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Old 2013-05-28, 08:50   Link #2981
ImperialFlameGod8190
The Supreme General
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamadooddood View Post
That's some... speculation. :O

But what about Shidou's biological parents? I'm sure them abandoning him had something to do with Spirits as well. And he would never have met Kotori.

Now, if you had pushed things to before Shidou would have been abandoned, then it'd be because Kurumi was separated from Shidou indirectly because of Spirits, and he was in depression for several years indirectly because of Spirits, then it makes more sense.

But even so, would she still want to eat her childhood love? As in om nom nom nom nom.

Damn this butterfly effect. Makes things so complicated.



I'm still assuming that first Spirit = first one to represent Keter on the Tree of Life. Then the power will be eventually transferred to Origami, somehow.
well she thinks by eating him he can become one with her and what girl doesn't wanna become one with their childhood love hell we've got a whole genre of DJ's related to that
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Old 2013-05-28, 16:45   Link #2982
Dominic Night
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Hearing about the speculation about Kurumi is one thing. On one of Shinji's post;

Quote:
What Kurumi said was "30 years ago, the first spirit that appeared in this world to. The first spirit that came before the rest - I'm going to kill it with my own hands." "I'll erase the fact that spirits appeared in this world. I'm going to make it so that the spirits never appeared in this world. I'll make it so that every spirit in this world never existed."
So that was an oversight of my own when I made my previous post, but she says nothing about the spacequakes. And from her statements, paired with Phantom saying "You're surprisingly kind," makes it sound like she's trying to spare the spirits the suffering of being attacked by the people of our world. Or it could be something else that hasn't been revealed yet.
It doesn't actually sound that Kurumi is 'kind'. Compared to that she does want to prevent spacequakes, which will save millions of HUMAN lives. Though it sounds more of that she won't care about the Spirits being erased from existence. (Tohka, Yoshino, and whoever else.). She herself was human to start so this won't be a problem. In one part she could be seen on the same level as the AST in 'no peace, no understanding, must kill all spirits.' but with less destruction. More-or-less she could be seen as killing the mother(First-spirit) before they could give birth(Other spirits).

Her motivates could also be seen as selfish with her dislike that she's a Spirit, she isn't kind as people would think it would just be convinent for her.

And don't forget the time paradox she's going to create. (She goes back in time and kills the first-spirit, which mean she doesn't gain her powers -> She doesn't go back in time to kill the spirit -> First Spirit isn't dead therefore the incidents happen -> She gains the powers and uses it to go back in time and kills the spirit -> which repeats the pattern.)

And all in all, those people she killed will be killed in-vain (Continously or if Shidou manages to convince her to stop her plans). Along with her shortening many other lifespans.
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Old 2013-05-28, 16:51   Link #2983
XFire
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Why exactly does everyone think the spirits are going to be "erased"? They existed in a separate world before they were dragged here, so if Kurumi prevents whatever is pulling them here from doing so, they'll just exist there instead.
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Old 2013-05-28, 17:25   Link #2984
RapidPotential
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XFire View Post
Why exactly does everyone think the spirits are going to be "erased"? They existed in a separate world before they were dragged here, so if Kurumi prevents whatever is pulling them here from doing so, they'll just exist there instead.
The only Spirits who would technically be "erased" are the ones who were formerly human, and even then they would still exist, albeit leading much different lives.
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Old 2013-05-28, 18:38   Link #2985
iamadooddood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImperialFlameGod8190 View Post
well she thinks by eating him he can become one with her and what girl doesn't wanna become one with their childhood love hell we've got a whole genre of DJ's related to that
You just want to make her a yandere do you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Night View Post
It doesn't actually sound that Kurumi is 'kind'. Compared to that she does want to prevent spacequakes, which will save millions of HUMAN lives. Though it sounds more of that she won't care about the Spirits being erased from existence. (Tohka, Yoshino, and whoever else.). She herself was human to start so this won't be a problem. In one part she could be seen on the same level as the AST in 'no peace, no understanding, must kill all spirits.' but with less destruction. More-or-less she could be seen as killing the mother(First-spirit) before they could give birth(Other spirits).

Her motivates could also be seen as selfish with her dislike that she's a Spirit, she isn't kind as people would think it would just be convinent for her.

And don't forget the time paradox she's going to create. (She goes back in time and kills the first-spirit, which mean she doesn't gain her powers -> She doesn't go back in time to kill the spirit -> First Spirit isn't dead therefore the incidents happen -> She gains the powers and uses it to go back in time and kills the spirit -> which repeats the pattern.)

And all in all, those people she killed will be killed in-vain (Continously or if Shidou manages to convince her to stop her plans). Along with her shortening many other lifespans.
Lol, now treating as if she were human initially?

Nope, I didn't forget the time paradox that she'd create. The grandfather paradox, was it not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by XFire View Post
Why exactly does everyone think the spirits are going to be "erased"? They existed in a separate world before they were dragged here, so if Kurumi prevents whatever is pulling them here from doing so, they'll just exist there instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RapidPotential View Post
The only Spirits who would technically be "erased" are the ones who were formerly human, and even then they would still exist, albeit leading much different lives.
That'd depend on how the other dimension works I think. Or Kurumi could retcon all the Spirits to live normal lives with him, powerless. (Don't forget that Miku would've committed suicide if she didn't turn into a Spirit, now.) Now that Shidou's changed her I don't think she'll kill people as easily.
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Old 2013-05-28, 19:19   Link #2986
ImperialFlameGod8190
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Originally Posted by iamadooddood View Post
You just want to make her a yandere do you...
what makes u think she's not a yandere already
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Old 2013-05-28, 20:12   Link #2987
iamadooddood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImperialFlameGod8190 View Post
what makes u think she's not a yandere already
Yangire would be far more accurate. Heck, even Tsundere is more accurate. No, really.

Unless she really is his childhood friend, then I'll give you that.
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Old 2013-05-28, 20:56   Link #2988
ImperialFlameGod8190
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Originally Posted by iamadooddood View Post
Yangire would be far more accurate. Heck, even Tsundere is more accurate. No, really.

Unless she really is his childhood friend, then I'll give you that.
She may very well be a tsundere here is the proof.
1. She only killed the guys in the last episode because she saw them picking on a puppy
2. When shidou said he wanted to save her she threatened to kill everybody.
3 .Multiple times tried to convince shidou she was evil and a bad thing.
4. When shidou was about to kill himself she thought he was bluffing and not only saved him asked if he was out of his mind.
5. Stopped the thing that basically gave her strength plus a spacequake after being convinced to do so by shidou
6. Was going to take his hand and stop everything before another kurumi killed her.
And two other things tell you she aint evil.
1. She could've eaten shidou at least 3 times in that episode but didn't.
2. If she was this powerful how come she let mana continue to kill her.

Maybe its just me or like everyone else i'm stunned at how hot she was in the black underwear but she mite be the most confusing female character in anime history.
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Old 2013-05-28, 21:01   Link #2989
Algester
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImperialFlameGod8190 View Post
She may very well be a tsundere here is the proof.
1. She only killed the guys in the last episode because she saw them picking on a puppy
2. When shidou said he wanted to save her she threatened to kill everybody.
3 .Multiple times tried to convince shidou she was evil and a bad thing.
4. When shidou was about to kill himself she thought he was bluffing and not only saved him asked if he was out of his mind.
5. Stopped the thing that basically gave her strength plus a spacequake after being convinced to do so by shidou
6. Was going to take his hand and stop everything before another kurumi killed her.
And two other things tell you she aint evil.
1. She could've eaten shidou at least 3 times in that episode but didn't.
2. If she was this powerful how come she let mana continue to kill her.

Maybe its just me or like everyone else i'm stunned at how hot she was in the black underwear but she mite be the most confusing female character in anime history.
she was letting Mana kill her or her timeline clones as a way to "break" Mana
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Old 2013-05-28, 21:27   Link #2990
Marly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImperialFlameGod8190 View Post
She may very well be a tsundere here is the proof.
1. She only killed the guys in the last episode because she saw them picking on a puppy
2. When shidou said he wanted to save her she threatened to kill everybody.
3 .Multiple times tried to convince shidou she was evil and a bad thing.
4. When shidou was about to kill himself she thought he was bluffing and not only saved him asked if he was out of his mind.
5. Stopped the thing that basically gave her strength plus a spacequake after being convinced to do so by shidou
6. Was going to take his hand and stop everything before another kurumi killed her.
And two other things tell you she aint evil.
1. She could've eaten shidou at least 3 times in that episode but didn't.
2. If she was this powerful how come she let mana continue to kill her.

Maybe its just me or like everyone else i'm stunned at how hot she was in the black underwear but she mite be the most confusing female character in anime history.
Wow, none of your points are viable in any shape/form. Congrats.

1. And she also killed 10,000 other people with her own hands along with random civilians by causing intentional spacequakes. Truly an angel.
2. She wanted him to feel terrified.
3. Because she pretty much is.
4. She needs him alive to absorb his powers.
5. I guess being convinced to do something makes you a tsundere now. Guess every anime character is a tsundere by your definition.
6. Yeah, killed by the original.

1. And she was about to before Mana came in. Before that, she was pretty much fucking around, and even explicitly says she wanted to experience what school life was like before attempting to wipe it out. As for the roof scene, she was having fun messing around before Shidou's half-assed attempt to 'save' her.
2. She was having fun.

I think at this point you're just trying too hard to make this character something that she isn't.
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Old 2013-05-28, 22:28   Link #2991
ImperialFlameGod8190
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Marly i'm not trying to make her something she's not my thing is she's done all this bad stuff like u said but she's still had a few moments of weakness which I pointed out. She aint an angel but she's also not all bad
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Old 2013-05-28, 23:40   Link #2992
iamadooddood
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@Marly: I agree with all your points except for this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marly View Post
6. Yeah, killed by the original.
Now, why would the original want to kill that particular clone of hers? Because she didn't want to be seen as too weak.
Quote:
“That was humiliating. ——However, The•me•of•this•time,could possibly be too naive.”
If this doesn't prove anything, why would that clone of hers end up warming up to him in the first place (the dere part), such that the original would want to kill her (the tsun part)?

Also, the time with Phantom in the epilogue of volume 4. Again, she doesn't want to be seen as too kind.

Last edited by iamadooddood; 2013-05-28 at 23:54.
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Old 2013-05-29, 00:19   Link #2993
Marly
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Originally Posted by ImperialFlameGod8190 View Post
Marly i'm not trying to make her something she's not my thing is she's done all this bad stuff like u said but she's still had a few moments of weakness which I pointed out. She aint an angel but she's also not all bad
Yes, she's obviously not completely evil, but she is most certainly not what you would classify as a "tsundere" or a "yandere." I really think you're stretching it by that point, to be honest. There's really no problem with a character not belonging to yet another archetypical cliche, so I don't see why people constantly try to characterize this character as something that she isn't by stretching things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamadooddood View Post
Now, why would the original want to kill that particular clone of hers? Because she didn't want to be seen as too weak. If this doesn't prove anything, why would that clone of hers end up warming up to him in the first place (the dere part), such that the original would want to kill her (the tsun part)?
I thought the original killed off the clone because she was not sticking to the plan that the original had in mind by spilling her spaghetti over Shidou's expression of kindness, not necessarily because she didn't want to be seen as weak- You have to keep in mind that Kurumi's present self that killed her clone (physical manifestation of her personality from an unknown time past, possibly a decade, even) isn't weak, so she has no reason to 'hide' her weakness by killing something that no longer is her present personality anyways.

I also don't see how this works as a "tsundere" character archetype if a character was "dere" some time in the past and was "tsun" in the present, though I don't think "tsun" even actually characterizes Kurumi in the first place.
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Old 2013-05-29, 00:19   Link #2994
RapidPotential
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamadooddood View Post
Now, why would the original want to kill that particular clone of hers? Because she didn't want to be seen as too weak.
I agree with this part. The reason why she even killed that clone was because of that moment of weakness that nearly convinced her that she could be saved by Shidou.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamadooddood View Post
If this doesn't prove anything, why would that clone of hers end up warming up to him in the first place (the dere part), such that the original would want to kill her (the tsun part)? Also, the time with Phantom in the epilogue of volume 4. Again, she doesn't want to be seen as too kind.
I half-agree with this point, except I feel it's partly something else - perhaps it's that she's been taking the extreme actions to get at her goal at all costs (and for most part, nonchalant about taking lives). Thinking positively about her goal might cause her resolve to waver, which ties in to the previous point made about her killing her clone exactly for that reason.
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Old 2013-05-29, 00:55   Link #2995
Marly
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Right, so I have a question, for once.

When we're talking about the "First Spirit," does it mean that it was the first spirit that ever existed, or the first spirit that appeared in the world? (and hence causing other spirits (whether they're actually older than the "First Spirit" or not) from that dimension to flow into the world)
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Old 2013-05-29, 02:29   Link #2996
RapidPotential
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I actually interpret that as the first spirit who appeared in the world. However, it is possible said "First Spirit" is supposedly the top of the hierarchy of the Tree of Life (given the Hebrew origins of the Spirits' Angels). We have zero hints as to the actual number of the "First Spirit" so it's quite open to debate at this point.
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Old 2013-05-29, 02:36   Link #2997
whitecloud
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An, so the first spirit is metatron? Isn't? But anyway how is the first spirit come into earth anyway, just come ? Or there is a catalyst? Basically someone call it?

By the way, is translator MIA?
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Old 2013-05-29, 03:10   Link #2998
cloud04
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An, so the first spirit is metatron? Isn't? But anyway how is the first spirit come into earth anyway, just come ? Or there is a catalyst? Basically someone call it?

By the way, is translator MIA?
if your talking about vol 4, RL got in the way ;p
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Old 2013-05-29, 04:15   Link #2999
Shinji103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Night View Post
It doesn't actually sound that Kurumi is 'kind'. Compared to that she does want to prevent spacequakes, which will save millions of HUMAN lives. Though it sounds more of that she won't care about the Spirits being erased from existence. (Tohka, Yoshino, and whoever else.). She herself was human to start so this won't be a problem. In one part she could be seen on the same level as the AST in 'no peace, no understanding, must kill all spirits.' but with less destruction. More-or-less she could be seen as killing the mother(First-spirit) before they could give birth(Other spirits).

Her motivates could also be seen as selfish with her dislike that she's a Spirit, she isn't kind as people would think it would just be convinent for her.
I doubt she cares about the spacequakes and the people killed by them, considering she tried to use one to murder thousands of people as a terror tactic on Shidou.
To elaborate on my point, her kindness is the "twisted" kind; by making it so that spirits never existed in this world, she's thereby sparing them of the pain they would endure if they existed. This is what I think Phantom meant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by XFire View Post
Why exactly does everyone think the spirits are going to be "erased"? They existed in a separate world before they were dragged here, so if Kurumi prevents whatever is pulling them here from doing so, they'll just exist there instead.
Because that's what Kurumi is trying to do. In her words, by killing the first spirit, every spirit that came after it will cease to exist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marly View Post
Right, so I have a question, for once.

When we're talking about the "First Spirit," does it mean that it was the first spirit that ever existed, or the first spirit that appeared in the world? (and hence causing other spirits (whether they're actually older than the "First Spirit" or not) from that dimension to flow into the world)
The way Kurumi worded it, the first spirit she's referring to, and the one she wants to kill, is the one that first appeared in our world.
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Old 2013-05-29, 07:08   Link #3000
Naoe Yamato
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correct me if I'm wrong, but so far we know
Spoiler for number of each spirits:
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