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Old 2004-04-06, 18:19   Link #21
dee
dee
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by babbito2k

A couple of other points:

Technogirls has always taken a position similar to that of Live-eviL, and for a longer period of time. The idea is to fansub older works not likely to be licensed and make them accessible. They have made a name for themselves and several outstanding anime series by doing just this.
True, the Techno Girls always subbed niche titles for about a decade and LE follows this example. The only exception is the Techno Girls and other reputable subbers will never sub anything that's already has English subtitles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Instrumentality
As we have explained elsewhere, the only reason that we subtitled the final four episodes was that our local anime club was showing the Technogirls subs of this series. When they first started, it had been perhaps a year since the Technogirls had released the previous volume; at the time, there was little fear that the anime club's showings would get to the final volume before the Technogirls released it. However, as time went on and there was no word from the Technogirls, a backup plan was needed. Since we have often subtitled things for this club, we volunteered to subtitle the final four episodes if the club's showings got to that point before the Technogirls did. And, indeed, that is what happened.

As soon as people heard that we were subtitling the final four episodes, requests began pouring in. We certainly have nothing against the Technogirls; indeed, we regularly refer people to their site when people ask where to obtain copies of the rest of the series. However, we also feel that refusing to give out copies of these episodes would not be very fair to fans of the series (especially fans who have waited so long -- almost every request email that we get says something along the lines of "I had given up hope of ever seeing these," or "I have waited years to see the end of this series").

As for the claims of jumping into the middle of another group's series... the previous volume came out two years ago. At the time that we released this volume (last November), it seemed to many people that the Technogirls were no longer working on this series. (At the very least, there was no chance of the Technogirls' version being released in time for our anime club to show it without pulling it from their lineup for a while.) Even aside from that, we really don't understand why some people view this as some sort of competition. People have subtitled the same things that we have in the past; sometimes they have even used our scripts, or so we have been told. We are not competing with anyone. All we want to do is make the very best fansubs that we can, in order to share anime with people who would not otherwise be able to enjoy it (either due to the language barrier, or because they simply wouldn't know about a given series).
I sympathize with you, but you can understand the fans that followed the series, why they’d be upset. The Techno Girls as well as few others were aware of your version of BDB for qute a while, they just took a break. Fansubbing isn't a job, nor is it an obligation to release series at a certain time.

It is fact, in the past, fansubs groups have subtitled the same series, Artic, Hecto/Shinsen Gumi, etc,… Then again, subbing a series by a well-known fansub group is very difficult, especially, if the subber is a video expert and providing translations that rival the commercial ones. In addition to that, has a huge and sometimes radical fanbase, some are even more radical than Babbito 2K

Despite what some may believe, I, personally do not feel you had nefarious intentions at all. …but this is the tip of the iceberg, once the Techno Girls’ version is released, prepare yourself to be heavily criticized, compared and may be even ridiculed.

Anyhow, if you’re looking for another series, let me know.
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Old 2004-04-06, 19:23   Link #22
Instrumentality
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by dee
I sympathize with you, but you can understand the fans that followed the series, why they’d be upset.
Part of our issue with this is that, while we have heard of people getting upset over this, no one has ever actually brought it up with us (until, to some extent, this message thread). We hear second-hand rumors that there is a great sentiment against us, but those long-time fans who do contact us (including at least one apparent member of Barbara's own "Shoujo Anime Club" circle) always express happiness, not displeasure. Certainly, they still express hope of soon seeing the "official" Technogirls version; but we have honestly only received a single negative email on this topic in the past five months, and that was from a professed BDB-hater (who, in fact, was quite civil and polite in pointing out the things that he didn't like about our version).

I don't doubt that some people are upset about this; but it would be nice if some of the offended parties actually tried talking to us. We do take all comments and criticism quite seriously; but if we don't know that someone is unhappy, then there is little that we can do to remedy the situation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dee
The Techno Girls as well as few others were aware of your version of BDB for qute a while, they just took a break. Fansubbing isn't a job, nor is it an obligation to release series at a certain time.
We understand this. (Indeed, we are at times none-too-speedy with our own work.) As I said above, we only subbed these episodes because a club with whom we have close ties needed the final four episodes last year; otherwise, they would have had to stop showing the series four episodes before the end. Certainly the Technogirls are entitled to subtitle things at their own rate; I never meant to imply otherwise. However, the Technogirls have always made it pretty clear on their web site that their fansubs are only made for themselves and their private club, and any outside distribution is merely coincidental; we could not expect a release in the given timeframe, nor of course could we or anyone else presume to request that they work on it more quickly.

This was not done as a slight to the Technogirls. It was not done to "steal away" someone else's project; neither was it done because we thought that we could "do it better," nor for any other nefarious reason. It was done because the episodes were needed by friends of our organization, and there was no other source available.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dee
Despite what some may believe, I, personally do not feel you had nefarious intentions at all. …but this is the tip of the iceberg, once the Techno Girls’ version is released, prepare yourself to be heavily criticized, compared and may be even ridiculed.
If the criticism is well-founded, then we sincerely look forward to hearing it. Honest feedback is always appreciated and considered seriously. (On the other hand, some of the second- and third-hand grumblings that we heard started before we had even released our version -- one would at least think it courteous, if not strategically advantageous, to have actually watched the offending version before vilifying it....)
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Old 2004-04-06, 19:32   Link #23
Grifis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dee
In addition to that, has a huge and sometimes radical fanbase, some are even more radical than Babbito 2K

Despite what some may believe, I, personally do not feel you had nefarious intentions at all. …but this is the tip of the iceberg, once the Techno Girls’ version is released, prepare yourself to be heavily criticized, compared and may be even ridiculed.
Eh... I don't know about others but I wouldn't spend time dramatizing the situation or whine about it. I like Technogirls works a lot and was following their releases. The latest volume was out 2 years ago. Maybe it'll take another additional 2 years, or 3 years for the final who knows. I may not even care that the final volume will be released by that time. I barely remember that I was waiting for the final volume anymore up until now so under such uncertainty I really don't see the need to fuss over this. I think Technogirls are more than capable to criticize Instrumentality if need be for whatever reason that was. However I do agree that people can whine about anything and everything.

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Old 2004-04-06, 20:45   Link #24
Bullsquat
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by dee
I sympathize with you, but you can understand the fans that followed the series, why they’d be upset. The Techno Girls as well as few others were aware of your version of BDB for qute a while, they just took a break. Fansubbing isn't a job, nor is it an obligation to release series at a certain time.
With all due respect to techno girls, I don't find anything wrong with what Instrumentality is doing. It is clear that their only intention was to finish the series that is way past its due. Like grifis pointed out, its already been two years. People are quickly forgetting this series ever existed. It has nothing to do with popularity. I don't understand why the fans would get upset about this either. After two years of waiting shouldn't they be elated to be able to see the series to the end?

If instrumentality is looking to gain popularity, they would have meddled in a lot sooner than two years. I think after such a long period of time, people aren't wondering whether the fansubbers are taking a break anymore, they would be wondering whether the series will go on at all. Just like Techno girls, the guys at Instrumentality are just fans working for the fans.
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Old 2004-04-06, 21:49   Link #25
dee
dee
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Instrumentality

However, the Technogirls have always made it pretty clear on their web site that their fansubs are only made for themselves and their private club, and any outside distribution is merely coincidental;
Although SAC members do have first dibs, but closing their distribution in 97, Ken Hardwick always providing excellent quality TG tapes as an alternative.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullsquat
With all due respect to techno girls, I don't find anything wrong with what Instrumentality is doing. It is clear that their only intention was to finish the series that is way past its due. Like grifis pointed out, its already been two years. People are quickly forgetting this series ever existed. It has nothing to do with popularity. I don't understand why the fans would get upset about this either. After two years of waiting shouldn't they be elated to be able to see the series to the end?
See below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grifis
Eh... I don't know about others but I wouldn't spend time dramatizing the situation or whine about it. I like Technogirls works a lot and was following their releases. The latest volume was out 2 years ago. Maybe it'll take another additional 2 years, or 3 years for the final who knows. I may not even care that the final volume will be released by that time. I barely remember that I was waiting for the final volume anymore up until now so under such uncertainty I really don't see the need to fuss over this. I think Technogirls are more than capable to criticize Instrumentality if need be for whatever reason that was. However I do agree that people can whine about anything and everything.

Grifis


I guess this one is directed to Babbito 2K, who seems to take issue.

I don't think she/he was whining or being over dramatic. It's was just an opinion. Apparently, people do care otherwise they wouldn't be post here. I've read plenty of threads that extented 5 to 6 pages long in what I find to be ridiculous, I'll just overlooked it.

Edit: I'm not trying to speaking for her or others, but I don't think Ms. Barbara Chambers isn't the type of person that would complain, nor would other SAC members. Nevertheless, some fans as demonstrated, are and don't doubt will be in the future.

Last edited by dee; 2004-04-07 at 01:50.
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Old 2004-04-06, 22:05   Link #26
a7m4
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullsquat
It is clear that their only intention was to finish the series that is way past its due. Like grifis pointed out, its already been two years. People are quickly forgetting this series ever existed. It has nothing to do with popularity. I don't understand why the fans would get upset about this either. After two years of waiting shouldn't they be elated to be able to see the series to the end?
I wouldn't say that it is "way past due," Technogirls has always taken their time to provide high quality fansubs with excellent video, translation, timing, etc. I guarantee they they spend much more time on their fansubs then most of the digisub groups. Like someone already said, it is no ones job to do a fansub. They aren't getting paid. They are doing what they can in their free time for the fans.

Here is something taken from the Technogirls page:
Quote:
*
Here are some figures on what it takes to make a fansub for us.* This does NOT include any part of the translation, or networking time.


Initial research: 1 to 12 hours.
Editing and Timing, per 4 episodes.
******* Timing only; no script editing: 9 hours. ("BlueGreen Years" 100% Anna Exter version)
******* Timing with minimal editing: 18 hours ("Romeo's Blue Skies")
******* Timing with detailed editing and some screenplay rewriting: 26 to 30 hours ("Wedding Peach")
******* Timing with complete rescripting and "artistic" editing: 40 hours ("Brother, Dear Brother")
******* Timing with detailed scripting and initial setup, with lots of initial research: 65-90 hours ("Song/Zetsuai")
Title design including introductory sequences:
******* Minimal ("Romeo's Blue Skies" first 3 volumes) 1.5 hours.
******* Typical* ("The BlueGreen Years"):* 5 hours.
******* Elaborate ("Brother, Dear Brother"): 9 hours.
Mastering and final editing: 4 to 15 hours.


All together:
******* An easy tape: 27 hours ("Romeo's Blue Skies")
******* A typical tape: 45 hours ("BlueGreen Years")
******* A difficult tape: 75 hours ("Brother, Dear Brother")
******* A first tape of a series: 65-125 hours ("Wedding Peach" vol. 1)
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Old 2004-04-06, 22:45   Link #27
Bullsquat
Strange Love
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by a7m4
I wouldn't say that it is "way past due," Technogirls has always taken their time to provide high quality fansubs with excellent video, translation, timing, etc. I guarantee they they spend much more time on their fansubs then most of the digisub groups. Like someone already said, it is no ones job to do a fansub. They aren't getting paid. They are doing what they can in their free time for the fans.
Yes, and I agree that Techno girls r doing an awesome job with their projects. I have never had any problems with fansubbers taking their time because I know of all people that fansubbing is not a job that pays you, and it takes a lot out of your free time. Like I said, fansubbers are fans working for the fans. They deserve nothing but appreciations.

I just don't understand why people are dissing Instrumentality. Don't they also have to spend a lot of time on their projects to provide high quality fansubs? I can understand people's complaints if a one group is cutting off another group in the middle of their project. But this is a series that's been dormant for two years. They're just doing this as a favor to those who have been following the series for so long.

When the next release from Techno girls come out, I'm sure I'll have even more praise for them because of the amount of meticulous work they put into their project.
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Old 2004-04-07, 01:11   Link #28
lomeando
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As I understand it, the main gripe people have with Instrumentality is for "stealing" (lovely irony there) the Techno Girl's series. That's what lets them gripe before the actual release, since it has nothing to do with the quality of their work. Normally, I am a big proponent for groups working together instead of producing competing versions, as the more people available to get work done, the faster it goes. This makes a lot of sense in the digisub world.

However, it makes far less sense in the tapesub world, because suddenly location matters. Our digisub group has members in the US, the Netherlands, France, Canda, and other places, and the only real problem that ever imposes is one of time zones (e.g., nothing major). When you have to mail media around, buy compatible equipment, etc., etc., collaboration becomes much harder. So I personally, in contrast to my normal view, do not fault Instrumentality at all for not working with Barbara Chambers.

Though, I should note, we are also currently showing BDB at our local anime club, and are happy to know we can now finish the series. Had we approached the end without any release, I probably would've done the same thing Instrumentality did: sub it myself. No offense to Instrumentality (I haven't watched their version yet), we still hope a Techno Girls release will be done in time, but they've at least saved me personally many hours of work.
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Old 2004-04-07, 03:44   Link #29
a7m4
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullsquat
I just don't understand why people are dissing Instrumentality. Don't they also have to spend a lot of time on their projects to provide high quality fansubs? I can understand people's complaints if a one group is cutting off another group in the middle of their project. But this is a series that's been dormant for two years. They're just doing this as a favor to those who have been following the series for so long.
Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely no problem with Instrumentality subbing BDB for their club and even distributing it to people who want it. I was just saying despite taking sometimes two years for a tape, Technogirls really do put a lot of work into them and do an excellent job.
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Old 2004-04-07, 12:48   Link #30
Bullsquat
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Anyway, going back to the show itself. I was so lucky that my campus anime club actually have VHS tapes of Brother Dear Brother. Unfortunately, I wasn't allowed to borrow them. Maybe I need to talk to the right person or something.

Well, I saw episodes 1-4 at the club and all I can say is, why do those girls have to look like bishounens? And tall, older looking bishounens at that. Especially Kaoru no Kimi. Is she really suppose to be beautiful? She looks like Fabio, lol.

I haven't seen Maria-sama yet but the story seems pretty similar. In the early episodes of Brother Dear Brother, we have Nanako competing to enter a prestigious sorority. The story seems interesting and after 4 episodes, I wanted to see more. I just need to get copies of the tapes and watch them somewhere coz I don't have a VHS player. Nanako looks pretty and all but if only those other girls can look like girls, I would be much happier.

Incidentally, is it the same case with Maria-sama? Do they also have bishounen looking girls? God, I hope not.
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Old 2004-04-07, 13:47   Link #31
Grifis
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Caladan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullsquat
Anyway, going back to the show itself. I was so lucky that my campus anime club actually have VHS tapes of Brother Dear Brother. Unfortunately, I wasn't allowed to borrow them. Maybe I need to talk to the right person or something.

Well, I saw episodes 1-4 at the club and all I can say is, why do those girls have to look like bishounens? And tall, older looking bishounens at that. Especially Kaoru no Kimi. Is she really suppose to be beautiful? She looks like Fabio, lol.

I haven't seen Maria-sama yet but the story seems pretty similar. In the early episodes of Brother Dear Brother, we have Nanako competing to enter a prestigious sorority. The story seems interesting and after 4 episodes, I wanted to see more. I just need to get copies of the tapes and watch them somewhere coz I don't have a VHS player. Nanako looks pretty and all but if only those other girls can look like girls, I would be much happier.

Incidentally, is it the same case with Maria-sama? Do they also have bishounen looking girls? God, I hope not.
Spoiler:


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Old 2004-04-12, 11:00   Link #32
Rosa_Gigantea
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullsquat
Anyway, going back to the show itself. I was so lucky that my campus anime club actually have VHS tapes of Brother Dear Brother. Unfortunately, I wasn't allowed to borrow them. Maybe I need to talk to the right person or something.

Well, I saw episodes 1-4 at the club and all I can say is, why do those girls have to look like bishounens? And tall, older looking bishounens at that. Especially Kaoru no Kimi. Is she really suppose to be beautiful? She looks like Fabio, lol.

I haven't seen Maria-sama yet but the story seems pretty similar. In the early episodes of Brother Dear Brother, we have Nanako competing to enter a prestigious sorority. The story seems interesting and after 4 episodes, I wanted to see more. I just need to get copies of the tapes and watch them somewhere coz I don't have a VHS player. Nanako looks pretty and all but if only those other girls can look like girls, I would be much happier.

Incidentally, is it the same case with Maria-sama? Do they also have bishounen looking girls? God, I hope not.
Actually only Rei/St Juste and Kaoru look like bishounen ^^;
The rest of the female cast are girly girls. Mariko, Tomoko, Nanako, Fukiko and all the Sorority members look like girls.

Maria-sama cast is 99.9% female and they all Bishoujo that look like girls. Ok Rei looks a little bit more butch compared to the other girls; She looks like Haruka from Sailormoon and can pass for bishounen without any problems :P

for idea of what the girls look like :
http://www.jefflawson.net/anime/arch...ga_miteru.html
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Old 2004-04-12, 16:19   Link #33
Bullsquat
Strange Love
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
R u sure that
Spoiler:


I really hope Techno Girls will release the DVD versions soon. Just to get a hold of those damn tapes is so much hassle for me. I think I'm really addicted to this show. Even more than any of the spring releases.
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Old 2004-04-12, 16:45   Link #34
Grifis
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Spoiler:


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Old 2004-04-19, 21:43   Link #35
mmmmpocky
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Join Date: May 2003
I say they're all bi.

Anyways, thanks Instrumentality for doing what you've done for the Oniisama E fans. I also don't see the problem with finishing something that was left so long ago. Whether or not you collaborated with the TG's is also of no consequence. It's not like they *owned* the series.

Now our anime club may also finish the series. Cool.


ps: Did I meantion that we ALWAYS fast forward thru the copious notes as well as the OP and ending themes? Seriously. We get it! We get it!
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Old 2004-04-19, 22:07   Link #36
dee
dee
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmmpocky
I say they're all bi.

Anyways, thanks Instrumentality for doing what you've done for the Oniisama E fans. I also don't see the problem with finishing something that was left so long ago. Whether or not you collaborated with the TG's is also of no consequence. It's not like they *owned* the series.

Now our anime club may also finish the series. Cool.


ps: Did I meantion that we ALWAYS fast forward thru the copious notes as well as the OP and ending themes? Seriously. We get it! We get it!
Again, no one said that The Techno Girls owned the series. It's also been known for quite a while that the Techno Girls and others were aware of the digisubs. There's only a couple of fans that had expressed reservations. In reality, TG and others are not worried at all. Moreover, rehashing the same event is like beating a dead horse.

Last edited by dee; 2004-04-20 at 04:18.
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Old 2004-07-29, 18:12   Link #37
eneri
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Oniisama E

anyone here know where i can buy the vcd in North America or d/l the episodes?
if so, please let me know. thx
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Old 2004-07-29, 18:15   Link #38
babbito2k
annoying white bat
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
How about VHS or homebrew DVD? Here is the homepage of the fansubbers. Somewhere on there you will find links for tape distros.
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Old 2004-07-29, 18:36   Link #39
Imazul
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edited: see below

Last edited by Imazul; 2004-07-29 at 22:27.
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Old 2004-07-29, 20:24   Link #40
babbito2k
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Join Date: Jan 2004
The TechoGirls web page explains all about who they are, why should I have to boil it down for you.
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