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View Poll Results: Claymore - Chapter 122 Rating
Perfect 10 3 6.38%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 8 17.02%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 10 21.28%
7 out of 10 : Good 11 23.40%
6 out of 10 : Average 9 19.15%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 6.38%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 4.26%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 2.13%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 47. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2012-01-02, 06:19   Link #241
Fermat
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Hm, interesting that the Roxanne vs Cassandra debate has resurfaced... I suppose it's because we're trying to predict which of the two as ZAOs will prevail. I really do hope Yagi won't deny us another AO vs AO fight (*cough* Isley vs Luciela *cough*), but my intuition tells me the manga will just pan to an image where one ZAO is dying and the other is broken but left standing (or in Cassandra's case, leaning back lewdly and displaying her tentacle-filled privates).

As for the issue at hand... I'm part of the "she could have evaded but chose not to/was too angry to care" group. Dust Eater's evasive potential is tremendous, and I believe Cassandra could've evaded those blows, albeit with much more difficulty than what she showed against the three limbless wonders since there were far more warriors present, if she were of sound mind. Still, it was a very foolish course of action.

As for whether she could've actually gotten a blow in with Roxanne being able to use the Blade of Evil, we can't say for certain. Cassandra herself said she didn't lose speed despite her injuries, i.e. her DE was still at its peak destructive capacity, but was stopped by the BoE quite easily. Without DE, Cassandra pretty much sucks, or so Roxanne claims, so in the end Roxanne might still have the upper hand then. However, I don't see Roxanne having any capacity to do a BoE-like move in her awakened form, so Cassandra might have the upper hand presently.
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Old 2012-01-02, 09:22   Link #242
Claymore!
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Originally Posted by Fermat View Post
Hm, interesting that the Roxanne vs Cassandra debate has resurfaced... I suppose it's because we're trying to predict which of the two as ZAOs will prevail. I really do hope Yagi won't deny us another AO vs AO fight (*cough* Isley vs Luciela *cough*)
Yeah i would like to see a AO vs. AO fight. It was unfortunate that we didn't get to see Isley's fight. I would have really wanted to see that fight because Isley is my favorite AB character.

Quote:
she could have evaded but chose not to/was too angry to care
Thats what i assumed. She didn't care about killing anyone else except Roxanne. So she just went crazy and starting swinging her sword and cutting down anyone in her path.
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Old 2012-01-02, 09:34   Link #243
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So she was too angry to think rationally and yet she could reason that because she's cutting others, others should also be allowed to cut her? Not to mention that even mentally unstable #1 should have no problems with dealing with small fries and even on that day of the month they should be better than any other Claymore by far. Conclusion: either Cassandra was that bad or Korinov is right and this scene doesn't make sense at all.
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Old 2012-01-02, 10:58   Link #244
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^I was under the impression she came to that conclusion in retrospect.
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Old 2012-01-02, 11:24   Link #245
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First,Cassandra can't be bad at dodging 'cause we have actually seen that she is really amazing at that,especially when she uses her technique. (Not to mention that there is also the "little" detail that Cassy for some "strange" reason was a n.1,and btw she not only was a n.1,she was also considered one of the strongest n.1s in the org's history.......but it's easy to miss this "insignificant" hint about her ability,right?I'm sure she gained that reputation with just luck......)

Second, the whole "i let my comrade cut me" is almost surely something that she did inconsciously,it's not very belivable that she was thinking about that in that precise moment,all she had in her mind was the immense hate for Roxy.......or like White Silver King said it's also possible that that comment was simply a conclusion in retrospect.

Third,Cassandra abilities are irrelevant since she didn't care at all to dodge the attacks.Why should her ability be put in discussion when she didn't even try to use them to avoid attacks? It's stupid to judge her ability based on what happened in that situation.
Even Prissy received SEVERAL injuries that would have been fatal if she wasn't like that.....and the ONLY reason that she had those injuries is because she didn't care at all to be hitten in the first place.
This is proof enough that ability doesn't matter at all,even super mega ultra powerful monsters can be hitten if they don't care to be hitten (so don't even try to dodge).

If someone as powerful as Prissy can be hitten when she doesn't care to be hitted and NO ONE goes around doubting about her ability, i don't understand why when someone like Cassy gets hitten (after she said VERY CLEARLY that she didn't care to be hitten),for some strange reason people consider that as an indication that Cassy's ability wasn't that great.Incredible.

Gooral,why don't you go around saying that even Prissy sucks at dodging?I'm really curious .

Last edited by MalakTawus; 2012-01-02 at 11:39.
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Old 2012-01-02, 11:55   Link #246
MisterJB
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Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
If someone as powerful as Prissy can be hitten when she doesn't care to be hitted and NO ONE goes around doubting about her ability, i don't understand why when someone like Cassy gets hitten (after she said VERY CLEARLY that she didn't care to be hitten),for some strange reason people consider that as an indication that Cassy's ability wasn't that great.Incredible.
It's because the only reason Cassandra allowed herself to be wounded was the fact that, in order to get to Roxanne, she was wounding the other Claymores.
If she saw her actions of wounding her comrades as something fit for punishment, then logic dictates that she didn't want to wound her comrades.
Which begs the question, if she didn't want to wound them, why not avoid them altogether or just outright disable them without dismembering them?
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Old 2012-01-02, 12:09   Link #247
SpiritOfGray
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Personality. Hasn't anyone ever just not cared anymore? Hasn't anyone reached a low point where they purposely do something that they know they shouldn't and feel sorry about it later? Her world just collapsed when the truth of the death of her only friend was revealed. She lashed out at everything, but her personality still held herself back in the process. Part of her wanted to die, and part of her wanted revenge. You can't always get everything. The only thing that I think doesn't make sense about the scene is that she took hours to die, and we are not shown when exactly these hours took place.

Maybe if we knew how the other 2 died then it may make more sense.

Maybe a #10 warrior was there. Cassandra clearly says that Roxanne probably warned the organization when she was thinking back. Maybe the #10 distorted her thoughts or something.

Just because it wasn't the most logical thing doesn't mean it can't make sense or isn't good for the story.
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Old 2012-01-02, 12:25   Link #248
MalakTawus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
It's because the only reason Cassandra allowed herself to be wounded was the fact that, in order to get to Roxanne, she was wounding the other Claymores.
If she saw her actions of wounding her comrades as something fit for punishment, then logic dictates that she didn't want to wound her comrades.
Which begs the question, if she didn't want to wound them, why not avoid them altogether or just outright disable them without dismembering them?
I already answered this question,and btw even Cassy said very clearly: she lost her mind.
She didn't care to be cutted and,like i have already said, the whole "i let my comrades cut me to pay for my sin" is clearly not something that she did consciously,she acted that way by instinct and not with reason (since she herself said that she had lost it).
Like i said it's not belivable that in the peak of her immense rage towards Roxy she was really thinking about her sin for cutting comrades (after losing her mind),it's clearly something that she did unconsciously,or like someone else already suggested it can simply be Cassy's retrospection.

--------------------------------------------

IMO the only logical explanation about Cassy surviving for several hours is that she didn't fight for several hours but simply she didn't die for a long time even after her body was completely destroyed,something like that.
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Old 2012-01-02, 12:45   Link #249
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Possibly but that is a very specific level of "losing it".
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Old 2012-01-02, 13:02   Link #250
little_angel
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Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
1-Sorry but you are wrong,even when both of them awakened Cassy continued to consider Roxy inferior and said to her that she was just a number two.
Also their mind don't completely change,if Cassy consider Roxy just a number two is because even in her normal form she saw her just as a number two,it's useless trying to deny this evidence.
Ehm,it's a FACT that Roxy didn't fight against Cassy.
The only reasonthat Cassy was hurt is because she WANTED to be hurt during that attack (and btw Roxy wasn't the one to hurt Cassy!!!Roxy just gave her the killing blow at the very end,like a coward,lol).All that Roxy did was killing Cassy when she was already in very critical conditions.
It's a fact that Roxy killed all her other friends alone,and it's also a fact that instead Roxy decided to kill Cassy in thta way.It doesn't take a genius that the ONLY logical reason for her to change her pattern is because Roxy wasn't confident to be able to kill Cassy in a one on one fight.

Also knowing about a technique helps sometimes but it's meaningless most of the times,lol.
Example: the ghosts know perfectly well about Claire's QS.Do you think that can help them if Claire was trying to kill them? NO!!!

Just because Roxy saw Cassy's technique it doesn't mean that she can defeat her,those are two completely different things.

Also it's 100% sure that Cassy awakened simply because she remembered about Roxy and was FURIOUS.

Also your theory is weak as hell 'cause not even Histy needed to awaken to kill Miria,lol. If instead of awakening she simply take out the sword from the neck and continued fighting like normal she would have surely won 'cause there is no doubt that Histy is A LOT stronger than Miria even if she stays in human form.
Miria won only thanx to a trick,no way that would have happened a second time.

The ONLY one that was forced to awaken was Roxy,no one else.

2- Considering the difference in speed (with great control) and power,if Histy wants to kill someone there is absolutely nothing that the ghosts can do atm.
Their only chance is to hope that Histy understimate them too much and gives them the opportunity to do something to lower the accuracy of her movements (maybe cutting her hooks to the ground),at this point MAYBE Miria can do something to kill her (since it would be very bad for Histy to have an immense speed with no control over it).
BUT this will work only if Histy lowers her guard too much,if she fights mercilessly from the very beginning she could easily kill all of the ghosts in a few moments.

3-It would be an interesting theory if it wans't for the fact that we have seen clearly that she doesn't leave her spikes to the ground in the beginning (but maybe that's what she is planning to do at the very end when she launches all her spikes).
Anyway even with your theory,linking ONLY to one hook (that's what you said) to change direction would give her a very bad manouvrability.
1- Ok you're really seeing every proof I listed the way you wanted to see it.

a- Cassandra was cut in a way that no matter what she does she wont survive without awakening so her chances vs Roxanne are below zero!!!! Probably a number 9 can easily finish her without having any problems.

b- Cassandra's rage is undeniable but that doesn't mean rage is the key to the inevitable awakening that Dae talked about. And I only logicked two ways either conscious battle or the feeling path:
- the feeling path is that they must feel a certain way in order to awaken and the only thing fits in is unable to defeat the opponent like the three felt when they awakened (Cassandra with her missed up body, and so is Roxanne and Hysteria when she was dying like I explained before).
- the conscious battle : when there conscious is weaker than the arm's (Priscilla's) then they simply awaken and that means when they are about to die (like Hysteria's case) or lost themselves (Cassandra's case) or simply had a huge doubt about their power and made their conscious weaker than Pris's (probably like Roxanne).

c- The feeling path is undeniably working and you can't say it is wrong unless Yagi says so. but the conscious battle has a weak thing which is Roxanne's because there is no proof that her mind was weaker even when she lost her fore-limbs.

d- Cassandra being stronger than Roxanne now that's based on what a couple of talks but Roxanne being the stronger has a higher chance because there have been many proofs being given by Yagi and Gooral listed them.

2- very true. But I'm not talking atm I'm talking if! but your theory actually is pretty good and I believe this will happen unless Clare & Pris show up.

3- maybe more than one hook doesn't matter what matters is the theory itself physically and logically works and this might happen in the next chapter as Hysteria scattered all her spikes in the last page this chapter.
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Old 2012-01-02, 13:30   Link #251
Gooral
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MisterJB has summed up very well what I've tried to do since 119th chapter. Short and to the point, something I couldn't unfortunately do. Thanks. I hope that irvinethearcher will see my point now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Silver King View Post
^I was under the impression she came to that conclusion in retrospect.
In that case she was rather slow with her attacks for a number 1, even assuming she came to that conclusion after wounding 1st Claymore I would think that number one would be finished with few small fries in a blink of an eye (in other words it would be too late). Somehow I find it unlikely that if she was as powerful, fast and nimble as Malak says she is, other Claymores would have time to react to the opportunity Cassie had given them AFTER she went into dust-eating mode and AFTER she started her whirlwind.

Also my argument that MisterJB has so neatly explained can still be applied here. If she would regain her rational mind (which her conscious decision to let them cut her suggests) then why didn't she stop the limb cutting as soon as she realized what she had done? Some of the Claymores were probably beyond saving and became cripples since her attack makes a mincemeat of limbs and other parts and offensive warriors can't attach mincemeat. If she wanted to be punished she could have done it after she got to Roxanne, not before and she could have started dodging and parrying the attacks to not make a bigger carnage. Are you telling me that her reasoning was so retarded that she preferred to let others cut her while she was cutting them even though she knew she could have easily dodged their attacks and spare their lives/bodies? That doesn't make sense.

But the best argument is Korinov's, as he pointed out Roxanne could disappear from Cassandra in a blink of an eye while other Claymores managed to surround her in a blink of an eye. That's the biggest proof that this scene was poorly drawn and written and in the end can't be used as a measure of Roxanne's or Cassie's strength. If it was used it would make Cassandra a weakling compared to Roxanne.

And let me quote this fragment of my earlier (from 119th thread) post that fits perfectly to the current discussion:
Spoiler for space:

Last edited by Gooral; 2012-01-02 at 13:49.
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Old 2012-01-02, 14:17   Link #252
haegar
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Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
Which begs the question, if she didn't want to wound them, why not avoid them altogether or just outright disable them without dismembering them?
answer: ambivalence; ambiguity; conflicting emotions, state of irrational shock/trauma/rage

she was so darn angry she WANTED to dismember every last fuckin one of them (pardon the language, I am trying to get into her mood of the moment) - at the same time a part of her regreted that. You can easily conceptualize that in terms of subconcious rage and superego control impulses having conflicting goals. She acted out both at the same time. The rage could not be surpressed, so at least it had to be compensated by a self inflicted punishment aka allowing them to cut her back. And that is proof just how much Roxy fucked up the poor girl's mind n soul

As I said, sure you can read powerlevels in there as you folks do, and than the only solution is indeed she was to weak to get to Roxy without being injured - however if you do take into account the psychology I feel it is a scene that is quite sound, and perfectly fits her character.
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Old 2012-01-02, 14:39   Link #253
Awakened
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Originally Posted by MalakTawus View Post
First,Cassandra can't be bad at dodging 'cause we have actually seen that she is really amazing at that,especially when she uses her technique. (Not to mention that there is also the "little" detail that Cassy for some "strange" reason was a n.1,and btw she not only was a n.1,she was also considered one of the strongest n.1s in the org's history.......but it's easy to miss this "insignificant" hint about her ability,right?I'm sure she gained that reputation with just luck......)

Second, the whole "i let my comrade cut me" is almost surely something that she did inconsciously,it's not very belivable that she was thinking about that in that precise moment,all she had in her mind was the immense hate for Roxy.......or like White Silver King said it's also possible that that comment was simply a conclusion in retrospect.

Third,Cassandra abilities are irrelevant since she didn't care at all to dodge the attacks.Why should her ability be put in discussion when she didn't even try to use them to avoid attacks? It's stupid to judge her ability based on what happened in that situation.
Even Prissy received SEVERAL injuries that would have been fatal if she wasn't like that.....and the ONLY reason that she had those injuries is because she didn't care at all to be hitten in the first place.
This is proof enough that ability doesn't matter at all,even super mega ultra powerful monsters can be hitten if they don't care to be hitten (so don't even try to dodge).

If someone as powerful as Prissy can be hitten when she doesn't care to be hitted and NO ONE goes around doubting about her ability, i don't understand why when someone like Cassy gets hitten (after she said VERY CLEARLY that she didn't care to be hitten),for some strange reason people consider that as an indication that Cassy's ability wasn't that great.Incredible.

Gooral,why don't you go around saying that even Prissy sucks at dodging?I'm really curious .
Great post.

The fact that she was #1 is been conveniently ignored.
1. This also means that she could kill any existing Claymore in a one on one fight.
2. She can solo Abs without getting one hit.

The most important thing that people are forgetting is that her skills put limitations on her. Imagine if Miria try to run thought a crowd without using Mirage. She would be dead. Casandra does it and she is called weak.

Casandra loves her friends, she learn her new skill just to protect her friend, in the end she ended up alone. She even hid her skills so that people would not be afraid of her. After her friend was killed by that Ab she gave up on life. The prof is that she did not care if anyone saw her using Dust-eater.

Conclusion, skills needs to be used correctly to be effective. Casandra did not use her skills effectively.


Lets not conveniently forget that Cassandra was missing limbs by the time she got to Roxanne. If Roxanne was so much stronger, why did she hide at the back of the group?

Edit:
We have prof that she can stand up against multiple single-digits. So why do people believe that she could not do it back then when her life depended on it?
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Last edited by Awakened; 2012-01-02 at 14:57.
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Old 2012-01-02, 15:39   Link #254
SpiritOfGray
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Originally Posted by Awakened View Post
Great post.

So why do people believe that she could not do it back then when her life depended on it?
It's not that they don't believe she could, it's that they don't understand her way of dying when there would have been an easier way of fulfilling her will to get revenge. That's why I keep bringing up that no one questions Hysteria's death to lower ranks while she was exceeding her limits and intentionally killing comrades. From what we see in her resurrected fight, if she really wanted to kill everyone in there AND keep her life, she probably would have actually fought Roxanne at that time. So, to some people things just don't add up and the scene is broken, or she was stupid for not doing things the efficient way.

Honestly, the more I look into it, the more I like the scene because it suits her, like haegar said.
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Old 2012-01-02, 16:09   Link #255
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@Awakened
No one ignored the fact Cassandra was #1. The problem is, from the looks of it she doesn't look like a #1. As for you saying that she could kill any existing Claymore in a one on one fight, we don't know that. Roxanne wasn't resurrected without reason, she was supposed to be one of the most powerful #1s ever and was put in a same league as Hysteria and Cassy. And in the first place, if you would read previous posts carefully you would see that the fight suggests Cassandra didn't deserve to be considered a #1, let alone the strongest #1. Seriously, how did you miss all the arguments that were shown in previous 20 posts? As for you saying that she could solo ABs without getting hit, that's not exactly huge accomplishment for a number 1 unless they were single digits at least. Miata could kill ABs with her bare hands and made Agatha sweat. Miria also was a Claymore that not many ABs could hit even before the time-skip. And Irene was in that category even more so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awakened View Post
The most important thing that people are forgetting is that her skills put limitations on her.
WTF? So because her skills put limitations on her we should estimate her power without taking those limitations into account? Or did I miss something here? Cassandra without her dust-eater technique (DE in short for convenience) wasn't even as strong as #4 in Cassandra's generation according to Roxanne and it looked to me she was spot on seeing how she struggled without DE against numbers 3, 5 and 9 from a very weak generation. But the thing is, against this crowd she used her ultimate technique. She went all out, there were no limitations. So it's nothing like Miria going through HQ without using her mirage. What Cassy did was going trough the warriors as fast as she could focusing on offense and ignoring defense. If we were to take Miria as a corresponding example she would do the same but in her case she would go through them in a blink of an eye not giving them any opportunity to strike back. Ignoring defense would be irrelevant in her case since she would be so fast. So if Cassandra couldn't do as much don't act surprised that some of us think she seems weak in that scene.
And in the first place, DE is an overestimated technique for various reasons. Firstly, it limits the range and the angles the attacker can use, secondly the attacker is even more vulnerable to his opponent than vice versa since he's laying on the ground and has limited manoeuvrability. While Cassy can manoeuver in 2D only, her opponent has one dimension more (he can jump for example, not to mention that for example he can more easily step back than Cassy). Thirdly, the attacker needs quite a lot of time to use this technique (that could explain how come Roxanne managed to step away before Cassy even got to her and how come other Claymores managed to surround her). The main advantage of it is that opponents usually don't expect an attack like that but since Roxanne saw it earlier that doesn't apply to her. The second big advantage of Cassy was that she was physically stronger and faster than most Claymores (hence disadvantages of DE weren't as visible and a second of surprise was usually all she needed to quickly take care of her opponent).

And please, read the rest of our arguments (or at least my previous post).

Quote:
Lets not conveniently forget that Cassandra was missing limbs by the time she got to Roxanne.
So? According to her she didn't lose any speed so if it happened, it happened at the end (otherwise it would be impossible for her to reach Roxanne and not lose speed). And Roxanne used a HILT and ended it with one move. That in itself is a handicap. Being defeated by a hilt, especially against technique Cassy used is humiliating. But the most important thing in this is: she was too weak prevent this. One could say she was too stupid but because of the last sentence in this post (the one in spoiler tags) I seriously doubt it.

Quote:
If Roxanne was so much stronger, why did she hide at the back of the group?
Firstly, I think you've missed Korinov's argument that Roxanne could disappear from Cassandra in a blink of an eye while other Claymores managed to surround her in a blink of an eye. She didn't hide at the back of the group as you say, at least not at first. It's Cassie's fault that she wasn't quick enough to attack Roxanne before she was out of her reach. Secondly, why do sth the hard way if you can do it the easy way? She could have killed Cassy without breaking a sweat, only a fool wouldn't do the same. Also, do you think Mike Tyson/Vitali Klitschko/Lennox Lewis/Evander Holyfield is weak because he hires bodyguards? Or that he wouldn't be able to KO 90% of men in the world? Because I don't.
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Old 2012-01-02, 16:57   Link #256
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Originally Posted by Gooral View Post
@Awakened
No one ignored the fact Cassandra was #1. The problem is, from the looks of it she doesn't look like a #1. As for you saying that she could kill any existing Claymore in a one on one fight, we don't know that. Roxanne wasn't resurrected without reason, she was supposed to be one of the most powerful #1s ever and was put in a same league as Hysteria and Cassy. And in the first place, if you would read previous posts carefully you would see that the fight suggests Cassandra didn't deserve to be considered a #1, let alone the strongest #1. Seriously, how did you miss all the arguments that were shown in previous 20 posts? As for you saying that she could solo ABs without getting hit, that's not exactly huge accomplishment for a number 1 unless they were single digits at least. Miata could kill ABs with her bare hands and made Agatha sweat. Miria also was a Claymore that not many ABs could hit even before the time-skip. And Irene was in that category even more so.


WTF? So because her skills put limitations on her we should estimate her power without taking those limitations into account? Or did I miss something here? Cassandra without her dust-eater technique (DE in short for convenience) wasn't even as strong as #4 in Cassandra's generation according to Roxanne and it looked to me she was spot on seeing how she struggled without DE against numbers 3, 5 and 9 from a very weak generation. But the thing is, against this crowd she used her ultimate technique. She went all out, there were no limitations. So it's nothing like Miria going through HQ without using her mirage. What Cassy did was going trough the warriors as fast as she could focusing on offense and ignoring defense. If we were to take Miria as a corresponding example she would do the same but in her case she would go through them in a blink of an eye not giving them any opportunity to strike back. Ignoring defense would be irrelevant in her case since she would be so fast. So if Cassandra couldn't do as much don't act surprised that some of us think she seems weak in that scene.
And in the first place, DE is an overestimated technique for various reasons. Firstly, it limits the range and the angles the attacker can use, secondly the attacker is even more vulnerable to his opponent than vice versa since he's laying on the ground and has limited manoeuvrability. While Cassy can manoeuver in 2D only, her opponent has one dimension more (he can jump for example, not to mention that for example he can more easily step back than Cassy). Thirdly, the attacker needs quite a lot of time to use this technique (that could explain how come Roxanne managed to step away before Cassy even got to her and how come other Claymores managed to surround her). The main advantage of it is that opponents usually don't expect an attack like that but since Roxanne saw it earlier that doesn't apply to her. The second big advantage of Cassy was that she was physically stronger and faster than most Claymores (hence disadvantages of DE weren't as visible and a second of surprise was usually all she needed to quickly take care of her opponent).

And please, read the rest of our arguments (or at least my previous post).


So? According to her she didn't lose any speed so if it happened, it happened at the end (otherwise it would be impossible for her to reach Roxanne and not lose speed). And Roxanne used a HILT and ended it with one move. That in itself is a handicap. Being defeated by a hilt, especially against technique Cassy used is humiliating. But the most important thing in this is: she was too weak prevent this. One could say she was too stupid but because of the last sentence in this post (the one in spoiler tags) I seriously doubt it.


Firstly, I think you've missed Korinov's argument that Roxanne could disappear from Cassandra in a blink of an eye while other Claymores managed to surround her in a blink of an eye. She didn't hide at the back of the group as you say, at least not at first. It's Cassie's fault that she wasn't quick enough to attack Roxanne before she was out of her reach. Secondly, why do sth the hard way if you can do it the easy way? She could have killed Cassy without breaking a sweat, only a fool wouldn't do the same. Also, do you think Mike Tyson/Vitali Klitschko/Lennox Lewis/Evander Holyfield is weak because he hires bodyguards? Or that he wouldn't be able to KO 90% of men in the world? Because I don't.
I like it how you make excuses for Roxanne hiding at the back. Maybe she accidental planed Cassandra's death by getting as many Claymores involved as possible.

chp 119 page 26

"I lost my right arm, I lost my left arm, I lost my left leg, had one eye gouged out" "and yet I drew near to Roxanne without losing speed".

It must have been rely hard for Roxanne to kill someone with nor arms, one eye and one leg.
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Old 2012-01-02, 17:15   Link #257
SpiritOfGray
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Join Date: May 2010
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I honestly think Roxanne didn't want to fight Cassandra because she didn't think her technique was even worthy. Plus she clearly had an abnormal enjoyment out of showing all the Claymores the technique Cassandra wanted to hide. Roxanne is unique, and disturbing. She still is trying to torment Cassandra while being torn to pieces. So I wouldn't say she was afraid. She just did what she enjoyed more.

But personally, I think I underestimate the DE technique. I definitely thought her awakened form was trash until I saw the little Abyssal vs Abyssal skirmish we were lucky enough to see. Now I want more of that and soon. I still think her human form DE is flawed but not in the same way Gooral mentions. If the character just jumps out of the way, that means the DE is working. They aren't attacking her, and they will not win. At best, if a character runs away then Cassandra will always force a draw. But yes, maneuverability is a problem because we really aren't shown it (like when she is supposedly making her way toward Roxanne with Dust Eater), or any use on awkward terrain. So I find it hard to judge. If she were on a rocky hill and Hysteria were charging straight down at her, would she be able to use DE and come out alive? The DE is best used as a counter attack. Counters take more skill than normal attacks because they require reacting to your opponent. Going on an all out offensive probably wouldn't even be a bright idea since it's only using half of the technique, like she was doing at her death.
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Last edited by SpiritOfGray; 2012-01-02 at 17:37.
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Old 2012-01-02, 17:38   Link #258
ynkac
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Berserk technique

Let's assume Cassandra's "dust eating" technique is hard to control, like Claire's awakened legs.

I.e.: Cassandra entered the "dust eating" mode to fight Roxanne and started moving in her direction. Then she was attacked by low-rank claymores. She tried to avoid killing them (and this is why she was hurt), but couldn't avoid it completely.

Seems more or less logical, I think.
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Old 2012-01-02, 19:23   Link #259
Double_friedman
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Join Date: Jul 2008
To me it's clear by the scene at the headquarters that Cass was inferior to Roxanne. Despite being so strong, so fast and "muscular" she received so many wounds from way inferior (according to Rox or someone) warriors. Also if Cass did not lose speed, it means that Roxxie would have been able to stop Cass at the beginning of her DE if she had wanted, but chose to first exposed her and then finish her.
Besides, Cass struggled against the three single digits which were shown to be inferior to the twins. Despite being able to kill the twins, Miria without using yoki was unable to knock them down. So Roxxie easily defeated the twins (and the fact that Raftela was able to use her technique on Roxxie doesn't mean she's weak, it means she's used to fighting without completely concealing her yoki; Teresa never used much yoki, but never supressed it).
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Old 2012-01-02, 20:33   Link #260
MalakTawus
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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There is so much that i'd want to point out but i'll end up repeating myself and anyway it seems pointless.

For now i'll just say one thing that i still haven't said:
just because Cassy didn't lose speed it doesn't mean that her fighting ability wasn't already destroyed BEFORE she reached Roxy.
For god sake, she lost one arm,one leg, one eye and her body was cut everywhere!!! Just because she didn't lose speed it doesn't mean that she was still in conditions to fight properly and react to Roxy's attack.

It's so obvious that it's incredible that people don't understand this,REALLY incredible.......they repeat "but she kept speed so that means that Roxy would heve been able to defeat Cassy's DE anyway!"....yeah,right, as if Cassy could perform properly her technique in those conditions when she reached Roxy......
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