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Old 2013-05-29, 08:46   Link #3001
XFire
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
I doubt she cares about the spacequakes and the people killed by them, considering she tried to use one to murder thousands of people as a terror tactic on Shidou.
To elaborate on my point, her kindness is the "twisted" kind; by making it so that spirits never existed in this world, she's thereby sparing them of the pain they would endure if they existed. This is what I think Phantom meant.


Because that's what Kurumi is trying to do. In her words, by killing the first spirit, every spirit that came after it will cease to exist.


The way Kurumi worded it, the first spirit she's referring to, and the one she wants to kill, is the one that first appeared in our world.
No, she's trying to save the other spirits by killing the one who made it possible for them to come to this world. Tohka and the other "natural" spirits would still be alive, though they wouldn't know anything about Shidou or this world, and the artificial spirits would still be human.
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Old 2013-05-29, 09:04   Link #3002
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
No, she's trying to save the other spirits by killing the one who made it possible for them to come to this world. Tohka and the other "natural" spirits would still be alive, though they wouldn't know anything about Shidou or this world, and the artificial spirits would still be human.
As I just said, Kurumi specifically said that if she kills the first spirit, it would be as if all the spirits who followed after the first never existed, and that this is her goal.
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Old 2013-05-29, 11:37   Link #3003
iamadooddood
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Originally Posted by Marly View Post
I thought the original killed off the clone because she was not sticking to the plan that the original had in mind by spilling her spaghetti over Shidou's expression of kindness, not necessarily because she didn't want to be seen as weak- You have to keep in mind that Kurumi's present self that killed her clone (physical manifestation of her personality from an unknown time past, possibly a decade, even) isn't weak, so she has no reason to 'hide' her weakness by killing something that no longer is her present personality anyways.

I also don't see how this works as a "tsundere" character archetype if a character was "dere" some time in the past and was "tsun" in the present, though I don't think "tsun" even actually characterizes Kurumi in the first place.
She doesn't want to accept his kindness? Lol. If it had been the original in the clone's place, she would almost certainly have wavered. And she knows it. If one of her clones could waver like that, she herself could if the opportunity presented itself. Her actions towards Shidou after the rooftop battle (she'd have died for real at Kotori's hands if not for him) prove that.

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Originally Posted by RapidPotential View Post
I half-agree with this point, except I feel it's partly something else - perhaps it's that she's been taking the extreme actions to get at her goal at all costs (and for most part, nonchalant about taking lives). Thinking positively about her goal might cause her resolve to waver, which ties in to the previous point made about her killing her clone exactly for that reason.
Not really, "thinking positively" could also allow you to justify your acts, further motivating you to do those acts. It's only the idea that "there's a way to do things without having to do so many bad deeds" that makes her resolve waver, which is what happened with that Kurumi clone.

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Originally Posted by whitecloud View Post
An, so the first spirit is metatron? Isn't? But anyway how is the first spirit come into earth anyway, just come ? Or there is a catalyst? Basically someone call it?

By the way, is translator MIA?
Not the First Spirit, it's the Angel of the Spirit who represents Keter that's Metatron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
I doubt she cares about the spacequakes and the people killed by them, considering she tried to use one to murder thousands of people as a terror tactic on Shidou.
To elaborate on my point, her kindness is the "twisted" kind; by making it so that spirits never existed in this world, she's thereby sparing them of the pain they would endure if they existed. This is what I think Phantom meant.


Because that's what Kurumi is trying to do. In her words, by killing the first spirit, every spirit that came after it will cease to exist.


The way Kurumi worded it, the first spirit she's referring to, and the one she wants to kill, is the one that first appeared in our world.
I guess you're right.

But 10000 is actually a small number compared to 150 million. Who of us wouldn't pick the lesser of two evils? (Actually, whether this line is relevant depends on her motivations behind erasing all Spirits from this world. Which we don't know yet, since there's more than one way to interpret Phantom's words to Kurumi.)

In this world only, or in the other dimension as well? Because I thought what she said was quite vague.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naoe Yamato View Post
correct me if I'm wrong, but so far we know
Spoiler for number of each spirits:
Leave 1 and 2 blank first. We're not even sure if the numbers are supposed to correspond with the First/Second Spirits.


By the way... I don't think Kurumi is a human turned Spirit. Because when Phantom described what Kurumi's 12th Bullet did, she asked how it knew about its effects, when she hadn't shown it or described it. If she had been a human turned Spirit she'd have understood that it knew without having to ask.
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Old 2013-05-29, 11:52   Link #3004
Algester
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ok... I have Encore pictures... who gustas PM me but they have white borders so they needed to be stitched up

all these debate on what will Kurumi do is dragging... come on people we HAVE TO UNDERSTAND her first (she represents UNDERSTANDING) before we can go haywire again, and first she was already pretty clear with some of that aspect of her, she wants to kill the first spirit back in the past to create a paradox of some kind, why because she UNDERSTANDS the pain uhhh people? like her went through repeatedly, second she made clear to Shidou for him to UNDERSTAND that spirits are to be feared... yeah but that doesnt stops our harem protagonist, third even though she was disheartened that the second spirit that she was looking for was in another base besides where Tohka was hidden to she got a nadenade from Shidou I guess this is where stuff will concentrate as future plot relevance should she give up on her main agenda and entrust Shidou her powers we will never know but I will be feeling we will be in a very rough ride to force Shidou to have time master/shadow powers

Last edited by Algester; 2013-05-29 at 12:03.
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Old 2013-05-29, 12:00   Link #3005
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by iamadooddood View Post
I guess you're right.

But 10000 is actually a small number compared to 150 million. Who of us wouldn't pick the lesser of two evils? (Actually, whether this line is relevant depends on her motivations behind erasing all Spirits from this world. Which we don't know yet, since there's more than one way to interpret Phantom's words to Kurumi.)

In this world only, or in the other dimension as well? Because I thought what she said was quite vague.
My point is that if she were going to such great lengths to prevent all spacequakes from ever happening, it would naturally strongly suggest that she hates them/is opposed to using them. So using one so willingly and casually as a terror tactic would be the last thing she'd do, like a gun hater not wanting to use a gun.

Well it was somewhat vague, but she said she would erase all the spirits in our world. So she definitely doesn't mean the spirits in the spirit world.
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Old 2013-05-29, 12:02   Link #3006
iamadooddood
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
My point is that if she were going to such great lengths to prevent all spacequakes from ever happening, it would naturally strongly suggest that she hates them/is opposed to using them. So using one so willingly and casually as a terror tactic would be the last thing she'd do, like a gun hater not wanting to use a gun.

Well it was somewhat vague, but she said she would erase all the spirits in our world. So she definitely doesn't mean the spirits in the spirit world.
You might be right. I guess that I was harping too much on that one spacequake from 30 years ago...
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Old 2013-05-29, 12:58   Link #3007
Marly
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
As I just said, Kurumi specifically said that if she kills the first spirit, it would be as if all the spirits who followed after the first never existed, and that this is her goal.
Yes, but it still makes sense if the humans-turned-spirits never became spirits through this method; They would have actually technically "never existed." Same goes for the "natural spirits," since they would have technically never actually "existed" in the 'real' world in that sense.

Something odd about this, though- From what I hear, apparently according to Westcott, the spirits' dark forms are actually their natural/original forms in the other dimension. So if Phantom and Kurumi's plan is to prevent these spirits from crossing over and attain their current, non-dark/edgy forms in the first place, maybe there's little more to this than the typical well-intentioned extremist agenda. And I sort of doubt that's the goal anyways- Preventing the spacequakes, that is.

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Originally Posted by iamadooddood View Post
She doesn't want to accept his kindness? Lol. If it had been the original in the clone's place, she would almost certainly have wavered. And she knows it. If one of her clones could waver like that, she herself could if the opportunity presented itself.
That is objectively false. The clone has a very different personality from the original, so that's not what would have happened at all. Just because you would've done something several years ago does not mean you would do the same now. She even explicitly states she was "too naive" back then. That's what the whole Kurumi-clone thing is like.

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Originally Posted by iamadooddood View Post
Her actions towards Shidou after the rooftop battle (she'd have died for real at Kotori's hands if not for him) prove that.
What actions? Volume 7? She helped him because she had something to gain from it, although ultimately she didn't gain anything.
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Old 2013-05-29, 13:08   Link #3008
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by Marly View Post
Yes, but it still makes sense if the humans-turned-spirits never became spirits through this method; They would have actually technically "never existed." Same goes for the "natural spirits," since they would have technically never actually "existed" in the 'real' world in that sense.
I never said the human-turned-spirits won't be human or would cease to exist in the altered timeline; in fact I exactly said that they'd live as if spirits had never come into their lives.
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Old 2013-05-29, 13:20   Link #3009
Marly
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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
I never said the human-turned-spirits won't be human or would cease to exist in the altered timeline; in fact I exactly said that they'd live as if spirits had never come into their lives.
The way you responded to XFire made it seem like you were trying to be contrary since that was pretty much what he said, but alright.
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Old 2013-05-29, 13:28   Link #3010
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by Marly View Post
The way you responded to XFire made it seem like you were trying to be contrary since that was pretty much what he said, but alright.
I was disagreeing with him in that the spirits that came after the first would be "erased" because Kurumi's goal is to erase all traces of the spirits from this world. That would most likely mean that there wouldn't be any connections to the spirits for Kotori, Miku, and any other human-turned-spirits to run into in the first place, so they'd remain human.
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Old 2013-05-29, 22:35   Link #3011
RapidPotential
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Originally Posted by Marly View Post
Yes, but it still makes sense if the humans-turned-spirits never became spirits through this method; They would have actually technically "never existed." Same goes for the "natural spirits," since they would have technically never actually "existed" in the 'real' world in that sense.

Something odd about this, though- From what I hear, apparently according to Westcott, the spirits' dark forms are actually their natural/original forms in the other dimension. So if Phantom and Kurumi's plan is to prevent these spirits from crossing over and attain their current, non-dark/edgy forms in the first place, maybe there's little more to this than the typical well-intentioned extremist agenda. And I sort of doubt that's the goal anyways- Preventing the spacequakes, that is.
I actually see Westcott trying to harness that very power that Spirits hold; fact is their manifestations of their power defy the usual laws of reality (Yoshino causing rain whenever she appeared; Yamai twins causing storms whenever they appeared), so rather, he may have been trying to turn Tohka into her "primal" form or something in volume 7.

Still, Kurumi's goal has never been easy to decipher because only she knows what she truly wanted to attain at the end of everything; perhaps it's just to prevent crossing over to this world, something simple like that.

Besides, what we do know is that the Spirits (Tohka in particular) hold no recollection of their time in the other dimension. The way she describes it is like being in temporary stasis and the way they are dragged across the worlds is akin to being forcefully woken up. Based on this, it might be unlikely they would even be aware of their "original" forms.
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Originally Posted by Marly View Post
What actions? Volume 7? She helped him because she had something to gain from it, although ultimately she didn't gain anything.
Perhaps not goal-wise, but I'm pretty sure she at least got a pat on the head from Shidou, which would be somewhat of a personal gain.
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Old 2013-05-30, 05:23   Link #3012
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Or on that other dimension is where Phantom resides.. and each time they got Lost, they meet Phantom there and erases their memories or something before sending them back again and causing them to trigger a spacequake? ( just a really wild guess though)
Spoiler for Vol 7:
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Old 2013-05-30, 06:29   Link #3013
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still no high quality images for encore?
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Old 2013-05-30, 06:45   Link #3014
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still no high quality images for encore?
I can give but I cant post it here I'll PM you the pictures....
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Old 2013-05-30, 09:38   Link #3015
iamadooddood
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Originally Posted by Marly View Post
That is objectively false. The clone has a very different personality from the original, so that's not what would have happened at all. Just because you would've done something several years ago does not mean you would do the same now. She even explicitly states she was "too naive" back then. That's what the whole Kurumi-clone thing is like.



What actions? Volume 7? She helped him because she had something to gain from it, although ultimately she didn't gain anything.
Ok, fine, it took a little more effort to get the real Kurumi to warm up to him, but my point is she eventually did. At the very least she started to appreciate his kindness.

She did say that the particular clone of hers she killed was too na´ve, but I don't see where she described herself as too na´ve in the past. Actually, given the treatment Spirits get (kill on sight), being na´ve in the past or not wouldn't have mattered one bit. Unless you tell me her personality used to be like Yoshino's, which is even harder to believe.

She genuinely enjoyed that pat on the head from Shidou. Don't you deny it.

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I can give but I cant post it here I'll PM you the pictures....
Gimme too. Thanks in advance!
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Old 2013-05-30, 10:32   Link #3016
Miraluka
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I can give but I cant post it here I'll PM you the pictures....
Me too, please!
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Old 2013-05-30, 10:42   Link #3017
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Me too, please!
and me as well
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Old 2013-05-30, 10:49   Link #3018
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Can you also PM me.
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Old 2013-05-30, 11:04   Link #3019
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can i get it aswell
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Old 2013-05-30, 11:11   Link #3020
Marly
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Originally Posted by RapidPotential View Post
Still, Kurumi's goal has never been easy to decipher because only she knows what she truly wanted to attain at the end of everything; perhaps it's just to prevent crossing over to this world, something simple like that.
I'd say Phantom is at least partially aware of what Kurumi is doing (and they seem to be working together to some extent), since he/she would also be affected (and everyone that he/she turned into spirit) by the First Spirit being killed. Meaning, whatever Phantom is doing, it doesn't complement Kurumi's goal at all- In which case, there's more to Kurumi's goal than it seems.

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Originally Posted by RapidPotential View Post
Besides, what we do know is that the Spirits (Tohka in particular) hold no recollection of their time in the other dimension. The way she describes it is like being in temporary stasis and the way they are dragged across the worlds is akin to being forcefully woken up. Based on this, it might be unlikely they would even be aware of their "original" forms.
I'd assume their "original" personalities are fully awake in the other dimension in that case- Which would mean that the spirit dimension is actually quite a terrible place to be. And the fact that Westcott knows about this convinces me that maybe the "captive" Second Spirit is actually working with him for whatever the reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamadooddood View Post
Ok, fine, it took a little more effort to get the real Kurumi to warm up to him, but my point is she eventually did. At the very least she started to appreciate his kindness.
Again, how does she show that she "appreciates" his kindness? As I mentioned, Volume 7 doesn't really say anything because Kurumi had something to gain from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamadooddood View Post
She did say that the particular clone of hers she killed was too na´ve, but I don't see where she described herself as too na´ve in the past. Actually, given the treatment Spirits get (kill on sight), being na´ve in the past or not wouldn't have mattered one bit. Unless you tell me her personality used to be like Yoshino's, which is even harder to believe.
“That was humiliating. ——However, The•me•of•this•time,could possibly be too naive.”

“Ufufu, fufu. How is it? Spectacular isn’t it? This is my past. My experiences. They are the me from different time periods you know?”

The clones are literally physical manifestation of her past memories/experiences/personality- If she describes her clone was 'naive,' it effectively means that she herself was naive during the time that the clone represents. Also, why wouldn't it have mattered? That's what differentiates between the current Kurumi and her clone and their response to a helping hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamadooddood View Post
She genuinely enjoyed that pat on the head from Shidou. Don't you deny it.
It could've been as genuine as it was sarcastic. Kurumi is a character that has an odd sense of humor, so it might as well been just that- A joke. For the audience, and for herself.
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