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Old 2014-07-13, 14:24   Link #601
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukulelembo View Post
Source?
The manga, which has been stated and shown already. You're explicitly ignoring it for no reason. What's your source for denying it? What aspect are you even denying?

Is it that the memories were sealed 10 years ago, as stated by both Kuro and Irisviel?

Is it that she was 8 months old when they were sealed, as stated by Kiritsugu and demonstrated by Kuro's memory (seriously, she has infantile hands and is in a cradle)?

Quote:
Because it's the simplest explanation for Rin's personality. If they are alive, then there will be need for more explanations about Rin's character background and I highly doubt that we ever get that. Not mention that their complete absence in manga doesn't indicate much about them to be alive.
That's conjecture, not proof. Shirou's personality is pretty much the same, minus the magi bit, despite having a different upbringing. It's a meta decision that has no actual impact on the material at all, because these are the characters we know and love.

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WHERE?
It's been linked and stated multiple times already. You're ignoring it, so there's no point in relinking or restating it.

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I only proceed from the fact that Prismaverse is still part of Nasuverse and, unless is stated otherwise there are always some things that applies in all worlds of this universe. Such as the origins of the characters which I mentioned above.
Except it is stated that Illya's different from the normal universe. And really, you can't say "some things apply to all worlds" when it doesn't. It doesn't apply to Kara no Kyoukai. It doesn't apply to Fate/Apocrypha. It doesn't apply to Fate/Extra. Fate/Zero literally only applies to Fate/Stay Night, and possibly (though has no impact on) Tsukihime and Mahoutsukai no Yoru.

We know Shirou's backstory is different to some extent too, since there wasn't a cataclysm caused by the end of the 4th war. After all, that couldn't happen while Irisviel is still alive.

Either way, I'm done arguing this unless you actually bring counter proof to the table instead of just dismissing everyone else's claims when they present proof that doesn't agree with your world view.
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Old 2014-07-13, 16:11   Link #602
ukulelembo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
The manga, which has been stated and shown already.
Where?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
You're explicitly ignoring it for no reason. What's your source for denying it? What aspect are you even denying?
Because you still didn't show me anything that directly and precisely states what and when in prisma happened. All we have are only indirect hints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Is it that the memories were sealed 10 years ago, as stated by both Kuro and Irisviel?
By Kuro where, and Irisviel talked about keeping Illya's powers not memory seal. How do you know that Kuro's flashback wasn't just part of larger events which lasted for a longer period of time?

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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
That's conjecture, not proof.
Maybe, but that's best what we have. Until, there won't be at least one indication that Tokiomi and Aoi are really alive.

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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Shirou's personality is pretty much the same, minus the magi bit, despite having a different upbringing.
Shirou isn't exactly the same. Except that he doesn't know anything about magic it also seems that he is lack of his ambitions to become hero.

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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
It's a meta decision that has no actual impact on the material at all, because these are the characters we know and love.
This is exactly the logic with which I disagree. All changes always have some impact on setting and characters and if something is the same, is always stated or at least implied why.

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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Except it is stated that Illya's different from the normal universe.
Sure, but her origin is same or similar. Unless you don't want to say that Prisma Illya isn't Illya but an entirely different character like Rin in Extra.


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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
And really, you can't say "some things apply to all worlds" when it doesn't.
As long as we're talking about PARALLEL worlds, there are always "some things that you can apply to all worlds" because those are the basic pillars of that universe.

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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
It doesn't apply to Kara no Kyoukai. It doesn't apply to Fate/Apocrypha. It doesn't apply to Fate/Extra. Fate/Zero literally only applies to Fate/Stay Night, and possibly (though has no impact on) Tsukihime and Mahoutsukai no Yoru.
That's not true. Fate/Extra and Fate/Apocrypha have clearly stated diverge points from main timeline and the reasons for these differences. Kara no Kyoukai has Touko, Tsukihime has Arcueid. But this would be for deeper explanation.
The main thing is that the main aspects of Nasuverse don't change for no reason.

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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
when they present proof that doesn't agree with your world view.
What proof? I still have not seen a single from you.
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Old 2014-07-14, 01:06   Link #603
ReddyRedWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
I have never seen a person argue so hard when every fact in existence proves him wrong.
He just read the Fate wiki thinking he knows the story. When in fact he didn't read Fate Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya at all.

Now he is backed to a corner and wont admit he is wrong out of pride.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukulelembo View Post

Because you still didn't show me anything that directly and precisely states what and when in prisma happened. All we have are only indirect hints.
We presented out evidence where is yours? In discussion and debate it is given that to refute and rebut one cites evidence to prove his or her position.

All you have been doing is denying without providing proof. Which goes against forum guidelines.
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Old 2014-07-14, 02:45   Link #604
The Green One
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So anyway, not that all this arguing isn't completely riveting if I wasn't being sarcastic, which I am, chapters 20 and 21 have been translated and released for 3rei. We may be starting the climax here.
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Old 2014-07-14, 09:56   Link #605
ukulelembo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
He just read the Fate wiki thinking he knows the story.
Like Fate wiki was the only possible and trustworthy source.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
When in fact he didn't read Fate Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya at all.
Sure, you know much better what I read and what not.

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Now he is backed to a corner and wont admit he is wrong out of pride.

We presented out evidence...
You're not presented single irrefutable proof. All your "proofs" are just indirect hints that you immediately consider to be related each other without a any reason. Not mention that some are just work of poor translation (Rin being half-japanese) and some completely invented (Illya and Irisviel not being homunculi, Rin's parents being alive).
How for example do you know that all hints about Illya's past happened simultaneously?

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
...where is yours?
In discussion and debate it is given that to refute and rebut one cites evidence to prove his or her position.
Point is that this story is part of Nasuverse and there is still some inner logic. No change is without reason (unless you change something directly in Root, but that then somehow affects all worlds). And the same character can't have a completely different origin just at most heavily modified. And unless you want deny Prismaverse as a fully fledged part of Nasuverse you can't ignore how Nasuverse works. All Fate spin-offs usually have some diverge point from main timeline caused by either influence from another world or some change in Root. Until now, we don't know what exactly is diverge point for Prismaverse. But we know that there is a lot of familiar characters, which means that diverge point in Prisma can't be something so big as in Extra or Apocrypha. But still significant enough to change character development into what we see at beginning of story.
So far, what we definitely know is that Illya lived a normal life and Kiritsugu and Irisviel are alive, which means that diverge point must occurred sometime before fourth grail war, but after third grail war, because most of our characters exists (without the Third War characters like Rin, Luvia, Sakura and probably even Irisviel would most likely didn't exist). Furthermore, there is Waver as El-Melloi II which means that either fourth grail war somehow partially occurred or there were some different events with similar results for him. Next Rin and Luvia knows nothing about Einzbern and the last mention of them which Rin found is from 10 years ago. Currently hard to say exactly what happened 10 years ago, but I'll bet that someone erased all record about Einzbern's existence for some reason. Anyway, from here it's really just speculations. Maybe I can be wrong in some things, because the events from ten years ago are still too ambiguous, but definitely there won't be such drastic changes like complete non existence of Fuyuki's Grail Wars or non-homunculi Illya and Irisviel, because in context of characters and Nasuverse it doesn't make sense. Of course, if you want to say that Prismaverse is completely outside Nasuverse then this all loses meaning, because we don't argue what is true in Prisma, but whether is Prismaverse fully fledged part of Nasuverse or not. And I'm not really in the mood for another Canon x Non-canon flame war.

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Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
All you have been doing is denying without providing proof. Which goes against forum guidelines.
Yeah, give me ban. That will solve everything and make your claims true.
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Old 2014-07-14, 10:44   Link #606
ReddyRedWolf
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Nasu didn't write write Fate Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya. Its a spin-off written by another guy. So being a know it all using Fate Stay is useless. As Fate is a franchise with many spin-off novels, games and parodies.

If you have not noticed its an alternate universe where events are different.

Essentially its an official doujin manga.

That said put up or shut up. If you won't provide evidence to prove your assertions you've already lost the debate.
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Old 2014-07-14, 11:27   Link #607
ukulelembo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
Nasu didn't write write Fate Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya. .... Essentially its an official doujin manga.
Confirmed Canon x Non-canon flame. Oh god why? Why this sh*t again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf View Post
That said put up or shut up. If you won't provide evidence to prove your assertions you've already lost the debate.
I'd rather shut up, because I had this kind of discussion several times (even here) because always appeared some new nescient guy that started discussion again from the beginning. Result was always the same: "Everything from official works is canon" even Prisma. I won't still repeat the same thing like many times before. Either try find an old discussion or think whatever you want. I have already sick of this Canon x Non-canon debate.
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Old 2014-07-17, 09:06   Link #608
Eisdrache
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Could you guys take this to PM? It's getting very annoying by both sides.
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Old 2014-07-25, 13:04   Link #609
Dark Wing
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Anyway getting back on topic.

The manga's story has been progressing fairly quickly seeing how we're nearing what seems to be the final confrontation with the fate of both Miyu and The World hanging in the balance.

At this point one has to wonder is the mangaka putting the plot on fast-forward to get this arc done before season two of the anime ends?
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Old 2014-07-25, 13:07   Link #610
GDB
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Not sure why he'd need to. It'd be another year, minimum, before 3rei would be animated. And that's assuming the absolute quickest possible turn around. That's more than 50% longer than 3rei as a whole so far.
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Old 2014-07-25, 13:57   Link #611
Dark Wing
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Not sure why he'd need to. It'd be another year, minimum, before 3rei would be animated. And that's assuming the absolute quickest possible turn around. That's more than 50% longer than 3rei as a whole so far.
Well we didn't even know there would be a season two until the very end of season one so I reasoned he may have gotten a heads up that if material is ready another season would be promised.

Of course this is just a guess I could be absolutely wrong...
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Old 2014-07-25, 14:03   Link #612
GDB
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Possible, but it's likely 2wei is split cour anyway, so he wouldn't have to worry about that until March (assuming it goes Prisma/Stay Night/Prisma/Stay Night). Even then, with 3rei being about as long as 2wei, if not longer, he'd only need enough material for a first cour and be able to guarantee enough for its split cour by the time that'd be ready.
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Old 2014-07-25, 14:23   Link #613
Dark Wing
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A split cour would make a lot more sense. They could end season two with that massive cliffhanger and then have enough material ready for third season.
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Old 2014-07-25, 21:59   Link #614
GDB
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Chapter 22 is out. Kotomine raising boss flags, more information on the enemy is revealed, and... I really hope that wasn't a death flag for Kuro. Please don't kill Kuro.
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Old 2014-07-25, 22:12   Link #615
The Green One
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Kuro's death would be a tragedy indeed, but this final boss character definitely has an axe hovering over her neck with this ability, the slightest touch and it's over...... Or perhaps this will become an opportunity for Kuro to lose her dependency on the card......

Though Darius and Erika's interactions now have a new level of squick involved......
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Old 2014-07-25, 23:45   Link #616
Myssa Rei
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WHAT A TWEEST.

Wow, these two chapters. Wow.

Spoiler for FFFFFFFFFFFFF:
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Old 2014-07-26, 01:46   Link #617
ReddyRedWolf
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"Nooo...I've learned something I didn't want to learn about our enemies again!"- Illya

LOL
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Old 2014-07-26, 05:05   Link #618
Kanon
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That page with Kotomine was such a tease.

People have been speculating Darius was Julian, so I wasn't all that surprised by this revelation, but it's still pretty funny.
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Old 2014-07-26, 09:25   Link #619
Shadow5YA
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Who needs to get yourself involved in complicated magecraft and politics when you've already found your calling as a simple mapo tofu chef?

With Darius revealed to be dead, I really think Julian's aim is to revive Darius as a Heroic Spirit by making him infamous.
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Old 2014-07-27, 05:39   Link #620
novalysis
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Death Flags are now toiling for Kuro. Card Destruction - ouch.

I suspect what's going to happen, is that Julian breaks the Archer Card in Kuro - but doing so restores Illya's full power, which results in Illya cleaning up.

And then, Tanaka would execute her purpose. I wonder - is Tanaka a Counter Guardian, sent by Gaia to eliminate Julian?
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