. Everyone should!
Right you are Fronzel!

And EvilTesdall, you don't know how lucky you are, having just recently found the show and getting as far as you have. Some of us who have followed this show since the beginning have been waiting for fansubs to get past that point for, oh, about a decade now...

If you need more background details on the show, be sure to check out the LoGH Info Center, the most complete LoGH English language reference around!
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Old 2004-04-27, 16:06   Link #49
omit
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logh

Logh is a masterpiece and I have the whole series(1-110ep) except the movies and the gaiden ova's on dvd. I dont really have any experience of dvd ripping or how to seed torrents but if its relatively easy(and costs nothin) and some of you help me out then I would like to put them up for download.
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Old 2004-07-04, 12:40   Link #50
Rarity
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The new Aoi-anime episode 1 of the DVD version is excellent. If you don't mind the DVD retouches, then you're in for a treat. Color, detail, and pans are all excellent. The translation has been added to in some select spots.

The series is certainly getting crowded. Have any groups dropped out?
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Old 2004-07-05, 17:55   Link #51
Trickle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omit
Logh is a masterpiece and I have the whole series(1-110ep) except the movies and the gaiden ova's on dvd. I dont really have any experience of dvd ripping or how to seed torrents but if its relatively easy(and costs nothin) and some of you help me out then I would like to put them up for download.
Someone grab him and chain him to the desk before he leaves!

Seriously, if I were you I'd head into the forums of particular fansub groups and see if any of them are interested in this non licenced clasic that no one has done DVD rips of before. Its a big series and old, so you may still find not all will bite straight away, plus some may need to finish off an existing project first.

You will find that if you get a fansub group interested, they will probably give you suggestions on how they would like the raws to be gotten and give suggestions and tips on their prefered software.

You wont need to worry about so much about uploading/hosting the file when ripped, but they may want you to learn mirc file transfering on their chat channel for files of those sorts of sizes?

I would consider making a post in the fansubs forum section as it gets some trafic from random groups members (if you dont fancy searching and trawling around for specific groups websites/mirc channels yourself - and not all have websites), where as this post may not get viewed by potentially interested parties.
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Old 2004-07-06, 01:54   Link #52
Longinus
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Ooh, this is one of my favorite SF anime series also.

Too bad I can't seem to find all the episodes here in canada... I have the movies and the side storie, I don't have the complete TV series though, which now I'm trying to get off BT.

As for the praise people are giving this series, I absolutely agree this is the best ever. The scale of the battles, the ideals of the common soldiers and the intricacies of politics is very nicely woven into this masterpieve of a space opera.

I've even done a rough Brunhilde model in 3D a few years back(well it wasn't exactly "done"), it was intended to be included in a mod of the space sim Starshatter, though unfortunately my HD crashed and I lost the model and these pics are what's left of it.
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Old 2004-07-06, 03:23   Link #53
Trickle
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Your gundam model is quite impressive!
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Old 2004-08-10, 21:05   Link #54
glyph
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Anyone knows anything about the Spiral Labyrinth OVAs? Are they prequels to the original series or what?
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Old 2004-08-10, 21:21   Link #55
exedore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glyph
Anyone knows anything about the Spiral Labyrinth OVAs? Are they prequels to the original series or what?
1)All of LoGH is OVA.
2)The last two boxsets (the white one and the purple one) are prequel OVAs. These include the "Spiral Labrynth" and "Valley of White Silver" stories, as well as others. The second Gaiden (side story/prequel) set also was the first time they used digital for LoGH. And boy does it look craptacular...
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Old 2004-08-13, 13:44   Link #56
Heibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exedore
1)All of LoGH is OVA.
2)The last two boxsets (the white one and the purple one) are prequel OVAs. These include the "Spiral Labrynth" and "Valley of White Silver" stories, as well as others. The second Gaiden (side story/prequel) set also was the first time they used digital for LoGH. And boy does it look craptacular...
We have all the scripts for the Gaidens as well as the 110 eps of LOGH. As soon as I escape the sandpit we'll start finishing this up. I'm currently having the first 54 eps translations rechecked. The earlier ones will start coming fast and furious and natrually slow down as they catch up to what isn't done. Look for the flood to start next month.

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Old 2004-08-26, 20:30   Link #57
Hisoka Hajime
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Legend of the Galactic Heroes episode 94

Can someone please give me a summary as to what happends in this episode? I saw the first 10 or so minutes till my disk will no longer play and goes back to the menu. I also tried on many other dvd players, but it seems like the rest of the ep just isn't on the disk to begin with. Thanks a lot!
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Old 2004-08-26, 21:24   Link #58
exedore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hisoka Hajime
Can someone please give me a summary as to what happends in this episode? I saw the first 10 or so minutes till my disk will no longer play and goes back to the menu. I also tried on many other dvd players, but it seems like the rest of the ep just isn't on the disk to begin with. Thanks a lot!
http://www.logh.net has short summaries for each episode as well as a message board which may be more appropriate for major spoiler discussion.
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Old 2004-09-10, 03:11   Link #59
kazuo
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Hey CA guys,

I am down to help you guys in any way I can. Seeding, translation checking, timing, you name it... I want this series to come out in its entirety and I truly appreciate your guys' releasing this.

Is Todd still around? Just curious... ;0 (old school.. I still have one of your fansub tapes laying around, the Street Fighter II movie... I show it to all my friends as an example of what happened to anime when brought over before it got big in the states)

The tape is real old, I'm considering transferring it to DVD just so it never wears out.
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Old 2004-09-10, 17:32   Link #60
Heibi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kazuo
Hey CA guys,

I am down to help you guys in any way I can. Seeding, translation checking, timing, you name it... I want this series to come out in its entirety and I truly appreciate your guys' releasing this.

Is Todd still around? Just curious... ;0 (old school.. I still have one of your fansub tapes laying around, the Street Fighter II movie... I show it to all my friends as an example of what happened to anime when brought over before it got big in the states)

The tape is real old, I'm considering transferring it to DVD just so it never wears out.
I'm still here. And pretty soon, LOGH will be flowing at a steady pace. We're trying something new with the subtitles that we hope will make everyone happy. So will the Touch fans. Now, if Satsuke would upload #8....

Anyone in our area can always stop by and see how we do things. We have Saturday meetings. Contact me privately if interested. Meetings are free as always.

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