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View Poll Results: Should Shiori run away with Sei?
Yes they should have run away together 20 35.09%
No Im glad they didn't 30 52.63%
I don't know.. 7 12.28%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2004-04-07, 15:06   Link #21
Shad da Von
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My browser appears to not want me to post this message. I deleted my cookies and reloged so I will try again.

Thank you laurore31 your very insightful. I agree with you and kj1980 that Shiori didn't run with Sei out of love for her.
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Old 2004-04-08, 10:25   Link #22
atua
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Originally Posted by laurore31
Yes Sei feels a destructive love for Shiori...even if the girl who we love is near us, even if this girl loves us too, the conclusion is the hell: the obsession that we simply can't stop...

The day when the Sei's wound will have healed, she will be able to love again. but it takes time ;-)

This form of love (Sei's love) can't be supported by anyone, even not Shiori who is a nun in her heart. to be a nun is not the reason to push back somebody...
I agree that Sei's obsessive love is impossible for any one to support. You made a great comparison to it being like a drug. And like a drug addict, Sei would have been constantly looking for that next "high"...

But it is also clear that Sei has move on and started to heal from these events. This was made clear in ep 10 when she recognises the fact that they're now both better off by staying away from each other. Sei's new awareness of the passage of time and the need to look ahead and start living her life by the end of episode 11 is in stark contrast to her attitude whilst she was with Shiori where she wanted time to stay still.

The theme of change and renewal is echoed in the final episode by the turning of the seasons. Just as spring once brought Shiori into Sei's life, it also brought Sei to Shimako's life, and in time will bring Shimako's future petite soeur to Shimako...

Apart from the passage of time, I also think that Shimako had a good deal to do with Sei's healing process. Even as Sei has helped Shimako open up to other people, the responsibility of being Shimako's grande soeur has taught Sei to be less self-absorbed and gain a broader and more balanced perspective of the world.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shad da Von
Ahh very interesting! Thank you! Perhaps Shiori saw that their relationship was having a negative impact on Sei and thus she didn't want to hurt her "any more further". Which makes me wonder if Shiori knew their relationship was harmful long before the final event at the station.
My feeling is that even if Shiori didn't know for sure, she probably suspected well before their final parting, perhaps near the time of their first fight about Maria-sama. After all, I think this was one of the reasons she chose to stay awy from Sei initially, and the scene with the headmistress supports this view. But humans are emotional creatures, and given that Shiori was truly in love with Sei, she would have found it very difficult to stay away for too long. It was only when she realised that Sei was seriously set on running away that she found the conviction to stay away permanently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atua
Each person in the pair are still individuals who need to learn how to be strong as people by themselves. Even in a relationship, one needs to live for themselves first and foremost. There'll be times when this is not the case, but for the most part, I think that it should be. Living for someone else all the time will just make you miserable and bitter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shad da Von
I don't believe one should live for themself first and foremost, this I believe can lead to a destructive relationship.
Perhaps I should rephrase that. What I should've said is that people can't live for someone else's expectations and goals. To be forced to live in a way counter to one's own conscience and ideals is a very unpleasant way to live. A trivial example would be a person who wishes to be an artist being forced by his parents to be a doctor etc instead.

I think that living for one's own ideals is ethically neutral; it all depends on the particulars of what you're trying to do and why. A person's goals could be selfish goals that only serve one's own baser desires, or selfless goals that benefits many. What those goals are is a matter for the individual.

Sometimes I think that *all* desires are ultimately selfish. Even those deeds that appear selfless are often motivated by emotional & spiritual self-gratification? What a person gives up in material things is often balanced by the emotional and spiritual well being gained. Even "religious" people do good deeds to gain "heavenly" rewards. Admittedly I usually only think this on days where I'm feeling particularly cynical or depressed.
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Old 2004-04-08, 16:28   Link #23
Shad da Von
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atua
The theme of change and renewal is echoed in the final episode by the turning of the seasons. Just as spring once brought Shiori into Sei's life, it also brought Sei to Shimako's life, and in time will bring Shimako's future petite soeur to Shimako...
Ahh perceptive. I unfortunately often times focus so much on the characters that I forget to take notice of the hints given by the environment into the situations. I will have to go back and revisit this in the anime, after Im done finals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atua
Apart from the passage of time, I also think that Shimako had a good deal to do with Sei's healing process. Even as Sei has helped Shimako open up to other people, the responsibility of being Shimako's grande soeur has taught Sei to be less self-absorbed and gain a broader and more balanced perspective of the world.
I believe this is an interesting topic that hasn't really been delt with in much detail -- Sei's recovery after the event. And I agree that Shimako probably helped a great deal in Sei's healing; however, I believe there was a great deal of healing, though perhaps more of a realization of reality, before they met. Also I wonder how Shiori is faring. I believe it was probably very hard on her being the one that to heal her beloved friend she had to permanently separate herself from the relationship.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atua
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shad da Von
Perhaps Shiori saw that their relationship was having a negative impact on Sei and thus she didn't want to hurt her "any more further". Which makes me wonder if Shiori knew their relationship was harmful long before the final event at the station.
My feeling is that even if Shiori didn't know for sure, she probably suspected well before their final parting, perhaps near the time of their first fight about Maria-sama. After all, I think this was one of the reasons she chose to stay awy from Sei initially, and the scene with the headmistress supports this view. But humans are emotional creatures, and given that Shiori was truly in love with Sei, she would have found it very difficult to stay away for too long. It was only when she realised that Sei was seriously set on running away that she found the conviction to stay away permanently.
This is well said. As to their first fight about Maria-sama I personally can't think of a more frightful thing someone I love to say other then "Are you choosing God over me?" or something similar like "choose God or me!" Oh what a trully terrible feeling Shiori must have felt!


Quote:
What I should've said is that people can't live for someone else's expectations and goals. To be forced to live in a way counter to one's own conscience and ideals is a very unpleasant way to live. A trivial example would be a person who wishes to be an artist being forced by his parents to be a doctor etc instead.
This I agree with this
Quote:
I think that living for one's own ideals is ethically neutral; it all depends on the particulars of what you're trying to do and why. A person's goals could be selfish goals that only serve one's own baser desires, or selfless goals that benefits many. What those goals are is a matter for the individual.
Indeed its what's in the persons heart that motivates the action that is more important then the action itself.
Quote:
Sometimes I think that *all* desires are ultimately selfish. Even those deeds that appear selfless are often motivated by emotional & spiritual self-gratification? What a person gives up in material things is often balanced by the emotional and spiritual well being gained. Even "religious" people do good deeds to gain "heavenly" rewards. Admittedly I usually only think this on days where I'm feeling particularly cynical or depressed.
This is an interesting thought that is rather new to me. Though I believe religious people do indeed do good for "heavenly" reward, I believe that it depend apon the person yet again. Where a bad servant would act out of fear of punishment, an ohkay servant would act good out of hope for reward, and a good servant would act good out of love for the master and not desire reward. That is my opinion

EDITED:
I have also made note that several people have voted yes on the poll and I encourage you to post your opinion why.
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Old 2004-08-07, 15:34   Link #24
The Yellow Dwarf
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Originally Posted by guest
[font=Times New Roman][size=3]I presume that most people here, including myself, havenít read the novels. I think we really should not interpret anime before we know the content in novels. We all know that anime cut out A LOT from novels. Therefore, any judgment /argument / interpretation / issue just from anime is incomplete and most likely not fair. Just from anime, itís not clear why Sei loves Shoiri or vice versa, not clear why Shiori decides not to run away, not clear just what kind or how deep or whatever of relationship they have. Actually, itís not even clear what Sei means when she says that her attitude in class becomes strange.
I, for one, disagree with this attitude. It's important for people to understand that anime characters and novel characters -- any fictional characters, no matter how real they may seem, are not real. They are nothing but imaginary constructions by their creators to serve a particular purpose. Sei is not a real person, and neither is Shiori. Therefore, the situation exists solely in the telling of the tale.

Every storyteller has her own vision, her own intepretation, and her own agenda to achieve in her own story. Even the same story, the same characters, can be told to mean completely different things and achieve different ends. There is no extraneous information about the characters to be had because the characters are limited to the narrative frame they are in - in this case, the anime. Perhaps there are more information about Sei in the novels or the manga, but they are decidedly different tellings of the story (or not), which allows different intepretations.

A meaningless example: in Episode 4 at 5:51 (Anime-Source and Lililicious ver.), Eriko touches her hair when she speaks to Rei. This may or may not exist in the novel, but the duration of her actions, the environment, and the context, all invite intepretation that can be missing in the novel or the manga. (A better example may be the creators' switching the Valentine and Christmas episodes to meet their own ends.) Because of the characters inseparable connection with the narrative, I think it's best to think of the novel, the manga, and the anime as "parallel universes."

I was never fond of the "should" type questions, because it always seemed somewhat didactic and authoritarian. Should people eat pork? Should they be punished if they eat pork? Should we teach children that it's wrong to eat pork because they "shouldn't"?

If we are speaking of a universal moral imperative, then the question would be like "should people run away with their lovers?" If we are speaking only of this specific case, then the question becomes limited to Shiori's ( ) situation.

If we apply the question to a universal level, then my answer is probably: not a good idea. Like many have said, for two teenage girls to run away with no means of livelihood, their lives may turn to ruin very quickly. I think there's the possibility of them living out a pretty good life, but the probability is low. (For some reason I keep thinking of Nabokov's Lolita and Hemingway's A Farewell to Arms, both of which end tragically.)

If the question simply addresses Shiori alone without any regard to a universal, then the answer entirely depends on Shiori. Whatever she thinks best in her situation should (and is) the course she will take. Obviously, she thought it best not to go with Sei; and that, to me, is the best answer.

However, Shiori and Sei are not real people; they are fictional characters. Therefore they would have never run away successfully, because the creators wouldn't allow it. It is probably better to talk about why she didn't than whether she should.

I place myself entirely at the mercy of the translators. Personally, I'm not too fond of ep. 11. Though it's nice to see Rosa Gigantea's past, I feel some parts are horribly underachieving.

The beginning of the episode is especially gripping: Sei's monologue in front of the statue of Virgin Mary is probably one of the most moving scenes in the entire series so far. And when she repeats "Amen. Amen. Amen," I was almost moved to tears by this sense of desperation in her. But, what immediately followed the scene -- Sei and Shiori's first meeting -- seems to lack the intensity and impact it should have in any love as explosive as Sei's. To be honest, I wouldn't have minded fireworks or flowers blossoming in the background or something equally spectacular, or a 30 second absolute silence to convey what happened in Sei's heart at that moment (which was no doubt monumental); but, the creators chose to subdue the atmosphere with Sei's now somewhat bland and ineffective reflection, in line with the ambiguity and calmness that permeates the series.

(Sei's narration continues throughout the episode, but I feel the rest after the scene at the statue to be distractive and counterproductive.)

Their second meeting in the school chapel is quite moving. The entire exchange does seem somewhat bizarre, but her actions are definitely the straightfoward Sei that we know and love. There is definitely something that Sei needs from Shiori, and though we know very little about Shiori, it's likely that the feeling's mutual. The subdued tone of the narration and the vagueness really adds to the audience's confusion, especially in Sei and Shiori's case because their closeness is much greater in magnitude than any others in the series we've seen so far. I think I posted my opinion on Sei's relationship with Shiori in another thread somewhere, but to put it in a nutshell, I don't believe it was anything sexual, at least up to this point.

Although things do start to get complicated as later Sei did try to force a kiss on Shiori (and much later they did share one). It is likely that, in the face of an almost unavoidable separation, Sei tries to evolve the relationship, to define it into something definite and durable (as lovers), in an attempt to keep Shiori from going away.

Like many have said, the decision to "run away" (vaguely similar to the event in Angel Sanctuary) is pretty much at the spur of the moment, but it is also characteristically Sei-sama. Sort of like "going wrong with confidence," I guess. Sei's onee-sama says at some point, "follow the path that you will not regret." I believe that Sei is definitely that kind of person who makes quick decisions but stick to them no matter the consequences.

If Shiori were just like Sei, then they might have really ran away together, but she was not (and even if she were, Sei probably wouldn't have liked her in the first place). Shiori is, from my imagination, a person more influenced by others. It's also quite difficult to understand why she wanted to become a nun; why she would ever engage in a relationship with Sei and not talk about her plans to become a nun; or why she suddenly decided to go with Sei's plan to elope.

Since Sei was all fired up and ready to go, the only reason the plan failed was Shiori. Sometimes I wonder if the school headmistress a.k.a. Kaori, had anything to do with it. From ep. 10, we'ver learned that Seiko and Kaori planned a similar thing and Kaori ended up dead (or so Seiko thought), but from ep. 11 Kaori turns out to be alive and well as the school headmistress. Both Sei and Shiori were called in for a talk at the principal's office, and it's not inconceivable that Kaori told her tale to Shiori- the aspiring nun, which made her realize how bad an idea running away may be. Just a possibility.

It's difficult for me to say if her "wounds" have healed, partly because I don't believe such "wounds" would ever heal. However, Sei definitely has changed (and IMO for the better) after the event (though it's more like a whole year). If she did not meet Shiori, she might still be a self-loathing outcast she considered herself to be at the beginning of ep. 11, and if she did not attempt to run away with Shiori and got "saved" by her onee-sama and Youko, she might not have realized how complete a person she really was. Fate is like that, I guess.

The short segments of Sei in the "Forest of Thorns" are definitely interesting. At first long-haired Sei and Shiori are together sleeping there, and Shiori disappears. Sei's reaction was, "I will never let myself be close to anyone again." She goes on to specify the time of the separation (winter of my 16th year). Only minutes after she turns seventeen, on her way back from the station with Youko and her nameless onee-sama, the long-haired Sei cuts off her locks in the forest of thorns and says "goodbye, Shiori." The new Satou Sei is born at that moment. It's still difficult to say whether she'll let herself "be close to anyone" again, but it's certain that her transformation is the direct result of that failed plan to run away.

To jump to another subject, does anyone feel that Shimako and Shiori are slightly similar? Both are somewhat withdrawn, softspoken, and seemingly "perfect." Yet in ep. 5 when Sachiko was mad at Sei for fooling around with Yumi and suggested Sei doing the same with Shimako, Sei said, "Shimako? I didn't even think of that." Did Sei change her taste or is there something different?
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Old 2004-08-24, 04:59   Link #25
Asynca
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Originally Posted by atua
It's interesting you say that, because to me the light-hearted Sei is mostly just a facade.

I think you just hit the nail SQUARE on the head. I think she still suffers a lot from the situation with Shiori - and that whole flirty playful thing is for the most part an act to fool people (and probably herself) into thinking it's in the past. I have no doubt in my mind she still goes home and cries over it - if not cries, participates in some sort of self-destructive behaviour to cope with/mask her depression?

I want to write a SeixYumi with Yumi uncovering this - but because I don't have the novels or the manga I'm not sure if it's already been dealt with! Someone spoil me.
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Old 2004-08-25, 06:45   Link #26
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Personally, I think Yumi's presence has aided in Sei's healing process.

As much as it is said her cheerful facade is just a mask for her hurt - laughing and teasing Yumi has helped Sei to realise that life has to go on and she is still able to experience joy and happiness without Shiori around.

And I don't doubt it that it is ALL fake laughter when Sei reacts towards Yumi's reactions.

Of course, having Yumi come to her to ask for advice and help also made Sei realise that she isn't the only ones have problems in her own life.
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Old 2004-08-25, 19:45   Link #27
The Yellow Dwarf
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Originally Posted by Asynca
I think you just hit the nail SQUARE on the head. I think she still suffers a lot from the situation with Shiori - and that whole flirty playful thing is for the most part an act to fool people (and probably herself) into thinking it's in the past. I have no doubt in my mind she still goes home and cries over it - if not cries, participates in some sort of self-destructive behaviour to cope with/mask her depression?
Hmm... I wonder.

Why would you think that the whole flirting with Yumi would be an act to fool others? Who would Sei want to fool and why? And seeing how she has a past for questionable relation with another student, don't you think this sort of acting would be playing too close to the fire?

Although, I'm still intrigued by the fact that Sei picks on Yumi instead of Shimako. Is it because Yumi is "safer" because of Sachiko over-protectiveness?

Last edited by The Yellow Dwarf; 2004-08-25 at 20:32.
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Old 2004-08-25, 22:52   Link #28
atua
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Hmm... I wonder.

Why would you think that the whole flirting with Yumi would be an act to fool others? Who would Sei want to fool and why? And seeing how she has a past for questionable relation with another student, don't you think this sort of acting would be playing too close to the fire?

Although, I'm still intrigued by the fact that Sei picks on Yumi instead of Shimako. Is it because Yumi is "safer" because of Sachiko over-protectiveness?
I don't think it was the flirting that Asynca was refering to, but the happy-go-lucky persona that Sei seems to put on. Well, at least that's what I thought Asynca meant...

But in light of the recent ~Haru episodes, whilst I still think that Sei hides a lot of inner turmoil behind her smile, I do think that Sei genuinely enjoys spending time with Yumi, and that the fun she shares with Yumi is real. The present day Sei has changed a lot from the Sei we saw in in the past in Ibara no Mori, and even though it's certainly true that Sei's not totally over the Shiori incident and won't be for some time, she has made big strides towards healing, mostly because of Yumi.

As for why Sei picks on Yumi so often, she's already mentioned that picking on Yumi is a "two for the price of one" deal. She gets to see Yumi's interesting reactions, and gets to see Sachiko's jealous reaction thrown in as well. A secondary motive may be to subtly get back at Sachiko for asking Shimako to be her soeur.

Sei & Shimako on the other hand, is a more complex relationship, but I think ~Haru 6-8 (Cherry Blossom arc) will make the reasons why Sei doesn't approach Shimako in the same way as Yumi pretty apparent.
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Old 2004-09-07, 01:28   Link #29
Kaoru Chujo
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What an interesting thread. I am glad that Sei and Shiori didn't run away, but I hope they get back together again later, when they are both older. Shiori had decided before to become a nun, but we often change our minds about things we decided when we were younger.

Of course, if it's a decision between Sei and God, Shiori will have to choose God, or she will end up sorry. But some catholics believe it is possible to be lesbian and a good catholic at the same time. Here's a website: http://www.catholiclesbians.org/. In any case, it is part of Christianity that we all sin. We don't have to be perfect to be a member of a church. (I myself am an ex-Christian, so you can take my words with a grain of salt, if you like.)

Sei needs someone who is both loving and responsible, as Shiori proved to be. It is clear that the "happy-go-lucky" Sei is really sad underneath, and trying to cheer herself up by being funny. Comedians are often sad and serious people, really. She tried to solve her underlying sadness by giving in to her grand passion and running away with Shiori, but Shiori saved her from her own irresponsibility. It would not have worked out well. But it may later.
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Old 2004-09-07, 15:20   Link #30
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo
Sei needs someone who is both loving and responsible, as Shiori proved to be. It is clear that the "happy-go-lucky" Sei is really sad underneath, and trying to cheer herself up by being funny. Comedians are often sad and serious people, really. She tried to solve her underlying sadness by giving in to her grand passion and running away with Shiori, but Shiori saved her from her own irresponsibility. It would not have worked out well. But it may later.
It's interesting to think about the Shiori situation after seeing episode 6. I think after Shiori left, Sei spent a long time depressed. She was really very antisocial for a while, not really talking to anyone but the other roses by the look of things. Part of that, IMHO, is that she was so SERIOUS about everything - even with Shiori, nothing was ever just silly happiness, it was always a "serious relationship". With Shimako later on, I think she learned that she didn't need such an all-consuming kind of relationship to be close to someone.

Even then, you see some of her funniness, but it's usually pretty vicious and cynical. Seems that's the way she generally deals with stuff...

I expect her silliness with Yumi started in that same vein, but by Christmas, it's more genuine.

Sei's the character I identify with the most.. Can you tell?
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Old 2004-09-07, 18:29   Link #31
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Upon rewatching the episodes in order (moving Valentine's Day into the second season), it dawned on me how soon after Shiori left that Shimako arrived. The way they presented the stories in the show, it wasn't so easy to notice that less than 4 months have passed between the two events. That went a long way towards explaining why Sei was so depressed when she met Shimako.

More than that, though, I'm impressed with how much better Youko has gotten at manipulating a situation in such a short time. I know she means well, but she can be kind of scary.
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Old 2004-09-08, 01:30   Link #32
The Yellow Dwarf
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Sei had always been a little anti-social, so was Shiori and so was Shimako. Sei seemed a little self-deprecating, Shiori was perhaps restrained by her faith, and Shimako was quite possibly a loner by her own disposition. It is very interesting to hear the thoughts from Sei and Shimako (season 1 ep.11 and season 2 ep. 6), and what we may possibly conjecture from the image of Shiori alone in the chapel praying to Maria-sama. The three of them are very very alike, but also very different at the same time. Perhaps this is where a sense of kinship develops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo
I hope they get back together again later, when they are both older. Shiori had decided before to become a nun, but we often change our minds about things we decided when we were younger.
I hope they don't. I think this is one of the main points in the Sei story: to live life as it is and not obsess over the future. The conclusion to the hidden story of Kasuga Seiko and Shimako's reminiscence both point to this idea.

Though, to be honest, I just want to see Sei and Shimako together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hooliganj
Upon rewatching the episodes in order (moving Valentine's Day into the second season), it dawned on me how soon after Shiori left that Shimako arrived. The way they presented the stories in the show, it wasn't so easy to notice that less than 4 months have passed between the two events. That went a long way towards explaining why Sei was so depressed when she met Shimako.
Quite true. Though I was actually quite surprised that nobody is suprised that Sei "mentioned another younger student's name" again in so short a time. Then again this would explain Sei's hesitation to get close to Shimako despite a certain attraction.

Quote:
More than that, though, I'm impressed with how much better Youko has gotten at manipulating a situation in such a short time. I know she means well, but she can be kind of scary.
Ah, Youko. I want to like her so much, but her mix of "mom" and "Ikari Gendo" persona is just too overwhelming.
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Old 2004-09-10, 07:13   Link #33
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Actually, Youko and Eriko were surprised that Sei slipped out a name.

That's why they dragged Shimako to the council.
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