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View Poll Results: Should Shiori run away with Sei?
Yes they should have run away together 20 35.09%
No Im glad they didn't 30 52.63%
I don't know.. 7 12.28%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2004-04-05, 15:43   Link #1
Shad da Von
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Sei and Shiori (Spoilers)

Do you think Sei and Shiori should have run away together? why? why not?

Im personally glad they didn't but Im not going to give my reasons till more people post.
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Old 2004-04-05, 17:27   Link #2
LoveOfAnime
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I am personally glad they did not because if they had sei would not have been in the story. That would have affected the whole season and the storyline without her. I love the way she is always teasing Yumi. She seems to me to be the most lighthearted fun loving of the bunch.
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Old 2004-04-05, 20:05   Link #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveOfAnime
I am personally glad they did not because if they had sei would not have been in the story. That would have affected the whole season and the storyline without her. I love the way she is always teasing Yumi. She seems to me to be the most lighthearted fun loving of the bunch.
In truth thats one of the first reasons I thought of also. however do you think Sei would have been happier if they had run? and if so wouldn't fans of Sei want her to be happiest? or perhaps they care so little for her that they disregard her feelings?

Also what do you think would have happened to them had they ran away? and why do you think Shiori desided not to go at the last minute?

just trying to get a little conversation going.

Shiori is personally one of my favourite characters and I think that she would have be discontent with her life had she ran. that and in the end I think it would have ended badly hurting them both more then it did.

I actually find it rather curious that Sei has such a large following as Im somewhat wary of her. I like her but some aspects of her character seem to me to be somewhat .. hmm. tainted?

And its also interesting how Shiori never was considered to be Sei's soeur and thus I think it creates noticable differance or separation between their relationship and that of any of the other characters' relationships.

ohkay I will be quiet now :P
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Old 2004-04-05, 21:32   Link #4
atua
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveOfAnime
I am personally glad they did not because if they had sei would not have been in the story. That would have affected the whole season and the storyline without her. I love the way she is always teasing Yumi. She seems to me to be the most lighthearted fun loving of the bunch.
It's interesting you say that, because to me the light-hearted Sei is mostly just a facade. I have a rather different view on Sei. She is the character that seems the most self-absorbed out of the Yamayurikai (maybe except for Eriko, but we know so little about her).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shad da Von
Also what do you think would have happened to them had they ran away? and why do you think Shiori desided not to go at the last minute?

just trying to get a little conversation going.

Shiori is personally one of my favourite characters and I think that she would have be discontent with her life had she ran. that and in the end I think it would have ended badly hurting them both more then it did.
I'm still trying to get a grasp on why Shiori decided not to go at the last minute. The anime would've had to cut a lot from the book due to time constraints, and I think much of the nuances in this relationship got cut along with it.

I think part of the reason Shiori decided not to go was that in coming to a decision to be a nun Shiori would've had to decide at one point to dedicate her life to God above all else. We don't really know anything about Shiori's religious experience, perhaps it had something to do with her parents death. In any case, we can infer that her faith is a very important part of her as something that gives her life meaning and comforts, supports and strengthens her. To leave with Sei would mean leaving all of that behind.

The other reason I think she left is for Sei's own sake. Sei was so single minded about Shiori that she was missing the bigger picture about their relationship and about life in general. As viewers, we can see how Sei missed Youko's genuine concern for her until the end. Also I think a lot of Sei's attraction to Shiori was to the sense of religious serenity that Shiori exudes. The irony is that by having Shiori, she would lose the part of Shiori that attracts her the most.

So I agree with you that running away probably wouldn't have worked out in the long run and that it would've hurt them both a lot more. The whole running-away was very much a spur of the moment decision, and actually I found that whole scene pretty cliched.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shad da Von
I actually find it rather curious that Sei has such a large following as Im somewhat wary of her. I like her but some aspects of her character seem to me to be somewhat .. hmm. tainted?
I love all the members of the White Rose family (I consider Shizuka an honorary member of the family), but Sei is my favourite. I can't really explain it well, but the personalities and flaws in the people of that family really appeal to my sense of aesthetics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shad da Von
And its also interesting how Shiori never was considered to be Sei's soeur and thus I think it creates noticable differance or separation between their relationship and that of any of the other characters' relationships.
Sei was quite deliberate in not choosing Shiori as her soeur. A soeur relationship is a formal relationship of duty and responsibility; as a part of a soeur couple, one would have duties to your grande soeur and be responsible for your petite soeur. I think Sei had a point in thinking that to formalise their relationship at that point would be to trivialise the depth of their feelings.

Sorry for the long post...

Last edited by atua; 2004-04-05 at 22:52.
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Old 2004-04-06, 00:09   Link #5
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i don't know! why always deep relationships have to end hurting everyone involved??? and thats the reason why we like them?? why we cannot think that they probably would be happy together in the long run?? i mean, they should...
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Old 2004-04-06, 01:21   Link #6
laurore31
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I just know the anime, not novel. but i'm glad they didn't.
because Sei won't be happy with a girl who wants to be nun --> some day, Shiori would have perhaps regretted. and Sei, obviously, would have reproach herself to be on the way of Shiori destiny.

And in the anime, we don't feel Shiori likes Sei.... maybe a little, but not how Rei likes Yoshino, Yumi likes Sachiko, or Sei likes her :-( So, it's definitively better that they didn't run away.

The elder sister of Sei and Youko are SUGOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII. I'm happy that they were here to help and comfort Sei...
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Old 2004-04-06, 10:24   Link #7
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Bah, who wants to get dumped by a Catholic girl in favor of celibacy? It's better that the relationship didn't get off the ground because that's what would have happened sooner or later.
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Old 2004-04-06, 12:12   Link #8
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Quote:
I think part of the reason Shiori decided not to go was that in coming to a decision to be a nun Shiori would've had to decide at one point to dedicate her life to God above all else. We don't really know anything about Shiori's religious experience, perhaps it had something to do with her parents death. In any case, we can infer that her faith is a very important part of her as something that gives her life meaning and comforts, supports and strengthens her. To leave with Sei would mean leaving all of that behind.
I believe this is along the lines of the truth. Shiori appeared to have devoted her life to God and I believe she had been acting like a nun with the plan to become one in the future once she felt she was old enough perhaps. Though I believe she may have loved Sei I think she basically picked God over Sei at the last moment, the one she had lived her life for before she even met Sei. To leave with Sei I believe would have been the equivalent to abandoning her purpose for life. Im somewhat skeptical whether or not I explained what I wanted to well -_-
Quote:
The other reason I think she left is for Sei's own sake. Sei was so single minded about Shiori that she was missing the bigger picture about their relationship and about life in general. As viewers, we can see how Sei missed Youko's genuine concern for her until the end. Also I think a lot of Sei's attraction to Shiori was to the sense of religious serenity that Shiori exudes. The irony is that by having Shiori, she would lose the part of Shiori that attracts her the most.
I believe this is probably close to the truth as well. As I said above I think Shiori trully cared for Sei and saw that their relationship was becoming harmful not only to Sei but also to herself.
Quote:
I love all the members of the White Rose family (I consider Shizuka an honorary member of the family), but Sei is my favourite. I can't really explain it well, but the personalities and flaws in the people of that family really appeal to my sense of aesthetics.
I find this rather interesting could I persuade you to try elaborating more?
Quote:
Sei was quite deliberate in not choosing Shiori as her soeur. A soeur relationship is a formal relationship of duty and responsibility; as a part of a soeur couple, one would have duties to your grande soeur and be responsible for your petite soeur. I think Sei had a point in thinking that to formalise their relationship at that point would be to trivialise the depth of their feelings.
I agree but I also believe this topic can be used as an argument against the popular belief that this series is primarily a yuri. I think that the emphises on the distinct differance between the relationship of Shiori and Sei (I believe to be more yuri content) and that of the soeurs' relationships creates a sense that the soeurs' relationship are comparible to a more sisterhood relation. I think this is also supported by the tradition of calling each other sister. Unfortunately I have not yet read the novels and my working knowledge of the intracasies of japanese lit is.. rather poor.
Quote:
Sorry for the long post...
No need to apologize I greatly enjoyed your post
Quote:
And in the anime, we don't feel Shiori likes Sei.... maybe a little, but not how Rei likes Yoshino, Yumi likes Sachiko, or Sei likes her :-( So, it's definitively better that they didn't run away
I don't think I agree which might be obvious from what I have written above. I do feel that Shiori liked Sei a great deal.
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Old 2004-04-06, 15:13   Link #9
laurore31
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Originally Posted by Shad da Von
I don't think I agree which might be obvious from what I have written above. I do feel that Shiori liked Sei a great deal.
but not enough to give up the idea to be nun.

Maybe i think that because the anime shows Shiori in only one episode, i don't know the novel.

For me, a love between two girls is an exclusive feeling. Sei can't deal with God... Shiori can't exclusivly love Sei and God. i think...

So it's better for Sei that Shiori gives up.... even if Sei suffers a lot... I think she would more and more suffer if Shiori has accepted the "escape".
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Old 2004-04-06, 16:09   Link #10
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Originally Posted by mantidor
i don't know! why always deep relationships have to end hurting everyone involved??? and thats the reason why we like them?? why we cannot think that they probably would be happy together in the long run?? i mean, they should...
Then relationships portrayed in such medium would be plain and boring.

Back onto the subject of "did Shiori love Sei," yes she did - very much so that she chose not to runaway with Sei. Two teenagers that runaway would pretty much end up dead (as in Suga Sei's "Ibara no Mori") and Shiori did not want to see that happen to her beloved Sei - so she chose not to come, especially after seeing Sei at the train station.
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Old 2004-04-06, 17:41   Link #11
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I presume that most people here, including myself, havenít read the novels. I think we really should not interpret anime before we know the content in novels. We all know that anime cut out A LOT from novels. Therefore, any judgment /argument / interpretation / issue just from anime is incomplete and most likely not fair. Just from anime, itís not clear why Sei loves Shoiri or vice versa, not clear why Shiori decides not to run away, not clear just what kind or how deep or whatever of relationship they have. Actually, itís not even clear what Sei means when she says that her attitude in class becomes strange. It may sound not important, but if one wants to analyze the situation, especially like the one here, he/she should really learn as much as possible before reaching conclusion. There are just examples of the issues in the anime. If people have read the novels, they may have different, very different, thoughts about this matter.



This is just like the age-old argument: if the survey says that certain brand of cereal is the best, most people might believe it and fail to take into account that they do not reveal the source, i.e. how this survey was conducted etc. It could very well be that 8 out of 10 people have ever had cereal before. Thatís the results of this survey.



Hence, I think, one can only use general assumption in this case such as; two teenage girls running away usually result in unhappy ending, things like general facts.



Sorry that I may sound harsh and I am in a hurry, but this really is only personal opinion.
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Old 2004-04-06, 18:53   Link #12
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Quote:
presume that most people here, including myself, havenít read the novels. I think we really should not interpret anime before we know the content in novels. We all know that anime cut out A LOT from novels. Therefore, any judgment /argument / interpretation / issue just from anime is incomplete and most likely not fair.
very possible and probable
Quote:
There are just examples of the issues in the anime. If people have read the novels, they may have different, very different, thoughts about this matter.
also very possible and probable
Quote:
It may sound not important, but if one wants to analyze the situation, especially like the one here, he/she should really learn as much as possible before reaching conclusion.
I agree. however it is rather unfortunate that at the present time it is rather difficult for me, and most likely others, to learn much more a the present time. Also in stating our opinions I don't believe we are concluding things but rather participating in a group effort to understand better the situations that we are talking about, primarily by stating our opinions and making suggestions to others. I agree that our current resources are limited but I don't believe this makes one's efforts to understand the events taking place in the anime as vain. I believe it is helpful -- and necessary -- that we should try to understand the truth of things instead of conceding to ignorance. In discusing the topic I believe we all learn, at least a little, about the subject. Hopefully someone more knowledgable then us will also come to discuse and enlighten us to intracasies of the situation that we otherwise would not have seen.

Though I agree we must recognize our limited ability and not jump to conclusions hastily.
Quote:
This is just like the age-old argument: if the survey says that certain brand of cereal is the best
Im not sure if I fulling agree with this statement.. perhaps its because Im a statistics major ..
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Hence, I think, one can only use general assumption[s]
I believe that the anime did a well enough job that we can look deeper, at least somewhat, into the situations that take place.
Quote:
Sorry that I may sound harsh and I am in a hurry, but this really is only personal opinion.
I don't believe you sounded harsh at all and I greatly appreciate your opinion -- which is valid. However I wish to apologize as to if I sounded harsh and for my bad grammar which in truth I really didn't try to use (I really doubt anyone cares though).

Now back on topic
Quote:
Back onto the subject of "did Shiori love Sei," yes she did - very much so that she chose not to runaway with Sei. Two teenagers that runaway would pretty much end up dead (as in Suga Sei's "Ibara no Mori") and Shiori did not want to see that happen to her beloved Sei - so she chose not to come, especially after seeing Sei at the train station.
Though this is possible I think you might be giving Shiori a little too much credit. I think it more likely that Shiori had desided not to go with Sei before she saw her at the station and that she just lost her courage to tell Sei her decision when she saw her. Though I do think she knew that it would end badly if she did run away and didn't want that for Sei, but I think her choice to become a nun may have played a significant part in her decision or at least strengthened her resolve.
Quote:
Quote:
I don't think I agree which might be obvious from what I have written above. I do feel that Shiori liked Sei a great deal.
but not enough to give up the idea to be nun.
perhaps not. She had been living a life devoted to God before she had met Sei and though she loved Sei I don't believe she wanted to forsake God, and for an (acting) nun to forsake her God is not a small matter.
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Old 2004-04-07, 00:53   Link #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980
Then relationships portrayed in such medium would be plain and boring.

Back onto the subject of "did Shiori love Sei," yes she did - very much so that she chose not to runaway with Sei. Two teenagers that runaway would pretty much end up dead (as in Suga Sei's "Ibara no Mori") and Shiori did not want to see that happen to her beloved Sei - so she chose not to come, especially after seeing Sei at the train station.
why we can't conclude that in the anime ?
I really like your thoughts, then ok I give up ;-) The anime cut too much scenes I believe. there are not enough time to like Shiori, not time to understand her...
thus I will trust you, if their love is dedicated (in the novel) to the failure/death, then yes sincerely I prefer that they didn't run away together! And with what you say, I begin to like Shiori...
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Old 2004-04-07, 01:23   Link #14
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Exclamation WARNING: Long Post Ahead! Apologies in advance...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shad da Von
As I said above I think Shiori truly cared for Sei and saw that their relationship was becoming harmful not only to Sei but also to herself.
I believe that Shiori truly loved Sei. But I think laurore31 is also correct in saying that Shiori didn't love Sei the way Sei loved her. I see Sei's love as an obsessive, all consuming love that would never have lasted. I know that it's the type of love that tends to get glorified, but I see it as something that's rather brittle and fragile. By putting Shiori on a pedestal in her own mind, Sei was just setting Shiori up for a fall sooner or later.

Also I don't believe Sei really knew Shiori as a person, eg when Sei was totally caught off guard by Youko's revelation about Shiori. I get the sense that she loved Shiori more as an ideal and not as a person.

*** PERSONAL RANT ALERT ***

In my opinion, one prerequisite (amongst many) for a successful relationship is knowledge, both self-knowledge and knowledge about your partner. What I mean is that people need to know who they are and what they want in life, and how that fits in with their partner's personality and goals if a relationship is to work out. Often couples break up because they discover down the track that they have very different and incompatible goals in life.

Being in love and having a partner doesn't magically make your own problems go away. You still need to figure out how to deal with them yourself, albeit with some help sometimes. Each person in the pair are still individuals who need to learn how to be strong as people by themselves. Even in a relationship, one needs to live for themselves first and foremost. There'll be times when this is not the case, but for the most part, I think that it should be. Living for someone else all the time will just make you miserable and bitter.

*** END RANT ***

As for how all this relates to Sei and Shiori, Sei made the mistake of assuming that Shiori will give up her life goals for Sei. Also Sei tried to use Shiori to solve her personal problems without actually looking at her own underlying issues. If the only thing that Sei learnt from the whole Shiori incident was that she needs to start living for herself, then that would've been a valuable lesson.

On a more shallow note, I'm glad she learnt this lesson since that's why we get treated to some of Sei's more outrageous antics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by laurore31
For me, a love between two girls is an exclusive feeling. Sei can't deal with God... Shiori can't exclusivly love Sei and God. i think...
I'm not sure that I agree that romantic love between two people is *always* an exclusive feeling, but I do agree that Shiori can't exclusively love both God and Sei. I don't see it so much as a matter of her choosing God over Sei, but rather her choosing to follow her own heart and path in life, rather than Sei's.

People choosing to live for someone else's goals often end up very bitter about the whole situation. I wouldn't have wanted to see Shiori ended up hating Sei.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shad da Von
Quote:
I love all the members of the White Rose family (I consider Shizuka an honorary member of the family), but Sei is my favourite. I can't really explain it well, but the personalities and flaws in the people of that family really appeal to my sense of aesthetics.
I find this rather interesting could I persuade you to try elaborating more?
I don't know about the yellow rose family, but members of the white & red rose family both have certain stylistic characteristics that makes them distinct. For example, Sachiko/Youko are both outwardly dignified, reserved and elegant people in the "ojou-sama" mould. (Though their actual personalities are very different; Youko is a perceptive, self-assured and wise leader whilst Sachiko just looks self-assured but is really quite insecure.) Admittedly Yumi is a notable exception, but Yumi is an anomaly to the whole Yamayurikai system.

In the same way, the white rose family mambers (I'm including Shizuka here) also follow a certain archetype, but their similarities are based more on personality traits than appearance. Here's a list of some characteristics I think they have in common:
  • "Porcupines" dilemma. They're people with deep feelings who long to be understood, but create distance in various ways to avoid emotional pain.
  • Perceptive. Eg. Sei noticed Yumi's attraction long before Sachiko did (ep 2), Shimako figured out that Yumi & Sachiko would be good for each other (ep 2), Shizuka had Shimako figured out in ep 13 and also spotted Yumi even if Yumi doesn't remember her (ep 6).
  • They're loners or see themselves as outsiders. Eg. Sei in ep 11, Shimako choosing to eat lunch outside away from others (ep 2), Shizuka as an outsider to the Yamayurikai in Rosa Canina.
  • Good sense of irony/humour. Eg. Sei's "two birds with one stone soeur pair", Shimako putting up a card she was supposed to "hide" on a public bulletin board.
  • Strong sense of personal free will. Eg. Sei & Shimako in Rosa Canina.
  • Direct and outspoken when necessary. Eg. Shimako speaking up for Yumi (ep 1), Shizuka to Shimako (ep 6, 12, 13)
  • Thoughtful & introspective. Eg. Sei (ep 10, 11, 13), Shimako & Shizuka (ep 13)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shad da Von
I agree but I also believe this topic can be used as an argument against the popular belief that this series is primarily a yuri. I think that the emphises on the distinct differance between the relationship of Shiori and Sei (I believe to be more yuri content) and that of the soeurs' relationships creates a sense that the soeurs' relationship are comparible to a more sisterhood relation.
I think the series (and perhaps the novel) is deliberately ambiguous on this point, so readers and viewers can have different but equally valid points of view depending on what scenes they're referring to and how they interpret those scenes. Although I see a number of the Yamayurikai pairings as strictly soeur relations, the Yumi/Sachiko (ep 2, 3, 8), Rei/Yoshino (ep 5 - I honestly thought for a second that they were about to kiss, 8, 13) and even the Sei/Shimako (ep 8, 9, 13) pairings all have one or more ambiguous scenes that suggest one or both of the soeurs may having deeper feelings.
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Old 2004-04-07, 02:27   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shad da Von
Though this is possible I think you might be giving Shiori a little too much credit. I think it more likely that Shiori had desided not to go with Sei before she saw her at the station and that she just lost her courage to tell Sei her decision when she saw her. Though I do think she knew that it would end badly if she did run away and didn't want that for Sei, but I think her choice to become a nun may have played a significant part in her decision or at least strengthened her resolve.
Yes, her devotion to Catholicism to serve herself by becoming a nun is one of the large issue. However, the anime failed to show Shiori's letter to Sei which reads:

[excerpt page 275 from "Ibara no Mori" - "Shiroki Bara" Chapter]
『私は、あの時本当にあなたと一緒に生きていけたらいいと思いました。けれど、ホームで私を待つあなたの横 顔を見ているうちに、それはとても困難であることがわかったのです。私とあなたが一緒に旅立った先に、何が 待っているでしょう。私は、私と出会ったことで、あなたをこれ以上傷つけたくはないのです。』

"At the time, I thought it would be dear to go by living along side with you. But, as I glimpsed your face at the station, I have realized how hard that reality would be. What will await us as we head for the unknown. I do not want to hurt you any more further because of me."

Maria-sama ga Miteru Ibara no Mori, 1999.5.10, Konno Oyuki, printed by Shueisha/Cobalt Magazine

Last edited by kj1980; 2004-04-07 at 02:46.
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Old 2004-04-07, 09:27   Link #16
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I love you kj1980!!! Thank you so much for the excerpt and the translation!

Last edited by atua; 2004-04-07 at 12:09.
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Old 2004-04-07, 12:00   Link #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980
[excerpt page 275 from "Ibara no Mori" - "Shiroki Bara" Chapter]
『私は、あの時本当にあなたと一緒に生きていけたらいいと思いました。けれど、ホームで私を待つあなたの横 顔を見ているうちに、それはとても困難であることがわかったのです。私とあなたが一緒に旅立った先に、何が 待っているでしょう。私は、私と出会ったことで、あなたをこれ以上傷つけたくはないのです。』
I could understand that!!! im soooo happy now!! if you want to know why, read my post in the "thank you" thread! besides that clarifies many things, thanks!
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Old 2004-04-07, 12:59   Link #18
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Nobody even brought up that in Catholicism if you have a same-sex relationship you are committing a sin.

It's not a sin to be gay, they teach that someone may be 'wired' that way, but they should not give in to it. It's a sin if they then pursue a relationship.


I honestly could care less, but I thought it was worth mentioning since Shiori was going to be a nun and seemed very devout in her religion.
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Old 2004-04-07, 13:10   Link #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laurore31
there are not enough time to like Shiori, not time to understand her...
I agree
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shad da Von
Shiori is personally one of my favourite characters
This statement may have been rather hastily fomulated on my part. Perhaps I have grown to like my imagined image of Shiori instead of the intended character in the anime. I believe this might be so because I have personally done a fair amount of studying on monasticism, admittedly for the Eastern Orthodox Church instead of the Catholic Church. However because of my personal interest in monasticism I feel I can understand Shiori better, at least primitively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atua
I believe that Shiori truly loved Sei. But I think laurore31 is also correct in saying that Shiori didn't love Sei the way Sei loved her. I see Sei's love as an obsessive, all consuming love that would never have lasted. I know that it's the type of love that tends to get glorified, but I see it as something that's rather brittle and fragile. By putting Shiori on a pedestal in her own mind, Sei was just setting Shiori up for a fall sooner or later.

Also I don't believe Sei really knew Shiori as a person, eg when Sei was totally caught off guard by Youko's revelation about Shiori. I get the sense that she loved Shiori more as an ideal and not as a person.
I agree with this. I have stated several times that I believe Shiori loved Sei; however, I can't recollect myself ever stating that Sei loved Shiori. I believe Sei's "love" for Shiori was destructive to them both.

Now to go a little off topic..
Quote:
Originally Posted by atua
In my opinion, one prerequisite (amongst many) for a successful relationship is knowledge, both self-knowledge and knowledge about your partner. What I mean is that people need to know who they are and what they want in life, and how that fits in with their partner's personality and goals if a relationship is to work out. Often couples break up because they discover down the track that they have very different and incompatible goals in life.

Being in love and having a partner doesn't magically make your own problems go away. You still need to figure out how to deal with them yourself, albeit with some help sometimes.
I feel this is fairly well said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atua
Each person in the pair are still individuals who need to learn how to be strong as people by themselves. Even in a relationship, one needs to live for themselves first and foremost. There'll be times when this is not the case, but for the most part, I think that it should be. Living for someone else all the time will just make you miserable and bitter.
This however I don't fully agree with. I don't believe one should live for themself first and foremost, this I believe can lead to a destructive relationship. I believe for the most part humanity is living this way already. People I think are for the most part are selfish. Looking at oneself I think one can realize how self absorbed we can be think thoughts like "I should wake up now", "I think I will read the newspaper", "Im feeling kinda hungry hmm maybe I will go eat that". Our entire day is rather selfishly self absorbed in our own well being and self pleasure. However I believe we should love our neighbour as we love ourselves. Taking into account how much we love ourselves thats a fair amount. Am I saying that Shiori should have gone with Sei? no no no. I am saying we should try to love everyone and care for everyone. I don't believe living for someone else will make one miserable and bitter but rather the opposite. However take what Im saying with a grain of salt (wisdom) I believe one must watch out for their own soul and flee from that which will harm it. What does it profit a man if he saves the world and loses his own soul? which brings up the interesting topic of would you kill someone to save a million others? (a topic I like to discuss with people). However Im getting a little more religious then I had intended -_-
Quote:
Originally Posted by atua
People choosing to live for someone else's goals often end up very bitter about the whole situation. I wouldn't have wanted to see Shiori ended up hating Sei.
I think living "for someones else's goals" in the way you mean it is indeed rather destructive. But I don't believe it means we should focus on ourselves first and foremost.

Anway what Im trying to say is that I think people should live for others but must not forget themselves in the process. moving back on topic..
Quote:
Originally Posted by atua
As for how all this relates to Sei and Shiori, Sei made the mistake of assuming that Shiori will give up her life goals for Sei. Also Sei tried to use Shiori to solve her personal problems without actually looking at her own underlying issues. If the only thing that Sei learnt from the whole Shiori incident was that she needs to start living for herself, then that would've been a valuable lesson.
I believe that Sei was indeed living for herself, she was just doing a poor job of it. I believe she was so self absorbed that she could no longer see reality around her to the point that she didn't know who Shiori was or what she was about, even though she was spending all her time with her. Though I think she woke up a little after she knew Shiori wasn't coming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980
[excerpt page 275 from "Ibara no Mori" - "Shiroki Bara" Chapter]
『私は、あの時本当にあなたと一緒に生きていけたらいいと思いました。けれど、ホームで私を待つあなたの横 顔を見ているうちに、それはとても困難であることがわかったのです。私とあなたが一緒に旅立った先に、何が 待っているでしょう。私は、私と出会ったことで、あなたをこれ以上傷つけたくはないのです。』

"At the time, I thought it would be dear to go by living along side with you. But, as I glimpsed your face at the station, I have realized how hard that reality would be. What will await us as we head for the unknown. I do not want to hurt you any more further because of me."

Maria-sama ga Miteru Ibara no Mori, 1999.5.10, Konno Oyuki, printed by Shueisha/Cobalt Magazine
Ahh very interesting! Thank you! Perhaps Shiori saw that their relationship was having a negative impact on Sei and thus she didn't want to hurt her "any more further". Which makes me wonder if Shiori knew their relationship was harmful long before the final event at the station.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyByNite
Nobody even brought up that in Catholicism if you have a same-sex relationship you are committing a sin.

It's not a sin to be gay, they teach that someone may be 'wired' that way, but they should not give in to it. It's a sin if they then pursue a relationship.

I honestly could care less, but I thought it was worth mentioning since Shiori was going to be a nun and seemed very devout in her religion.
This is true and I wonder if this may have been another influence for her to not go with Sei. And could be a reason why she wasn't supposed to see Sei anymore in the first place.
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Old 2004-04-07, 13:50   Link #20
laurore31
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: France
yes Sei feels a destructive love for Shiori.
When I said that love between girls is "exclusive", I said that because at one time of my life, I had the same feeling as Sei's one.

even if the girl who we love is near us, even if this girl loves us too, the conclusion is the hell: the obsession that we simply can't stop. Then the only "drug", which can help us to cure, is a sudden separation. Maybe Shiori has understand that and that's the reason she says she doesn't want to hurt Sei any more. Sei nourishes her feeling as long as she sees Shiori. Then it's really a good thing that Shiori hasn't come at the station...
the day when the Sei's wound will have healed, she will be able to love again. but it takes time ;-)

This form of love (Sei's love) can't be supported by anyone, even not Shiori who is a nun in her heart. to be a nun is not the reason to push back somebody. I think the author used this with an aim of perhaps make understandable that even a person who is a nun cannot support to be loved thus, while being the principal obsessions' subject of someone...ne ?
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