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Old 2013-08-21, 00:36   Link #341
Random Wanderer
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Just to say this in advance (well, in advance of this post and any further posts) I tend to speak my mind rather bluntly. I don't actually intend to be offensive (most of the time ) but I've found that if I go out of my way to avoid giving offense I often fail to get my point across.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
If she is, why does she have all these odd powers, then? It just brings up a host of unanswerable questions.
Why does Miyu have all these odd powers, then? Why does Bazette have all these odd powers, then? Why does Zelretch have all these odd powers, then?

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I hardly see how my theory is 'illogical'. If you're going to brandish such terms, at least explain yourself.
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You realize you're contradicting yourself, right? You're ignoring "the simple, narratively-cohesive" explanation that Illya is a homunculus, and her parents fixed the aging issue, and going for some odd theory about Illya being a human.
Just to get this straight, you're saying she already looked like she normally does and was about 8 years old before the flashback, but sometime before they decided to actually break with the Einzbern plan to perform the Holy Grail War (because Illya's memory shows them making the actual decision to do so) they de-aged her to a baby and made her start aging normally. Is that about right?

Have you, by any chance, gone back and read that flashback, where Iris and Kiritsugu mention that Illya has only been alive for about 8 months at that point? And then remember that that point was explicitly stated to be the point when Kuro was sealed, which is also explicitly stated to have occured roughly ten years before the "present" in the timeline?
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Old 2013-08-21, 14:41   Link #342
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Occam's Razor. Don't assume things you don't have to just to reach a conclusion you want to reach when the simplest explanation is the most likely.

Especially consider that it's been stated that the Kaleid world shifted 200 years ago, not 10 like the various routes from Fate/Stay Night. That gives a lot of butterfly effects a chance to occur. And because it's based off of something, the characters we all know and love will still be here, but they won't be exactly the same as we know them.
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Old 2013-08-21, 16:12   Link #343
ReddyRedWolf
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The reason I'm saying the Illya is the core is because she isn't the Lesser Grail as the incomplete Holy Grail is sleeping at an underground cave at Mt. Enzou according to Caren. Chapter 23 page 18-19.

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Grail#Greater_Grail
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Up until the third Grail War, the vessel for the Grail, also called the Lesser Grail (小聖杯, shouseihai?), was a literal "cup". However, during the events of the third War, it was damaged in battle and the ceremony was interrupted; for that reason, it had to be made as something that could manage itself and take care of itself.
Iris said Illya was to be Key to the Ritual. Chapter 10 page 17. Illya isn't the grail vessel like FSN Illya she is meant to be the core like Justeaze.

Since the first Holy Grail War ritual happened in modern times there was no need for homunculus to be the grail vessel.

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Grail_War#History
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The Holy Grail War itself was devised by Justizia, and she was to become the key of the ritual. The Great Grail was created through forming a large circuit from many multi-layered Crests carved onto a bare rock over fifty meters in diameter. It was covered in multiple layers of circuits, while its many geometric figures turned in place. Justizia stood in the center of the it, and became the key to reenacting the Third Magic.
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Third_Magic#Effects
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Heaven's Feel is a magic that allows for the materialization of the soul (魂の物質化, ?), which stops the inevitable dispersion of the soul once it no longer has an anchor to the world, and essentially makes it transcend to a higher form of existence. It is a magic that realizes true immortality by making the soul into a high-dimensional planar being capable of interacting with the material world as a mental body without having to return to Akasha. The practitioner will acquire an unlimited source of magical energy due to the soul becoming analogous to a perpetual motion machine.[
This explains how Illya has vast amounts of prana without using Ruby. And how Kuro managed to split from her. But Kuro still needs prana so she wont be erased.


http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_...ture_and_power
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What is handed down in the city of Fuyuki isn't the one that received the blood of the Christ, but the prototype of an even more ancient "omnipotent container"; this container is the 726th Grail that sticks to the legend of the name. It is a gate that leads to the Root, Akasha; a hole connected to the nuclear core, the Greater Grail (大聖杯, daiseihai?), a wish machine - the key to startup the Great Grail. It is not an omnipotent container, but a replica created to work like a "wish machine" that can bring forth one's own will.
The Greater Grail is the wish machine. The difference between Illya and Miyu is this. Illya was meant to be the core of the Greater Grail in her world. Miyu is the Holy Grail or Lesser Grail.

Illya can grant herself wishes but it has to go through her other personality. The one who fought Saber then was Kuro side of her. Since Illya wishes for a normal life the only thing the Greater Grail can do is spit out Kuro, her mage half. Being the core Illya and Kuro is still connected to the Greater Grail.

Miyu can't make wishes for herself even if she is the complete Lesser Grail of her world. But somebody else can make a wish through her. As seen with her universe's Shirou wishing her a better life and have friends. What happened is that she only deposited herself to the location of the grail ritual in Illya's world.
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Old 2013-08-21, 17:13   Link #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Have you, by any chance, gone back and read that flashback, where Iris and Kiritsugu mention that Illya has only been alive for about 8 months at that point? And then remember that that point was explicitly stated to be the point when Kuro was sealed, which is also explicitly stated to have occured roughly ten years before the "present" in the timeline?
In which chapter was that flashback? I was looking for it the other day when I was arguing with somebody who claimed Illya is 19 and I couldn't find it.
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Old 2013-08-21, 17:17   Link #345
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
In which chapter was that flashback? I was looking for it the other day when I was arguing with somebody who claimed Illya is 19 and I couldn't find it.
Zwei Chapter 10. When Illya was still unconscious she got a peek to Kuro's memory right before she was sealed.

Kiritsugu and Iris are discussing about stopping the ritual. Illya was only 8 months old.
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Old 2013-08-21, 17:29   Link #346
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Thank you. For some reason I completely missed it.
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Old 2013-08-21, 17:37   Link #347
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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
In which chapter was that flashback? I was looking for it the other day when I was arguing with somebody who claimed Illya is 19 and I couldn't find it.
Kiritsugu says at the beginning of chapter 10 of 2wei that "a life of eight months cannot outweigh a thousand year old dream".

The "life of eight months" is clearly referring to Ilya's age.

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
The reason I'm saying the Illya is the core is because she isn't the Lesser Grail as the incomplete Holy Grail is sleeping at an underground cave at Mt. Enzou according to Caren. Chapter 23 page 18-19.

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Grail#Greater_Grail
Again... this does not prove your claim. The Holy Grail being "incomplete" can mean a number of things, like the seven Servants never being killed for the mana needed for the Grail to do its job as a wish granting machine and an opening to the Root.

You also never see a physical grail when Gil attempts to take it. All that was shown was a large magic circle, which can easily be what Caren was referring to when she spoke of the "incomplete Holy Grail".

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Iris said Illya was to be Key to the Ritual. Chapter 10 page 17. Illya isn't the grail vessel like FSN Illya she is meant to be the core like Justeaze.
You're going around in circles.

1) Being the "key" does not equate to the Greater Grail. All it implies is that Ilya is essential, which can be a number of things like the equally important Lesser Grail vessel.

2) If what you suggested was true and Justeaze did not become the core of the Greater Grail, then it is impossible for any wish granting to happen. In F/SN, Justeaze provided the magic circuits needed to complete the Greater Grail. She was the final parts to the Greater Grail's engine.

In your case where Justeaze's sacrifice for whatever reason and Ilya is supposed to be the core, granting wishes is still not possible until Ilya physically gives up her body to complete the Greater Grail, yet it still was.

The Greater Grail already has its core, and it's not Ilya.
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Since the first Holy Grail War ritual happened in modern times there was no need for homunculus to be the grail vessel.

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Grail_War#History
The first Holy Grail ritual involving Justeaze and Zouken happened in 1790, which is plainly stated in that link. How is over 200 years ago "modern times"?

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Third_Magic#Effects

This explains how Illya has vast amounts of prana without using Ruby.
What?

The Greater Grail does not have prana on its own. The reason why there needs to be a Lesser Grail vessel in the first place is because the Lesser Grail is the fuel tank that gathers the fuel needed for the Greater Grail to run its course.

It has never been required to be the Greater Grail itself to grant wishes, because the Grail responds to any worthy will that calls to it.


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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
The Greater Grail is the wish machine. The difference between Illya and Miyu is this. Illya was meant to be the core of the Greater Grail in her world. Miyu is the Holy Grail or Lesser Grail.
The Lesser Grail by definition is connected to the Greater Grail for reasons stated above.

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Illya can grant herself wishes but it has to go through her other personality. The one who fought Saber then was Kuro side of her. Since Illya wishes for a normal life the only thing the Greater Grail can do is spit out Kuro, her mage half. Being the core Illya and Kuro is still connected to the Greater Grail.
Her wish granting is circumstantial at best, and even then your claim is false. If Kuro's magecraft is necessary to facilitate Ilya's wish granting, then Kuro should have been able to grant her own wish to stay alive without needing Ilya.

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Miyu can't make wishes for herself even if she is the complete Lesser Grail of her world. But somebody else can make a wish through her. As seen with her universe's Shirou wishing her a better life and have friends. What happened is that she only deposited herself to the location of the grail ritual in Illya's world.
We don't know exactly what or how the wish exactly happened. It could have been Shirou's wish, or it could have been Miyu and Shirou's combined wish.

Either way, there is no evidence to suggest that Miyu can't do what Ilya can do, considering they both have large supplies of prana and are able to use a form of Third Magic to Install Servant cards. Miyu herself has not been shown to make any wishes, so there is nothing to prove that she can't. As far as prana and magic abilities ago, Miyu is very close if not equal to Ilya. The entire series/franchise emphasizes this fact and is also the very reason why Miyu sympathizes with Ilya so much. They are kindred spirits intended to be sacrificed for the Grail ritual they don't really care about.
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Old 2013-08-21, 19:09   Link #348
ReddyRedWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Again... this does not prove your claim. The Holy Grail being "incomplete" can mean a number of things, like the seven Servants never being killed for the mana needed for the Grail to do its job as a wish granting machine and an opening to the Root.

You also never see a physical grail when Gil attempts to take it. All that was shown was a large magic circle, which can easily be what Caren was referring to when she spoke of the "incomplete Holy Grail".
Cause it isn't that grail Gilgamesh is after it is Miyu. Why would he? Miyu is already complete and does not need to consume him.

In Miyu's world the Ainsworth's has been collecting Mystic Codes and Holy Grails finding them useless till they found Miyu.

For crying out loud you were the the one who claimed Illya is Homunculus when she isn't.

She's not an eighteen year old in a ten year old body. She's a ten year old girl.

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You're going around in circles.

1) Being the "key" does not equate to the Greater Grail. All it implies is that Ilya is essential, which can be a number of things like the equally important Lesser Grail vessel.

2) If what you suggested was true and Justeaze did not become the core of the Greater Grail, then it is impossible for any wish granting to happen. In F/SN, Justeaze provided the magic circuits needed to complete the Greater Grail. She was the final parts to the Greater Grail's engine.

In your case where Justeaze's sacrifice for whatever reason and Ilya is supposed to be the core, granting wishes is still not possible until Ilya physically gives up her body to complete the Greater Grail, yet it still was.
That is because Kiritsugu and Iris stopped that ritual before Illya is lost. They screwed up the Einzbern plan by sealing her.

Note this the first time in the Kaliedverse history there is a Holy Grail War. Illya is not the Grail vessel.

Caren said explicitly the Holy Grail is at Mt. Enzou.
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But that wasn't Gilgamesh was after. That was the place where the dimensional rift exist. Remember half of Gil is under the Ainsworth suppression control.

He just lured Miyu there to be picked up.



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The Greater Grail already has its core, and it's not Ilya.

The first Holy Grail ritual involving Justeaze and Zouken happened in 1790, which is plainly stated in that link. How is over 200 years ago "modern times"?
You are not paying attention by modern times I mean 10 years before.

Over 200 years ago the Einzbern's did not ask for Tousaka and Makiri's help. No Holy Grail War, No Heaven's Feel ritual.

But the implication of Kuro to Rin is that 10 years ago the Einzbern managed to acquire help from the Tousaka and Matou to start a Holy Grail War for the first time. The Fourth Grail War is the First Grail War with Servants. Kiritsugu and Iris nipped that in the bud.



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What?

The Greater Grail does not have prana on its own. The reason why there needs to be a Lesser Grail vessel in the first place is because the Lesser Grail is the fuel tank that gathers the fuel needed for the Greater Grail to run its course.

It has never been required to be the Greater Grail itself to grant wishes, because the Grail responds to any worthy will that calls to it.
You are not paying attention. Being the core of the Greater Grail Illya has access to Third Magic. The unlimited prana she has is an effect of Third Magic.

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The Lesser Grail by definition is connected to the Greater Grail for reasons stated above.
The Lesser Grail is asleep. Illya does not need a middle man which is the Lesser Grail's function.


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Her wish granting is circumstantial at best, and even then your claim is false. If Kuro's magecraft is necessary to facilitate Ilya's wish granting, then Kuro should have been able to grant her own wish to stay alive without needing Ilya.
Kuro did make her own wish to exist at Luvia's bath. But she does not have access to Illya's prana.

Kuro gaining Archer's body was part of Illya's wish to live and part of Illya wanting to be normal.



Quote:
We don't know exactly what or how the wish exactly happened. It could have been Shirou's wish, or it could have been Miyu and Shirou's combined wish.

Either way, there is no evidence to suggest that Miyu can't do what Ilya can do, considering they both have large supplies of prana and are able to use a form of Third Magic to Install Servant cards. Miyu herself has not been shown to make any wishes, so there is nothing to prove that she can't. As far as prana and magic abilities ago, Miyu is very close if not equal to Ilya. The entire series/franchise emphasizes this fact and is also the very reason why Miyu sympathizes with Ilya so much. They are kindred spirits intended to be sacrificed for the Grail ritual they don't really care about.
No at the end of Zwei and in Drei it is explicitly Shirou that made the wish.


I'm here giving references and proof and all you do is argue it is exactly like FSN/F Zero. Note different universe with different history.

Cite your proof and sources if want to continue this debate.
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Old 2013-08-21, 19:17   Link #349
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Not to interrupt this argument (at the moment I don't have a stake in the greater vs lesser grail discussion) but I do want to put in my two cents on just one comment that was made...

Quote:
Her wish granting is circumstantial at best, and even then your claim is false. If Kuro's magecraft is necessary to facilitate Ilya's wish granting, then Kuro should have been able to grant her own wish to stay alive without needing Ilya.
Kuro did survive, you may note. Despite Illya giving her prana, Kuro was still disappearing before she made her wish. Whatever happened, Kuro's wish most certainly did something, because it was clear at that point that no one else could save her. Maybe her body hasn't become completely self-sustaining, but stopping its collapse at all at that point should have been impossible.

Thinking about it, the grail's wish-granting power doesn't judge intent, correct? Kuro wished "I don't want to disappear! I just want to live!" The means by which that would be accomplished were not specified. The wish has been granted, to the letter. She did not disappear, and thanks to Illya supplying her with prana she can continue to live.
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Old 2013-08-21, 23:10   Link #350
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Cause it isn't that grail Gilgamesh is after it is Miyu. Why would he? Miyu is already complete and does not need to consume him.

In Miyu's world the Ainsworth's has been collecting Mystic Codes and Holy Grails finding them useless till they found Miyu.

For crying out loud you were the the one who claimed Illya is Homunculus when she isn't.

She's not an eighteen year old in a ten year old body. She's a ten year old girl.
I would appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. Nowhere did I state that Ilya was an eighteen year old in a ten year old body.

And it was stated in 3rei that the Ainsworths were collecting magic artifacts and Mystic Codes to recreate the Grail, though all of their attempts failed until they happened to stumble upon Miyu, who as Gil states in ch26 of 2wei is a "human [who] ended up with the functions of a Holy Grail".



Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
That is because Kiritsugu and Iris stopped that ritual before Illya is lost. They screwed up the Einzbern plan by sealing her.

Note this the first time in the Kaliedverse history there is a Holy Grail War. Illya is not the Grail vessel.
You are missing the point. In your case where Ilya is supposedly the core of the Greater Grail, it implies that she was intended to become the core similar to Justeaze but stopped before she could become the core. Justeaze provided the Greater Grail with the magic circuits needed for it to carry out its wish-granting facilities. If Ilya is meant to do the same, then that means the Greater Grail is currently missing the magic circuits needed to function without Ilya. I can agree with the Grail War 10 years ago being the first, but Ilya being the core brings about contradictions you still haven't addressed.



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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Caren said explicitly the Holy Grail is at Mt. Enzou.
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But that wasn't Gilgamesh was after. That was the place where the dimensional rift exist. Remember half of Gil is under the Ainsworth suppression control.

He just lured Miyu there to be picked up.
Gil's intention was to use the Grail to incarnate and free himself from the Card. If you read chapter 24 of 2wei, you'll see that he was clearly starting the ritual without Miyu until Ilya interfered and ended up pushing Gil out prematurely.

If Miyu was his only target from the beginning, he would have kidnapped her first, then fled.

It's made increasingly obvious Gil acted out of self-interest when 3rei comes around and he fights Angelica.






Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
You are not paying attention by modern times I mean 10 years before.

Over 200 years ago the Einzbern's did not ask for Tousaka and Makiri's help. No Holy Grail War, No Heaven's Feel ritual.

But the implication of Kuro to Rin is that 10 years ago the Einzbern managed to acquire help from the Tousaka and Matou to start a Holy Grail War for the first time. The Fourth Grail War is the First Grail War with Servants. Kiritsugu and Iris nipped that in the bud.

You are not paying attention. Being the core of the Greater Grail Illya has access to Third Magic. The unlimited prana she has is an effect of Third Magic.
The Lesser Grail is asleep. Illya does not need a middle man which is the Lesser Grail's function.[/QUOTE]

What you are suggesting has contradictions.

What you are suggesting means that Ilya/Kuro has full functions of the Greater Grail all on her own before her parents sealed her. If that was the case, then it defeats the purpose of needing Servants, an entire war, and general ritual in the first place. It makes no sense for there to be a Lesser Grail when there was never any need for a "middle man" under your proposal.

Second, in 2wei and by your own admission, the Grail is sleeping under Mount Enzo. Since you are so fixated on how Ilya was the "key" to the ritual, why did Caren say that the Grail was at Mount Enzo instead stating that the "key" was standing right in front of her?


The Greater Grail and Heaven's Feel ritual is a system composed of multiple parts. The original ritual this series is based on required large about of prana and land for the for Greater Grail to be summoned. The Tohsakas provided the land to inscribe the magic circle needed for the large-scale ritual. That circle was inscribed under Mount Enzo in F/SN, which is - surprise, surprise - the same location as in Prisma Ilya.

That magic circle inscribed into the land is what Caren was monitoring, not some physical grail cup or whatever you're suggesting it is.


Kuro did make her own wish to exist at Luvia's bath. But she does not have access to Illya's prana.

Kuro gaining Archer's body was part of Illya's wish to live and part of Illya wanting to be normal.[/QUOTE]

This is my mistake. I thought I recalled Ilya making the wish instead of Kuro for some reason.



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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
No at the end of Zwei and in Drei it is explicitly Shirou that made the wish.
Absurd.

Quote the lines where it states that parallel Shirou used the Grail's power alone. All Shirou says to Ilya is "so it came true" and "half of my wish came true".

People can infer what he wished for, but nowhere is it explicitly stated what Shirou's entire wish was or how exactly he came into contact with the Grail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
I'm here giving references and proof and all you do is argue it is exactly like FSN/F Zero. Note different universe with different history.

Cite your proof and sources if want to continue this debate.
I'm not the one who gave multiple type moon wiki links. There is a difference between no evidence and ignoring it, as convenient as it is for you.

Last edited by Shadow5YA; 2013-08-21 at 23:22.
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Old 2013-08-22, 00:24   Link #351
ReddyRedWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Absurd.

Quote the lines where it states that parallel Shirou used the Grail's power alone. All Shirou says to Ilya is "so it came true" and "half of my wish came true".

People can infer what he wished for, but nowhere is it explicitly stated what Shirou's entire wish was or how exactly he came into contact with the Grail.
Miyu-verse Shirou was the one who wished Miyu a better world. What are you talking about?

Zwei Chapter 27
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Quote:
I would appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. Nowhere did I state that Ilya was an eighteen year old in a ten year old body.
You said Illya is a Homunculus when she is not.

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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Ilya is already connected to the Greater Grail in a sense, being a homunculus created in the image of the person who makes up the Greater Grail's core.
Quote:
You are missing the point. In your case where Ilya is supposedly the core of the Greater Grail, it implies that she was intended to become the core similar to Justeaze but stopped before she could become the core. Justeaze provided the Greater Grail with the magic circuits needed for it to carry out its wish-granting facilities. If Ilya is meant to do the same, then that means the Greater Grail is currently missing the magic circuits needed to function without Ilya. I can agree with the Grail War 10 years ago being the first, but Ilya being the core brings about contradictions you still haven't addressed.
Here is the flaw in your thinking. Justeaze is not the core in this universe. There never was a Heaven's Feel ritual before the present day. This is not FSN.

Illya was adjusted to be the core of the Greater Grail but Iris sealed all that. The fact Illya and Kuro can grant wishes for themselves they are connected to the Greater while the Lesser Grail is inactive.

Danger to Illya's life broke the seal.

Quote:
Gil's intention was to use the Grail to incarnate and free himself from the Card. If you read chapter 24 of 2wei, you'll see that he was clearly starting the ritual without Miyu until Ilya interfered and ended up pushing Gil out prematurely.

If Miyu was his only target from the beginning, he would have kidnapped her first, then fled.
Except Gil himself said his other half driven by madness (Ainsworth suppression corruption) wants the grail that is Miyu.

Which is he asks Illya to beat him if she can or run. He doesn't like what the Ainsworth did to him.

Quote:
What you are suggesting has contradictions.

What you are suggesting means that Ilya/Kuro has full functions of the Greater Grail all on her own before her parents sealed her. If that was the case, then it defeats the purpose of needing Servants, an entire war, and general ritual in the first place. It makes no sense for there to be a Lesser Grail when there was never any need for a "middle man" under your proposal.

Second, in 2wei and by your own admission, the Grail is sleeping under Mount Enzo. Since you are so fixated on how Ilya was the "key" to the ritual, why did Caren say that the Grail was at Mount Enzo instead stating that the "key" was standing right in front of her?
The Greater Grail is connected to Akasha this is how Heroic Spirits are summons. Thus Servants are a per-requisite for a Grail War.

To grant a wish the Lesser Grail must be won in a regular Holy Grail War where all 7 Servants are absorbed.

A Master and a Servant can't ask the Greater Grail to grant a wish without winning.

Illya and Kuro does not have that hangup as they are part of the Greater Grail.

Last edited by ReddyRedWolf; 2013-08-22 at 00:40.
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Old 2013-08-22, 13:54   Link #352
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Miyu-verse Shirou was the one who wished Miyu a better world. What are you talking about?

Zwei Chapter 27
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Shirou said he hoped "the world" - Miyu's world - would become a better place, not run off to a better place. Their world is still in shambles and hasn't changed one bit since Miyu escaped. If that was Shirou's wish, then it didn't come true.

Even in 3rei, Shirou only said half his wish came true (the making friends part).

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
You said Illya is a Homunculus when she is not.
Ilya was very likely not human before Kuro was sealed. Being naturally born is beside the point - so was F/SN Ilya. What slowed her aging was the Einzbern's modifications before and after birth. Kuro explicitly states the same happened in Prisma Ilya in chapter 10 of 2wei.
It's just that the changes made to her body were reversed/suppressed when her parents sealed Kuro away.

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Here is the flaw in your thinking. Justeaze is not the core in this universe. There never was a Heaven's Feel ritual before the present day. This is not FSN.

Illya was adjusted to be the core of the Greater Grail but Iris sealed all that. The fact Illya and Kuro can grant wishes for themselves they are connected to the Greater while the Lesser Grail is inactive.

Danger to Illya's life broke the seal.
The point is not Justeaze!

The Greater Grail needs a set of magic circuits to function. In F/SN's world, Justeaze provided the circuits with the first Heaven's Feel. In Prisma Ilya, the Grail should not have the circuits needed to function if the ritual never happened.

If Ilya is meant to be the core but she never did, then that means the Greater Grail lacks the circuits to grant any wishes, period.



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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Except Gil himself said his other half driven by madness (Ainsworth suppression corruption) wants the grail that is Miyu.

Which is he asks Illya to beat him if she can or run. He doesn't like what the Ainsworth did to him.
I'm still waiting for you to explain how and why Gilgamesh activated the magic circle used for the Grail ritual before absorbing Miyu in chapter 24 of 2wei.

It was heavily implied that Gil was doing something to himself before Ilya and Miyu intervened, ending up with Gil half-incarnating as a child. The reasonable explanation would be that Gil tried to free himself from his Archer card and the Ainsworths, but took Miyu as a plan B when Ilya interrupted.



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The Greater Grail is connected to Akasha this is how Heroic Spirits are summons. Thus Servants are a per-requisite for a Grail War.

To grant a wish the Lesser Grail must be won in a regular Holy Grail War where all 7 Servants are absorbed.

A Master and a Servant can't ask the Greater Grail to grant a wish without winning.

Illya and Kuro does not have that hangup as they are part of the Greater Grail.
A wish does not need the prana of all seven Servants. That is only the case for opening access to the Root. For all other wishes, 5-6 Servants' worth is enough, as it was in Zero.

The Greater Grail does not have a will, Avenger aside. It is a system. The system is a large scale magecraft ritual that requires a large amount of magic circuitry and prana. The Lesser Grail is a system that captures the large amount of prana taken from the Servants, and the Greater Grail requires the mystic code inscribed into the land along with the high amount of magic circuits provided by whatever Einzbern who will become the core of the Grail.


The Grail does not necessarily need to happen the way Zouken designed it in F/SN by your own admission. The magic circle inscribed into land is still there in Prisma Ilya, while the prana needed can be provided by other sources like Zelretch's Kaleidosticks (Ruby stated she was familiar with Gil's ritual in chapter 24) or whatever the Ainsworths have which is clearly different from the traditional ritual the Einzberns were trying to start.

With Ruby being familiar with the Grail ritual, it's possible that Zelretch had alternatives in mind after Miyu brought Ainsworth style magecraft via the cards to Ilya's world appeared involving the sticks.
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Old 2013-08-22, 20:15   Link #353
ReddyRedWolf
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Shirou said he hoped "the world" - Miyu's world - would become a better place, not run off to a better place. Their world is still in shambles and hasn't changed one bit since Miyu escaped. If that was Shirou's wish, then it didn't come true.

Even in 3rei, Shirou only said half his wish came true (the making friends part).
If you have not noticed a grail only grants a wish to the letter but not in spirit of the wish.

Illya when endangered by Saber wishes her to be defeated. Illya has a card with her thus the best way is to assume the form of Archer. Illya wants to not be killed by Assassins. The came with what Ruby said jokingly of a massive firepower. She used that. Illya wanted to live a third time and half wants normalcy in her life. What came out is her sealed mage half.

Kuro wishes to live but she did not specify how. She isn't erased but she still needs somebody to provide her mana.

Shirou wishes for a better world for Miyu. The wish is made by the most practical way. Send Miyu to a parallel universe.

In FSN Kiritsugu wishes for peace. The corrupted grail tells him the best way is that everybody dies.


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Ilya was very likely not human before Kuro was sealed. Being naturally born is beside the point - so was F/SN Ilya. What slowed her aging was the Einzbern's modifications before and after birth. Kuro explicitly states the same happened in Prisma Ilya in chapter 10 of 2wei.
It's just that the changes made to her body were reversed/suppressed when her parents sealed Kuro away.
If Illya is not human then her mother is not human. Irisviel is still alive and kicking without illness.

That blows away your assertion Illya is a homunculus. That and Illya ages as a normal child.

Quote:
The point is not Justeaze!

The Greater Grail needs a set of magic circuits to function. In F/SN's world, Justeaze provided the circuits with the first Heaven's Feel. In Prisma Ilya, the Grail should not have the circuits needed to function if the ritual never happened.

If Ilya is meant to be the core but she never did, then that means the Greater Grail lacks the circuits to grant any wishes, period.
The ritual is incomplete not that it did not happen. The Einzbern already was doing a big ritual. Even Rin managed to dig rumors.

What she did not expect is that it was her hometown and her folks are involved.

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I'm still waiting for you to explain how and why Gilgamesh activated the magic circle used for the Grail ritual before absorbing Miyu in chapter 24 of 2wei.

It was heavily implied that Gil was doing something to himself before Ilya and Miyu intervened, ending up with Gil half-incarnating as a child. The reasonable explanation would be that Gil tried to free himself from his Archer card and the Ainsworths, but took Miyu as a plan B when Ilya interrupted.
It is not the Einzbern ritual. Caren even confirms it. It can't be started other than Irisviel.

The reason why Ruby found this ritual familiar is that Second Magic was happening for some reason.

What is on the world that time in the cave is not what the Einzbern made, it got transported to Miyu's world but it is the area from Miyu's Mt. Enzou.
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Old 2013-08-22, 20:39   Link #354
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
What is on the world that time in the cave is not what the Einzbern made, it got transported to Miyu's world but it is the area from Miyu's Mt. Enzou.
Your phrasing there is a little rough; I feel like I should try restating that.

From the point in time when Miyu arrived in Illya's world until the point when she was taken away again, the cave in Mt. Enzou was not actually the cave from Illya's world. They explained it near the end of Zwei: a spherical gap in space had formed, and the cavern from Miyu's world and some of the area surrounding it was actually sitting in the place of the cavern from Illya's world. It didn't displace that part of Illya's world, exactly, but it overlayed it, and as long as it was there it was physically impossible to enter the cavern that belonged to Illya's world. So the cavern that Gilgamesh broke into was not the cavern from Illya's world, but the cavern from Miyu's.
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Old 2013-08-23, 22:28   Link #355
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
If you have not noticed a grail only grants a wish to the letter but not in spirit of the wish.

Shirou wishes for a better world for Miyu. The wish is made by the most practical way. Send Miyu to a parallel universe.

In FSN Kiritsugu wishes for peace. The corrupted grail tells him the best way is that everybody dies.
Shirou explicitly says he wants the world to become a better place. If you are really taking this as what he wished the Grail and not just parting words for Miyu, then it's still different from all the examples you listed.

Kiritsugu still gets peace if no one else is left alive. Miyu's world has not improved one bit. Shirou even states that only half his wish came true.


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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
If Illya is not human then her mother is not human. Irisviel is still alive and kicking without illness.

That blows away your assertion Illya is a homunculus. That and Illya ages as a normal child.
Are you honestly telling me that a human can contain infinite mana, have complex reasoning and understanding of human language and magecraft at the age of eight months old?

I don't buy it. I can believe she was turned into a normal human with the magic that sealed Kuro away, but it's a big stretch to assume that she has been normal from the very beginning.

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
The ritual is incomplete not that it did not happen. The Einzbern already was doing a big ritual. Even Rin managed to dig rumors.

What she did not expect is that it was her hometown and her folks are involved.

It is not the Einzbern ritual. Caren even confirms it. It can't be started other than Irisviel.

The reason why Ruby found this ritual familiar is that Second Magic was happening for some reason.

What is on the world that time in the cave is not what the Einzbern made, it got transported to Miyu's world but it is the area from Miyu's Mt. Enzou.
Wrong. The Einzberns had their own ritual, and there is nothing to suggest that the design was any different. Caren confirms that the ritual Gilgamesh was starting was not the Einzbern's, and it wasn't. Three months ago the Tohsaka's/Einzbern's magic circle under Mt Enzou was switched with the Ainsworth's when Miyu first came over.

Before that (which inclues 10 years ago), it was 100% the Einzbern's ritual.
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Old 2013-08-23, 23:13   Link #356
ReddyRedWolf
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Shirou explicitly says he wants the world to become a better place. If you are really taking this as what he wished the Grail and not just parting words for Miyu, then it's still different from all the examples you listed.

Kiritsugu still gets peace if no one else is left alive. Miyu's world has not improved one bit. Shirou even states that only half his wish came true.
You are thinking the wish is about changing the world. It isn't. It is about Miyu's welfare.

Half of Shirou wish came true is because the Ainsworth caught Miyu and brought her back to hell.


Quote:
Are you honestly telling me that a human can contain infinite mana, have complex reasoning and understanding of human language and magecraft at the age of eight months old?

I don't buy it. I can believe she was turned into a normal human with the magic that sealed Kuro away, but it's a big stretch to assume that she has been normal from the very beginning.
A human can be modified. Sakura Matou is proof of that.

Quote:
Wrong. The Einzberns had their own ritual, and there is nothing to suggest that the design was any different. Caren confirms that the ritual Gilgamesh was starting was not the Einzbern's, and it wasn't. Three months ago the Tohsaka's/Einzbern's magic circle under Mt Enzou was switched with the Ainsworth's when Miyu first came over.

Before that (which inclues 10 years ago), it was 100% the Einzbern's ritual.
You're not contradicting what I said.
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Old 2013-08-24, 01:28   Link #357
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
You are thinking the wish is about changing the world. It isn't. It is about Miyu's welfare.

Half of Shirou wish came true is because the Ainsworth caught Miyu and brought her back to hell.
The wish is about both. Shirou wants to save the world (very much like him) and Miyu.

And you still haven't proven those words said to Miyu on that page was a direct request to the Grail and not just parting words he left her with before making his final stand against the Ainsworths so she can escape.

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
A human can be modified. Sakura Matou is proof of that.
Not very good proof, because Sakura (and Kariya before her) were quite imperfect and unstable compared to the Einzberns.

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
You're not contradicting what I said.
You appeared to be using the "different ritual" as evidence that Prisma Ilya's entire grail ritual was different, which is clearly false. The ritual was different was because it was switch with the Ainsworth's world, not because it was different from the beginning of its conception.
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Old 2013-08-24, 04:50   Link #358
ReddyRedWolf
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The wish is about both. Shirou wants to save the world (very much like him) and Miyu.

And you still haven't proven those words said to Miyu on that page was a direct request to the Grail and not just parting words he left her with before making his final stand against the Ainsworths so she can escape.
Parting words? My goodness you are ignoring the evidence. Miyu can't fulfill Shorou's wish as her destiny is to be the Holy Grail. People whether the Ainsworth or Gilgamesh will go after her. Even in a parallel universe.

Which is why Miyu said she is sorry to Shirou not fulfilling his wish.

It is the first time a Shirou will sacrifice his ideals just to save one person. It happens in one of the FSN routes.

Quote:
Not very good proof, because Sakura (and Kariya before her) were quite imperfect and unstable compared to the Einzberns.
Yet Sakura still became a grail vessel because Zouken stuck pieces of the grail from the Third Grail War in his worms, making her one.

Heck Gil made Shinji the grail vessel just sticking Illya's heart in him.


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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
You appeared to be using the "different ritual" as evidence that Prisma Ilya's entire grail ritual was different, which is clearly false. The ritual was different was because it was switch with the Ainsworth's world, not because it was different from the beginning of its conception.
You thinking this is the Fourth Grail War where the Grail vessel is homunculus.

The grail vessel was a cup from the first to third grail war. Kaliedverse first grail war is 10 years before.

The Einzbern did not make Illya the grail vessel. As Caren said in chapter 24 their version of the Holy Grail was sleeping in Mt. Enzou. But it wasn't there anymore because of Miyu.

It was not just the cave area of Mt. Enzou that switch places but the grails did so as well.

An Equivalent Exchange. Miyu switched places with the Einzbern grail.





On another note given what Tanaka drew and from what Kuro and Bazett heard that a meteor created the crater.

YouTube
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Someone tried to pull a Crimson Moon but somebody else pulled Zelretch magic ether canon. A magic circle cube.

Images
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Last edited by ReddyRedWolf; 2013-08-24 at 05:14.
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Old 2013-08-24, 14:21   Link #359
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Parting words? My goodness you are ignoring the evidence. Miyu can't fulfill Shorou's wish as her destiny is to be the Holy Grail. People whether the Ainsworth or Gilgamesh will go after her. Even in a parallel universe.

Which is why Miyu said she is sorry to Shirou not fulfilling his wish.

It is the first time a Shirou will sacrifice his ideals just to save one person. It happens in one of the FSN routes.
Evidence? So we are shown that Shirou physically came into contact with the Grail activated under Mt Enzou when he said those words?

You are extrapolating. You also fail to realize the contradiction that if Shirou said those words to Miyu as a wish, he should have been where the Grail was and transported to Ilya's world as well.

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Yet Sakura still became a grail vessel because Zouken stuck pieces of the grail from the Third Grail War in his worms, making her one.

Heck Gil made Shinji the grail vessel just sticking Illya's heartin him.
So by your own admission, they needed parts made by the Einzberns to make their own Grail vessels.


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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
You thinking this is the Fourth Grail War where the Grail vessel is homunculus.
What? Where did I say that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
The grail vessel was a cup from the first to third grail war. Kaliedverse first grail war is 10 years before.

The Einzbern did not make Illya the grail vessel. As Caren said in chapter 24 their version of the Holy Grail was sleeping in Mt. Enzou. But it wasn't there anymore because of Miyu.
It was not just the cave area of Mt. Enzou that switch places but the grails did so as well.

An Equivalent Exchange. Miyu switched places with the Einzbern grail.[/QUOTE]

The circle for the ritual was under Mt. Enzou! Good god, how many times do I have to say this? You see the thing when Gil activates it! It's not a physical grail.
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Old 2013-08-24, 16:14   Link #360
ReddyRedWolf
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Evidence? So we are shown that Shirou physically came into contact with the Grail activated under Mt Enzou when he said those words?

You are extrapolating. You also fail to realize the contradiction that if Shirou said those words to Miyu as a wish, he should have been where the Grail was and transported to Ilya's world as well.
Oh for crying out loud its in the Zwei manga why are you denying Shirou's wish to the grail who is Miyu didn't happen?

Miyu is the grail in his world. What transported in exchange was only the physical area and the respective grails. Not Shirou or the Ainsworth.

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So by your own admission, they needed parts made by the Einzberns to make their own Grail vessels.
Those parts are the Lesser Grail vessel pieces in FSN.

Illya isn't the Lesser Grail as 1. Caren stated the Einzbern Holy Grail is on Mt. Enzou. 2. Illya is born to be key to the ritual of the Holy Grail War according Irisviel.

The Key to the Ritual is becoming the core of Greater Grail as Justeaze sacrificed herself.
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Grail_War#History
Quote:
The Holy Grail War itself was devised by Justizia, and she was to become the key of the ritual. The Great Grail was created through forming a large circuit from many multi-layered Crests carved onto a bare rock over fifty meters in diameter. It was covered in multiple layers of circuits, while its many geometric figures turned in place. Justizia stood in the center of the it, and became the key to reenacting the Third Magic. The Holy Grail would have only been just a Holy Grail without her, as her will was required for Heavens Feel. Kishua Zelretch Schweinorg acted as a witness to the event.
Also the Kuro personality has been adjusted for generations and Illya was modified with it. Mage Inheritance as noted by Rin also counts for Illya's capacity.

Illya was to be placed in it but the ritual was stopped by Kiritsugu and Irisviel by sealing Illya's power. It was never completed but Illya was still connected to the Greater Grail. Thus having Third Magic.




Quote:
What? Where did I say that?
Illya is a homunculus you said I even quoted you on that. The Einzbern did not start using homunculus as grail vessels till its Fourth Grail War. Where in the Third Grail War the container of the Lesser Grail broke because it was corrupted.

The fact Illya grows up normally and does not have a limited lifespan goes against you assertion she is one.

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Grail#Container
Quote:

Up until the third Grail War, the vessel for the Grail, also called the Lesser Grail (小聖杯, shouseihai?), was a literal "cup". However, during the events of the third War, it was damaged in battle and the ceremony was interrupted; for that reason, it had to be made as something that could manage itself and take care of itself.[
Given these facts Illya's function was to be the same as Justeaze not a homunculus grail vessel that you assert.




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The circle for the ritual was under Mt. Enzou! Good god, how many times do I have to say this? You see the thing when Gil activates it! It's not a physical grail.
It is not the Einzbern's cave what part of that do you not understand?

What happened was an attempt of the Ainsworth to bring over Miyu by controlling the suppressed part of Gilgamesh.

The part that wasn't suppressed which Ilya brought out, shota Gil, can care less about obtaining Miyu.

One way or another he wants out of the Ainsworth control. That is why he merges with his black half to completely incarnate himself and he also asked Illya if she can to beat this version of himself.

The moment Gilgamesh was defeated the Ainsworth come out of the distortion this not a coincidence.

edit:

Based on this bio of a Fate/Apocrypha character doll making refers to the creation of golems.

Since Gil mocks Angelica not being human and calls her and Beatrice Dolls given the closest terminology it is likely they are golems.

Last edited by ReddyRedWolf; 2013-08-25 at 21:30.
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