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Old 2012-06-10, 21:54   Link #1241
kuroishinigami
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
So why not just make a new anime project if that is the sentiment (It's not mine)? Why called it a Eureka 7 sequel if it doesn't REALLY feel like one in a tangible manner?
Because the world setting still has some connection with the original E7(scub coral and Eureka herself), although where they plan to bring the connection to is still anyone guess. It's like saying turn A gundam, V gundam, ad ZZ gundam don't deserve to be put in gundam UC timeline because Amuro, bright and the original Gundam cast don't appear, when the director himself(tomino) already said they are.
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Old 2012-06-10, 22:07   Link #1242
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
So why not just make a new anime project if that is the sentiment (It's not mine)? Why called it a Eureka 7 sequel if it doesn't REALLY feel like one in a tangible manner?
Well it's obvious that this sequel is Bones cashing in on probably their most popular franchise. There's no denying that. It's true that the E7 story was complete and there was no need to revisit it.

But with that said, as long as the sequel doesn't mess with the story of the first series whilst telling a new story in its place, I'm all for it. Sequels that tend to expand on previous stories don't really work for me. One reason Gundam fails so much is that it's just the same story over and over again. Natsume's sequels are good, but after the third season, it started to get really old because I felt like his story was completed with that third season. In my opinion, this series does everything a sequel should do. Tell a new story that doesn't mess with the original one, whilst keeping in spirit with the first series. And really, it doesn't have to keep in spirit with the first series that much. As much as I rag on the original E7 series, I do agree with the viewpoint that if you can't feel it in the sequel, then what's the point? But as I have said many times (including in my own blog), while it's different from the first series, it isn't THAT different.

For a more literal example, Fate/Zero is completely different from Fate/Stay Night (and no, the fact that it's a prequel instead of a sequel doesn't excuse it from being the same as this anime is to E7), but it doesn't mess with the original series in any way. And that series wasn't even written by the creators. It's from Gen Urobuchi. Okay, Fate/Stay Night has the advantage of being a bad series while E7 wasn't, but that doesn't make much difference to me. For an actual sequel, there's Aquarion Evol. I never saw the original series, but from what I've heard, it was bad, so staying too close to the spirit of the original would have been stupid. The sequel is one of my favorite series of the year and I'm pretty sure that it's goofier than the first series as well. Okay, it's been getting some flak recently, but I still think it's great.
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Old 2012-06-10, 22:11   Link #1243
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
So why not just make a new anime project if that is the sentiment (It's not mine)? Why called it a Eureka 7 sequel if it doesn't REALLY feel like one in a tangible manner?
Because the story is obviously tied in to the E7 mythology? And because there are a great many fans who think AO feels very much like a logical E7 successor?

As has been pointed out, what of the many other franchises which have sequels that have no characters in common at all, yet still share a name? We have a show here that's already featured one E7 character (three if you count Nirvash and type theEND) and may feature many more, as it's barely one/third complete.

The unrealistic expectations of a direct, linear sequel came from fans, not BONES.
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Old 2012-06-10, 23:12   Link #1244
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I guess despite hints and such, if they decide not to make it too directly linked with the first series, I would be ok with it simply because the previous one was in fact good enough.
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Old 2012-06-11, 03:15   Link #1245
Daniel Lind
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AO feels very much like a logical E7 successor
With Eureka and Renton breaking up for years because :PLOT:.
What a successor indeed. That's already betrayal in my book - perhaps not to the logic, but to the idea.

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That argument would hold more water with me if I actually cared about Naru. Unfortunately, I don't.
And also, I've seen people complain that the old E7 characters aren't in this show and what happened to Renton, and whatnot. I also don't care.
Well good for you, but can't you see how people do feel confused about these two things? That SOME people coming into a continuation expect it not to be a completely new show? That SOME people that actually cared about what Eureka Seven was about expect the main hero and heroine to be in a less irrelevant relationship? Again it comes to the fact that AO might not be a poor show on its own, but it's definitely not a good sequel.
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Old 2012-06-11, 03:57   Link #1246
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We are being MADE to think that they've broken up.

For all we know, Renton may have been in trouble and Eureka gambled to try and bring the boy's father home, but failed.
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Old 2012-06-11, 04:05   Link #1247
kuroishinigami
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Originally Posted by Daniel Lind View Post
With Eureka and Renton breaking up for years because :PLOT:.
What a successor indeed. That's already betrayal in my book - perhaps not to the logic, but to the idea.
I don't understand this point in your argument. Pardon me if I'm wrong, but it seems as if you think Ao is betraying the original series because Eureka and Renton get separated. It's as if you rebuke a sequel because the the original series end in a happy note, but the sequel tells that the hero/heroine actually suffers separation after a period of happiness. If it is, then I think you make a very bad argument why Ao is a bad sequel to E7. Sorry to say this, but things doesn't always end in happily ever after even after people fight for their happiness. Bad things happen even in real life down your life even after you manage to gain happiness, and if the story writer wants to make his story adapt that approach, you can't say it's a bad continuation for that reason.

Analogy wise, it's as if you say gundam seed destiny is a bad sequel to the original seed because athrun and cagalli seperated during the time skip due to some plot reason like they just grew apart even though in the original seed, they're implied to be together happily ever after(well, gsd is a bad sequel, but not for that reason).
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Old 2012-06-11, 04:25   Link #1248
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Originally Posted by Daniel Lind View Post
Again it comes to the fact that AO might not be a poor show on its own, but it's definitely not a good sequel.
When it all comes down to it, this is basically what I am trying to say myself..

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Because the story is obviously tied in to the E7 mythology? And because there are a great many fans who think AO feels very much like a logical E7 successor?

As has been pointed out, what of the many other franchises which have sequels that have no characters in common at all, yet still share a name? We have a show here that's already featured one E7 character (three if you count Nirvash and type theEND) and may feature many more, as it's barely one/third complete.

The unrealistic expectations of a direct, linear sequel came from fans, not BONES.
Well I was asking Flawnalyst because he basically said he didn't care about the original that much (A sentiment I don't share obviously else I wouldn't be here). I was asking if it didn't matter to him so much, then maybe he could agree that this show didn't need to be a sequel, but its own new anime.

Now of course the lore is tied into this show so far, but not in a really meaningful way yet, though that of course may change and I am waiting patiently for it to come about... However, from what I have seen so far I personally don't feel the show has benefited at all from being a "sequel." The fact that it's trying to tell its own story while relying so little on the older series just goes to show me that this is basically an entirely new anime in its own right. Is it a bad show? Hard for me to say at this juncture. Is it a good sequel? Heck no.

It doesn't have to be completely direct, but it should have more tangible connections. That's all I'm saying, and this is very well my opinion on how a sequel should act. I gave my zeta gundam comparison earlier for what I thought was an ideal sequel in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by Flawnalyst View Post
In my opinion, this series does everything a sequel should do. Tell a new story that doesn't mess with the original one, whilst keeping in spirit with the first series. And really, it doesn't have to keep in spirit with the first series that much. As much as I rag on the original E7 series, I do agree with the viewpoint that if you can't feel it in the sequel, then what's the point? But as I have said many times (including in my own blog), while it's different from the first series, it isn't THAT different.
This is just a fundamental disagreement then. To me a sequel should be utilizing the fact that it's a sequel, otherwise why even be a sequel? I think it creates a negative effect otherwise where it could be better by just being its own show. I think since Team Goldilocks showed up, Eureka 7 Ao has stopped feeling like Eureka 7 superficially, but even more than that it's again this lack of tangible connection to the original that bothers me so much. I shouldn't be more concerned about what happened to the old cast, with no information given about then, than I am with the characters on screen, but that's where I stand at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Flawnalyst View Post
For a more literal example, Fate/Zero is completely different from Fate/Stay Night (and no, the fact that it's a prequel instead of a sequel doesn't excuse it from being the same as this anime is to E7), but it doesn't mess with the original series in any way. And that series wasn't even written by the creators. It's from Gen Urobuchi. Okay, Fate/Stay Night has the advantage of being a bad series while E7 wasn't, but that doesn't make much difference to me. For an actual sequel, there's Aquarion Evol. I never saw the original series, but from what I've heard, it was bad, so staying too close to the spirit of the original would have been stupid. The sequel is one of my favorite series of the year and I'm pretty sure that it's goofier than the first series as well. Okay, it's been getting some flak recently, but I still think it's great.
Heh well Fate/Zero is certainly different from Fate/Stay Night the anime (A piece of shit adaption). Fate/Zero was actually the prequel of the visual novel, not the anime, and the visual novel while a bit different in some respects, is VERY similar and intricately connected to Fate/Zero. So I don't think this comparison really helps show your point to me better.

Now of course if you disliked the original series for some franchise, and you liked the sequel, you're not going to have complaints. I think the issue here is when a fan who loved a series comes to a sequel that doesn't really feel like a sequel, regardless of whether it's more objectively good or bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
Because the world setting still has some connection with the original E7(scub coral and Eureka herself), although where they plan to bring the connection to is still anyone guess. It's like saying turn A gundam, V gundam, ad ZZ gundam don't deserve to be put in gundam UC timeline because Amuro, bright and the original Gundam cast don't appear, when the director himself(tomino) already said they are.
So far all I'm saying is that this sequel is so different so far that I have no idea how it is benefiting by being a sequel story wise. This can change, and if it does I'll acknowledge it, but this hasn't been the case so far and I don't find it appropriate to not put the audience more at ease that what they're watching really is E7 in a more tangible way.

First all of ZZ gundam actually picks up directly after Zeta Gundam. That's a direct linear sequel. Though in this case, that show was just bad because Tomino decided to change the tone of the series drastically (This wasn't long after Zeta finished airing, so it was definitely felt). Turn a Gundam really isn't a sequel honestly, and there's a lot of dispute about it. If anything its a sequel to many different timelines of Gundam, but it really isn't what I'd think is a UC timeline Gundam. Lastly, I haven't seen Victory Gundam so I can't comment on that.

Anyways, as I said to Enzo my question was meant more specifically for Flawanalyst because he said he didn't care bout the original.
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Old 2012-06-11, 04:44   Link #1249
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If we're going to stray into 'what makes a "good" sequel' territory, perhaps that discussion should be made in its own thread in the General Anime forum...
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Old 2012-06-11, 05:10   Link #1250
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Well it's obvious that this sequel is Bones cashing in on probably their most popular franchise.
Uh.... about that...

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Old 2012-06-11, 06:46   Link #1251
Daniel Lind
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Sorry to say this, but things doesn't always end in happily ever after even after people fight for their happiness. Bad things happen even in real life down your life even after you manage to gain happiness, and if the story writer wants to make his story adapt that approach, you can't say it's a bad continuation for that reason.
Let me explain. E7 was all about love. Eureka and Renton getting together was the whole driving force in the story. It's like a fairy tale in a way that ends on a happily ever after, a very obvious one at that. It's a very romantic series, so the cynical "well, bad things happen, especially in real life" just cheapens the feeling and the message in my eyes. It's like we're dismissing one of the main themes of the show because it's largely a romantic dream. That's just not right, guys. If you want cynical realism, watch the news. A sequel begins with undermining the final achievements of the previous work, how is it not a bad thing?

It's a subjective thing on the level of feelings so I didn't let it get in the way of my giving this show a chance and I'm bringing this up now only because of everything else that rubs me in the wrong way about AO.

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Old 2012-06-11, 07:06   Link #1252
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Uh.... about that...
That whole list has already been cashed in. Eureka 7 is the only one left.
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Old 2012-06-11, 08:41   Link #1253
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Let me explain. E7 was all about love. Eureka and Renton getting together was the whole driving force in the story. It's like a fairy tale in a way that ends on a happily ever after, a very obvious one at that. It's a very romantic series, so the cynical "well, bad things happen, especially in real life" just cheapens the feeling and the message in my eyes. It's like we're dismissing one of the main themes of the show because it's largely a romantic dream. That's just not right, guys. If you want cynical realism, watch the news. A sequel begins with undermining the final achievements of the previous work, how is it not a bad thing?
Eureka 7 pictured love as a beautiful thing and something that can be incredibly happy, and could make people happy. It also believed two people can be together despite everything.

However it never shied away from showing the realities of the world, and that love can't save everyone. It didn't save Ray and Charles, it didn't save that black girl, it didn't save all those people. Half of Renton's growth is accepting the harsh realities of the world. This includes all those sacrifices people had to make just so Eureka and Renton could end up together.

Just because the show didn't focus on that bad shit to an extreme and didn't have Renton not accepting the bad shit that happened near the end doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Really all this comes back to you whining that this is not Eureka 7 Destiny, the people behind this already stated that the sequel is not gonna carry over the same themes as the previous series and there's no written rule that states that a sequel has to follow the same themes as the original.
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Old 2012-06-11, 08:48   Link #1254
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This includes all those sacrifices people had to make just so Eureka and Renton could end up together.
Way to go, making all these sacrifices worth so little then.
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Old 2012-06-11, 08:53   Link #1255
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Way to go, making all these sacrifices worth so little then.
Which is the point. Your lovey dovey love conquers all ending didn't happened without thousands of innocent people dying in the process. The series was more of a coming of age story with Renton realizing the harsh realities of the world that it was about it's romance. There's meaning to Talho's words when Renton sorties out with the Nirvash one final time when she saids "He's surpassed us" at the end of the series.
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Old 2012-06-11, 09:30   Link #1256
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Oh right, I forgot about Fullmetal Alchemist. Aside from that series though, while I like stuff like Darker than Black, it had a bunch of wasted potential, even if they did sell well.

And yes, I get that if the sequel is an improvement on the original (this series isn't. I just like what it's doing more than the first one), then people won't complain too much. That's just a difference in opinion, but I've made it clear I'm open to sequels as long as it contains the criteria I mentioned earlier.
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Old 2012-06-11, 11:20   Link #1257
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And yes, I get that if the sequel is an improvement on the original (this series isn't. I just like what it's doing more than the first one), then people won't complain too much. That's just a difference in opinion, but I've made it clear I'm open to sequels as long as it contains the criteria I mentioned earlier.
It doesn't matter. There's always gonna be haters or people who prefer the original regardless of the actual quality. So far most of the complaints I've seen are baseless and don't really go into the technical and writing issues the sequel has rather it's doesn't carry the same feel as the original or I've yet to see the old characters yet. Hell they're actual people disputing it as a sequel or not which shows how silly this has gotten. Not ruling out the possibility that they're people who sincerely dislike the direction of this sequel (though why are they still watching I can't tell) but so far all I've seen is too much whining and not alot of discussion.
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Old 2012-06-11, 11:39   Link #1258
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Let me explain. E7 was all about love. Eureka and Renton getting together was the whole driving force in the story. It's like a fairy tale in a way that ends on a happily ever after, a very obvious one at that. It's a very romantic series, so the cynical "well, bad things happen, especially in real life" just cheapens the feeling and the message in my eyes. It's like we're dismissing one of the main themes of the show because it's largely a romantic dream. That's just not right, guys. If you want cynical realism, watch the news. A sequel begins with undermining the final achievements of the previous work, how is it not a bad thing?

It's a subjective thing on the level of feelings so I didn't let it get in the way of my giving this show a chance and I'm bringing this up now only because of everything else that rubs me in the wrong way about AO.
Before I was more open minded to sequels having certian liberties but Aquarion EVOL, a sequel to Genesis like AO is to E7, has opened my eyes. Some things just shouldn't be tampered with if you're going to use the sequel tag. However, this series is still relatively new. Perhaps they have a plan for connecting everything? I for one wil hope for the best but if you want to know what's the worst that can happen than watch Genesis than EVOL. That's the worst that could happen to both E7 and AO and you can only hope nothing like that occurs here.
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Old 2012-06-11, 16:28   Link #1259
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One interesting point to consider is since there have been staff changes (the writer is different right?), you can in fact consider it a different type of sequel altogether. If a different author writes a sequel to a book it probably won't be accepted by many fans. I'm waiting till the whole series is done before I come to any conclusions (I may like it and be fine with it as a 'spiritual successor' if nothing more...or I may hate it and pretend it doesn't exist, the original E7 however, still does!).

It's kind of the reason I'm not watching the series yet, I'd rather not be disappointed in real time week by week. I'd rather know if it's good (by your reactions) by the end, and ultimately judge it myself later when all the cards are on the table. My appreciation for AO, should it exist, would be shown with cold hard cash (I'd buy the dvds).
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Old 2012-06-11, 16:54   Link #1260
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It doesn't matter. There's always gonna be haters or people who prefer the original regardless of the actual quality. So far most of the complaints I've seen are baseless and don't really go into the technical and writing issues the sequel has rather it's doesn't carry the same feel as the original or I've yet to see the old characters yet. Hell they're actual people disputing it as a sequel or not which shows how silly this has gotten. Not ruling out the possibility that they're people who sincerely dislike the direction of this sequel (though why are they still watching I can't tell) but so far all I've seen is too much whining and not alot of discussion.
Well now, sure, there are a lot of complaints about how people "feel" about the show, based on connections to the original, but I've plenty also say they simply don't like the direction it's been heading the past several episodes. As for me, as I said in the beginning, I'm not a fan of the MotW format being used. I think the monsters themselves have proven generic and generally dull in design, and I also feel that their prominence in every recent episode robs us of time better spent on exploring the characters themselves, or even the main plot. There, that's a criticism of the direction being taken.

On a different note, I do wish people would stop using "that's what happens in real life" to defend things such as Renton and Eureka not being together, as if it's a blanket defense for any problem people might have with the series. This is not real life. This is a fictional story, a narrative, and these often have rules, conventions, etc that are different from reality - ones that can and should be played with, bent and broken on occasion, but others that it's generally a better idea to adhere to. And just saying "it's just what happens in real life, deal with it" doesn't necessarily excuse the breaking of certain of these conventions. I won't get into that more since it's a different subject, but as it applies to this show (even though it's still too early to know what the writers have done with this, so take this as a hypothetical), I can perfectly understand why people would be upset at Renton and Eureka having had their happy ending undone, if that is what happened.

You see, you may not want emotionally-based criticism, but this is a TV anime, not, say, a college dissertation. People are going to, as they well should, have complaints about how a sequel "feels," especially if they had an emotional connection to the original. Don't automatically disparage that. As far as I'm concerned, breaking up Eurenton would be/is a very bad move. Many people became, or at least it was clearly the original show's intention for them to become, highly invested in that relationship: we watched them go through a ton of hard and painful times together, as well as some good ones, and that's what the eventual payoff of their happy ending feel so well-earned and satisfying.

To take that conclusion, with all the time and care and buildup it took, and just casually decide to discard that, and offscreen for that matter, I find quite disrespectful. And in a way, it's a bigger 4th wall breaker than Elena could ever be, since it makes it seem like the writers are saying "We don't have any other ideas for this but we want money so we'll just go for the cheap drama of splitting up the main pair who got together in the last installment" (this is something Hollywood sequels have always been disappointingly fond of, as well).

Well, reading over this I think this post makes me sound a lot more upset than I am I don't mean to sound that harsh on AO. I still look forward to it every week, and do enjoy it for the most part. I was pretty bummed about the seeming splitting of Eurenton at the beginning, but I've had time to cope and now I'm mostly just not digging the direction these past few episodes have taken, while waiting and having faith that it'll get better for me. Although, if Renton and Eureka really were apart, and don't get back together by the end of AO and thus re-establish their happy ending, then I'll be really annoyed.

Last edited by Xagzan; 2012-06-11 at 17:12.
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