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Old 2012-07-16, 06:22   Link #1701
Haak
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
No. What transpired in the last two episodes has not justified a single thing about what transpired over episodes 4-11.

These episodes were just poorly made.

The monster of the week format was not the problem in of itself. It's that they made such an uninspiring use of it. The G-monsters are hardly terrifying or mysterious to me, they're just fodder for the good guys to beat up on until something plot relevant happens. There was basically no dramatic tension in these conflicts.
What about how they were used in relation to the characters and the setting? What about that one Secret that scared the crap out of Ao so much but he still had the testicular fortitude to put his life on the line for a risky experiment? And the same secret that Ivica later pulled off a risky manoeuvre to defeat? What about the Secret that brainwashed the pilots and put Elena’s identity into serious question? What about the Secret that killed the Team Goldilocks leader and demonstrated just how serious having child soldiers means to some of those adults as well as how mature some of those children can be when dealing with loss? What about the Secret in the Middle East or the one Japan tried to create or the one in Arizona that brought out the politics into play and showed how cynical political leaders can be in this setting?

Quote:
Now the argument here could be that it was all about establishing good characterization. What characterization in particular are we talking about?

Ao - Is depressed because he didn't know why he joined generation bleu at first, then remains largely static.
In episode 4 he decided to join Generation Bleu because he wants to find his mother.
In episode 5 and 6 he comes to terms with being a soldier and realises he and his teammates are putting their lives at risk and losses can happen easily.
In Episode 7, Truth essentially steals Naru away from him and in doing so Ao becomes obsessed with taking him down.
In Episode 8 his relationship with Fleur is developed more as they realise they both share a certain similarity.
In Episode 9, Ao refuses to take Rebecka’s bait and bring political beliefs into the equation when ordered not to deal with a Secret.
In Episode 10, Ao reverses the Pied Piper symbolism quite spectacularly.

Static? I don’t think so.

Quote:
Elena - Get off the fucking show. Seriously.
She got a whole episode putting her identity into question, linking her with Eureka and possibly suggesting she murdered another girl that looked like her and took her identity.

Quote:
Team Goldilocks - Pathetic characters, and every time they're on screen the story takes a hit for it.
They were mostly used as plot devices to emphasise the seriousness of child soldiers.

Quote:
Rebecca - Zip.
Zip? Her past involves using propaganda that resulted in an entire nation being wiped out and clearly feels the guilt. She’s not beyond threatening people with a gun and had previously been story’s representative of politically motivated and corrupt adults in Generation Bleu. She’s also been hinted at working with Stanley behind her boss’s back.

Quote:
Gazelle - Like Ao has remained largely static after first 3 episodes and I could care less where he's going anywhere since they have done practically nothing with him.
Except for the first three episodes...

Quote:
I still have no idea why they brought the idea of modern countries into this, it really harmed the establishment of this world IMO. Just not as interesting.
I personally think it makes the story far more grounded and down to earth than most war anime.
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Old 2012-07-16, 07:44   Link #1702
ReddyRedWolf
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Originally Posted by vansonbee View Post
Is there any theory pushing Elena toward possibility of her, being Ao sibling or part of Eureka world?
Oh she knows Eureka going by what the Trapar revealed. She also knows the Gekko and that graffitied moon.

From what we know she isn't Elena and she isn't Miller... So who is she? There is a possibility sh came through this world by Scub Burst.

She knows more than she lets on. She "discovers" what looks like Nirvash Type TheEnd at Gen Bleu's basement and tells the America... Why?

She also know Eureka is gonna give birth in this reality and that she has issues with her.

Could Elena be another adopted child by the Thurstons? Maybe but I have a felling the pink hair is a red herring for relation to Anemone.
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Old 2012-07-16, 08:18   Link #1703
blewin
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finally!! glad I held off watching more till the story moves on a bit more. All the previous episodes just drag so much with nothing more than defeating Secrets (and we don't even know what the purpose of the secrets are, why they only appear when there's a scub burst, and what they intend to do with it).

so glad to see original characters returning not just as a tease (like Claus and Lavi in Last Exile Fam), but actually contributing to the plot and having lots of screentime!

but it's sad to see that Eureka never got to spend time to see her son grow up, and now that she's with him she doesn't realise it's him. If in the end Ao is going to stay in this past timeline, I'm gonna be pissed off that he and Eureka (and Renton too) don't get to spend quality time together as a proper family!
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Old 2012-07-16, 08:50   Link #1704
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You know I getting exasperated in correcting the notion Eureka time traveled to her world's past when what she did was travel to another universe.

This is the first time that Eureka visited AO universe. As evidenced by having a copy of Nirvash Spec2 which has two cockpits. Renton is referenced building the Mark I. Eureka is 6 months pregnant.

Eureka will return to her universe to Renton. But certain complications due to her child being a hybrid, baby Ao would have problems on high level Trapar E7 Earth.

Eureka return to the AO universe 13 years earlier bringing the finished Nirvash Mark I, to give birth to Ao so he'll survive.

Eureka disappears 2 years later in a Scub Burst extracting Quarts.
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Old 2012-07-16, 10:04   Link #1705
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Old 2012-07-16, 10:06   Link #1706
Daniel Lind
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We got to know what happens
To quote a certain person:
"I like how even the promotional material for this show is happy to admit it's been 3 months of nothing"

Also HELL YEAH ROBOT HANDSHAKE
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Old 2012-07-16, 10:45   Link #1707
Dark Wing
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Originally Posted by Daniel Lind View Post
To quote a certain person:
"I like how even the promotional material for this show is happy to admit it's been 3 months of nothing"
Hey it was worth the wait and wasn't all for not we got to see Ao's development and world building to set the stage of the universe.
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Old 2012-07-16, 11:11   Link #1708
vansonbee
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Oh she knows Eureka going by what the Trapar revealed. She also knows the Gekko and that graffitied moon.

From what we know she isn't Elena and she isn't Miller... So who is she? There is a possibility sh came through this world by Scub Burst.

She knows more than she lets on. She "discovers" what looks like Nirvash Type TheEnd at Gen Bleu's basement and tells the America... Why?

She also know Eureka is gonna give birth in this reality and that she has issues with her.

Could Elena be another adopted child by the Thurstons? Maybe but I have a felling the pink hair is a red herring for relation to Anemone.
Thanks for the reply.

She might be one of the trio adopted sibling, but the age gap isn't big enough, for that to be possible.

Someone show a photo of Elena as a child and it seem she has a different color hair (blonde) and light skin.

I recall the old series has a villain with pink hair and the same race as Eureka.

Either way, I hope she not the same as "Truth".
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Old 2012-07-16, 11:24   Link #1709
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Originally Posted by vansonbee View Post
Thanks for the reply.

She might be one of the trio adopted sibling, but the age gap isn't big enough, for that to be possible.

Someone show a photo of Elena as a child and it seem she has a different color hair (blonde) and light skin.
That was a different Elena, the original Elena Peoples who died. The current Elena we saw in a flashback to her younger self in ep 11, and she had the same skin and hair colors.
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Old 2012-07-16, 14:29   Link #1710
vansonbee
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Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
That was a different Elena, the original Elena Peoples who died. The current Elena we saw in a flashback to her younger self in ep 11, and she had the same skin and hair colors.
I might of missed something. Will episode 11 fill me in all those loops holes, I missed?
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Old 2012-07-16, 14:56   Link #1711
Xagzan
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You didn't see 11? Yeah, you should get on that
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Old 2012-07-16, 17:02   Link #1712
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
What about how they were used in relation to the characters and the setting? What about that one Secret that scared the crap out of Ao so much but he still had the testicular fortitude to put his life on the line for a risky experiment? And the same secret that Ivica later pulled off a risky manoeuvre to defeat? What about the Secret that brainwashed the pilots and put Elena’s identity into serious question? What about the Secret that killed the Team Goldilocks leader and demonstrated just how serious having child soldiers means to some of those adults as well as how mature some of those children can be when dealing with loss? What about the Secret in the Middle East or the one Japan tried to create or the one in Arizona that brought out the politics into play and showed how cynical political leaders can be in this setting?
Except Ao has plot armor and no real lasting damage would be done to him, and I still don't see any lasting mental effects of this (Most of his troubles still stem from his issues with his mother and the Truth kidnapping Naru). Maybe the character himself felt in danger, but for me it basically just going through the motions and then he miraculously figures out how to defeat it like all the other secrets before and nothing bad ever really happened.

As for the other matters, they occur on such a detached manner that it never really begs me to care. The show has done a remarkably poor job on connecting on a personal level through its characters emotions and feelings in comparison to its predecessor. I'm sure you've heard the saying, "one death is a tragedy, a million is just a statistic." And not to reflect nicely on the person who stated it, but these words ring true. How do you truly deliver the weight of the actions on screen? By getting into the personal stories of a character, getting put in their shoes and experiencing what they feel. This has been absent for much of the story during these episodes.

Their lone attempt at such a personalized death was team goldilock's leader. However, we barely knew the guy, so when he died I did not care at all about it. This established zero connection with the audience. And lets not mention the rest of team goldilocks are a bunch of annoying female children (Every pilot but Ao is a female child HMMMMMM???). I cannot even take the story seriously when you're supposed to be empathizing with a loli child who for most of her introduction just seemed really immature and can barely enunciate her words, and all of a sudden is supposed to be paragon of wisdom compared to Ao. Sorry just no.

The episode about Elena's identity was an even bigger joke to me because she is the most awful character in the show. All she does is make jokes with otaku references and barely had a semblance of a genuine personality that seemed human, and now they expect us to sit here and be like "Oh cool backstory?" This is not how characterization works. You first establish a reason to be interested, then you delve into her story. Elena never earned this, and so I could not care at all about what was happening. Plus if I recall that episode correctly, the first half of it was spent doing absolutely pointless crap before anything of interest started happening.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
In episode 4 he decided to join Generation Bleu because he wants to find his mother.
In episode 5 and 6 he comes to terms with being a soldier and realises he and his teammates are putting their lives at risk and losses can happen easily.
In Episode 7, Truth essentially steals Naru away from him and in doing so Ao becomes obsessed with taking him down.
In Episode 8 his relationship with Fleur is developed more as they realise they both share a certain similarity.
In Episode 9, Ao refuses to take Rebecka’s bait and bring political beliefs into the equation when ordered not to deal with a Secret.
In Episode 10, Ao reverses the Pied Piper symbolism quite spectacularly.

Static? I don’t think so.
When I say static, I mean there has not been a growth in character. Did Ao change as a person during this time, or is he simply the same old Ao we already got to know? He's gone through experiences, many of which I find to be a droll, but has the plot forced him to change as a person? I don't really think so.

He joined generation bleu. Sure, but you know what? He already had a complex about his mother from episodes 1-3 and his decision to join was practically made for him by the events around him rather than his own will. He had to go because of what just took place on his island.

I'm also not quite sure he ever really came to terms with anything regarding being a soldier. This character arc of his hasn't moved forward, it's only been introduced. He still hasn't come to an answer yet, however, I'm not blaming these episodes for that since this won't be resolved till later.

Ao thirsting for revenge or justice is also not really growth.

Ao still takes crazy risks, ignores orders at times, and does other crap, but he has never been forced to truly reevaluate himself or change in this show. A character who does not grow, and who we have become increasingly detached to until recently just isn't that interesting to me.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
She got a whole episode putting her identity into question, linking her with Eureka and possibly suggesting she murdered another girl that looked like her and took her identity.
I already commented above about Elena, but she is such a ridiculous character that I see no reason to care about her and wish she would disappear from the show.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
They were mostly used as plot devices to emphasise the seriousness of child soldiers.
I thought it was emphasizing cute little moe girls so people would toss cash at this show. But again see above.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Zip? Her past involves using propaganda that resulted in an entire nation being wiped out and clearly feels the guilt. She’s not beyond threatening people with a gun and had previously been story’s representative of politically motivated and corrupt adults in Generation Bleu. She’s also been hinted at working with Stanley behind her boss’s back.
I'll admit I was wrong in my statement here.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Except for the first three episodes...
Which I stated were the episodes I most enjoyed so far in this story .

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I personally think it makes the story far more grounded and down to earth than most war anime.
If they ever utilized in a way that actually mattered like Muv Luv.
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Old 2012-07-16, 19:04   Link #1713
MeisterBabylon
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A down-2-earth anime will show the mecha losing terribly because of being outnumbered, unwieldy and impractical, and ultimately have a fighter reign supreme, only to then have Humanity crash and burn for taking too long to build it.

Not even muvluv manages that, so that's no down-2-earth anime.
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Old 2012-07-16, 19:15   Link #1714
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon View Post
A down-2-earth anime will show the mecha losing terribly because of being outnumbered, unwieldy and impractical, and ultimately have a fighter reign supreme, only to then have Humanity crash and burn for taking too long to build it.

Not even muvluv manages that, so that's no down-2-earth anime.
Misinterpretation of what I was saying so I'll clarify. Muv Luv actually uses the concept of modern countries in a meaningful way for its plot, I don't the same impression here. Never meant to imply muv luv is down to earth.
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Old 2012-07-16, 19:56   Link #1715
pirateking
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The preview in the episode hints that another "monster of the week" will intervene in the fight between truth and the 2 Nirvashes, and Ao eventually learns something that will "drive him into despair". Can't wait to find out what further info will we find out from Truth in the next episode.
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Old 2012-07-16, 20:42   Link #1716
bigdeath
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It just was more alive in general.
But here we had to work our way through fantastically boring episodes about Goldilocks (who even now are completely uninteresting) and then Truth (enough said about that character) and then three formulaic stiff episodes about fighting Secrets. There was no oomph and very little spirit to any of these like in #12 or #13 to compensate for all this tedious boringness. The stretch between #4 and #11 felt completely unlike E7. It is especially weird when you look at just how great and dynamic episodes 2 or 13 are. 11 was odd, but it was rather Eureka-ish. So... what happened there in between? Mind it, I don't think that these episodes don't contain anything relevant to the plot or something like that, they just weren't really... inspired. It's like they had this "okay in this episode we talk about Fleur, in this about Ivica. Okay. What to pad the time with. I get it, steal a couple of angel fights from Eva!" Ehhhhhhhh. It's easy to brush off someone "not feeling" the show (especially when it's different for you) but it doesn't mean they're wrong especially if they try and justify their opinion and it certainly doesn't mean that you should call them fanboys or sheep or fools or something just because they find it difficult to get into a show they desperately want to, but can't. The problem was that certain someone won't stop talking about people discussing the show rather than about the show itself.
And yes, some people were looking forward to seeing Eureka back, and these episodes were even more dragging for them, it's normal and you should accept that even if you don't agree.

Even without looking back at the original E7, argument "oh, it gets better N hours in!" is inherently flawed. That's what people used to defend Final Fantasy 13 "Oh, but the REAL game begins at a point! Only 20 hours in!" but that doesn't change that you'd have to sit through 20 hours of painful mediocrity to get there.
Err, I like FF13 and I've enjoyed the AO episodes..... One could make a lot of complaints about needless episodes in the original. Formulaic, perhaps, but I find it entertaining.
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Old 2012-07-17, 01:09   Link #1717
Daniel Lind
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Ao still takes crazy risks, ignores orders at times, and does other crap
And never gets called out on it by the way.
And this isn't even Gekkostate! This is GenBlue, something that's more military-like even in appeara---- ahaha sorry couldn't say that with a straight face, all these little girls in pilot seats must've distracted me. That one time he tried to leave on Nirvash he just kinda got a pat on the head. I mean come on, even Shinji got his crap slapped when he did really stupid things. Oh well!

Absolutely agree with Reckoner about mishandling of Bruno and Elena.
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Old 2012-07-17, 01:17   Link #1718
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Goldilocks seems like a running pun for them... Hilarious how the President completely disregards Goldilocks and just says leave it to Ao. Poor team can't ever get a break.
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Old 2012-07-17, 04:52   Link #1719
Haak
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Except Ao has plot armor and no real lasting damage would be done to him, and I still don't see any lasting mental effects of this (Most of his troubles still stem from his issues with his mother and the Truth kidnapping Naru). Maybe the character himself felt in danger, but for me it basically just going through the motions and then he miraculously figures out how to defeat it like all the other secrets before and nothing bad ever really happened.
I thought it was an extremely heroic moment for Ao that pretty much tops all the others so far. He managed to find a way to save people even when he doesn’t have Nirvash on hand.

Quote:
As for the other matters, they occur on such a detached manner that it never really begs me to care. The show has done a remarkably poor job on connecting on a personal level through its characters emotions and feelings in comparison to its predecessor. I'm sure you've heard the saying, "one death is a tragedy, a million is just a statistic." And not to reflect nicely on the person who stated it, but these words ring true. How do you truly deliver the weight of the actions on screen? By getting into the personal stories of a character, getting put in their shoes and experiencing what they feel. This has been absent for much of the story during these episodes.

Their lone attempt at such a personalized death was team goldilock's leader. However, we barely knew the guy, so when he died I did not care at all about it. This established zero connection with the audience. And let’s not mention the rest of team goldilocks are a bunch of annoying female children (Every pilot but Ao is a female child HMMMMMM???). I cannot even take the story seriously when you're supposed to be empathizing with a loli child who for most of her introduction just seemed really immature and can barely enunciate her words, and all of a sudden is supposed to be paragon of wisdom compared to Ao. Sorry just no.
The general point was that they were emphasising just how much of a child she really was by making her a loli that could barely speak. The fact that she acts mature most of the time is meant to provide as a contrast. The sudden death of the Team Goldilocks was also the point. Ao barely knew him and he died literally the next mission. When he died, I did actually care because we saw just how much he cared about protecting the children. The scene where Ao looks into his room is meant to drive the point home that the man was someone who took the implications of child soldiers extremely seriously (“Never let the children die”) and that was something that I admired so I genuinely felt sorry for his death because he was clearly a respectable adult.

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The episode about Elena's identity was an even bigger joke to me because she is the most awful character in the show. All she does is make jokes with otaku references and barely had a semblance of a genuine personality that seemed human, and now they expect us to sit here and be like "Oh cool backstory?" This is not how characterization works. You first establish a reason to be interested, then you delve into her story. Elena never earned this, and so I could not care at all about what was happening. Plus if I recall that episode correctly, the first half of it was spent doing absolutely pointless crap before anything of interest started happening.
She never earned this? Really? So you’re saying that just because you didn’t like the fact that she always made otaku references, any attempt at making her more complex is pointless? It sounds to me like you just have a problem with those characters altogether, not that there wasn’t any characterisation.

Let me give you an idea of how I felt about Elena: When we were first introduced to Elena, I found her funny and charming but i was ultimately disappointed because it seemed the most we would ever get out of her otaku references and fanservice. Then we were shown a completely different side to her when she met Truth in Episode 7. She wasn’t just wearing completely different clothes but it seemed this new identity was a hidden one. Not only that but she was also uncharacteristically calm at seeing Truth murder a whole bunch of people right in her face. And Truth showed an interest in her as well, telling her that she “sings the truth” which she reacted too. It should be noted that the theme of that episode seemed to be hidden identities what with Truth shape shifting, Rebecka and Stanley colluding behind their boss’s back and Elena having her own secret identity. And given the episode title was “No one is innocent”, I’m pretty sure it’s safe to say that was meant to be the hook you were looking for.

In Episode 11, Elena’s character is explored completely. No it doesn’t start half way through. It starts immediately with Gazelle investigating Elena and Mirror’s past (I don’t know why you find the thought of Elena’s company catching on to her hidden identity and actually investigating, not interesting). Not only do we find out that she has a major identity crisis but we also find out she’s connected to Eureka and that she potentially murdered someone.

As I said before, I was disappointed with her because it seemed she wasn’t going to be anyone. That’s actually what the storywriters intended. They lulled us into a false belief that Elana was just there for otaku references and fanservice and then they hit us with all this. Because the last person you’d expect to have a connection to Eureka and a murder is the girl that’s only seemingly there as comic relief. They took that trope and subverted it hard. That was the point. And I thought it was brilliant.

Quote:
When I say static, I mean there has not been a growth in character. Did Ao change as a person during this time, or is he simply the same old Ao we already got to know? He's gone through experiences, many of which I find to be a droll, but has the plot forced him to change as a person? I don't really think so.

He joined generation bleu. Sure, but you know what? He already had a complex about his mother from episodes 1-3 and his decision to join was practically made for him by the events around him rather than his own will. He had to go because of what just took place on his island.

I'm also not quite sure he ever really came to terms with anything regarding being a soldier. This character arc of his hasn't moved forward, it's only been introduced. He still hasn't come to an answer yet, however, I'm not blaming these episodes for that since this won't be resolved till later.

Ao thirsting for revenge or justice is also not really growth.

Ao still takes crazy risks, ignores orders at times, and does other crap, but he has never been forced to truly reevaluate himself or change in this show. A character who does not grow, and who we have become increasingly detached to until recently just isn't that interesting to me.
You’re expecting character change when the purpose of the episodes was to provide character expansion. Character change at this point would’ve simply been foolish and bad writing. You can tell from the storytelling that this series is plot driven. That means any character change ought to tie into the plot. There’s no point in having character change when it has no relation to the plot, because then you’re just left thinking “Well what’s the point?”. The only time that really works is when you’re trying to develop a relationship (Like with Ao and Fleur). And the plot in those episodes was purposely being developed slowly. And Ao’s new found thirst for revenge is definitely lead to change in his character.

Character expansion can be an extremely effective method of good characterisation. If you're really good then you don't even need character change. Take Iskander from Fate/Zero for example. Probably the most popular character in that series (at least on this forum) and he never went through any sort of change. Just a heck of a lot of character expansion. I'm not saying that's what Ao has to be but it seems clear to me that character expansion is a legitimate way of characterization.


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I thought it was emphasizing cute little moe girls so people would toss cash at this show. But again see above.
Gazelle’s speech to his father about the older generation was screwing up the younger. Generation Bleu. The Pied Piper. “Never let the children die”. “I hate my father”. The perspective of different generations is a prominent theme throughout the entire series. The little girls are there for a reason. If you can’t appreciate a trope being played with simply because you don’t like the trope itself, then that has nothing to do with bad writing. It’s just different taste.

Quote:
Which I stated were the episodes I most enjoyed so far in this story .
Well they did happen. I know 8 out of 13 is a lot but only by about 60%. There’s a whole 40% of the show so far exactly what you wished for isn’t there? So why are you already writing this off as a failure?

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If they ever utilized in a way that actually mattered like Muv Luv.
The politics in Eureka Seven AO is far more ambitious than Muv Luv. Eureka Seven Ao presents politics such as trying to control Secrets to be used against other countries, manipulating the existence of Secrets for territorial disputes and currying privileges, or else preventing Secrets from being dealt with so they can deal as much harm as possible to country another may not like. The politics is a major theme throughout the show that has also contributed to the plot such as when Truth colludes with the hawkish Japanese general.

In comparison Muv Luv seems to be more straightforward. Aliens have invaded and countires collaborate to defeat a common enemy. There seems to be some issues with cooperation but I think it’s very unlikely we’ll see anything on the same level as Eureka Seven AO. But really we’re only three episodes in so making any comparisons to begin would be premature.
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Old 2012-07-17, 08:55   Link #1720
Daniel Lind
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Okay, here's the problem with the children soldiers concept.
It's practically forced here.
It's been implied very thoroughly that Generation Blue does not operate simply on righteous ideas and that there are undercover issues driving the organization. Do... Do the Secrets even need a beating? What is required for IFO pilots, exposition to trapar? But Scubs have been coming for quite a long period of time now. So all these reasons to put small girls in pilot seats seem rather contrived and the moral drama of leading children into battle falls flat on its face. It doesn't always happen in this show though. Gazelle's daddy issues and Ao's sentiment about not wanting to disappoint the upcoming generation come through but then you have these members of this organization feeling remorse about exploiting kids and... what? Huh?

And believe me, every time Truth appears he tends to cloud people's judgement about finer points that might be happening around just because of how horrendous he himself is presented.
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harem, mecha, military, romance, science fiction, shounen

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