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Old 2013-03-16, 08:12   Link #3781
millie10468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post
^^ the reason why I can't bring myself to like Miyuki even if it's absolutely not her fault being the only one who can keep Tatsuya in check (his only reason for... what? I myself don't know what'll happen if Miyuki died, will he just nuke the world and killed countless innocent people who absolutely have nothing to do with her death just to express how he has the worst time of his life to them?). And I hate the Yotsuba in general. I wouldn't think of anyone who fear Tatsuya to be jerks either. We can't have someone who can destroy the world at his whim to be at peace without someone trying to get rid of him because of their paranoid, and I can't blame them.

While I can understand what you're saying, I feel like I CAN blame them for being paranoid. If he makes it clear that Miyuki is the only reason he has his power in check, why would anyone be stupid enough to cause her death or do something to her knowing this? And even if they didn't know, don't you think he has every right to be mad if something were to happen to his, arguably, only reason for existing? I don't think it's fair to blame him for having the ability to use his power on the world if the world attacks him first. This is, of course, assuming he has no intention of nuking the whole world if Miyuki dies in, say, a natural accident.
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Old 2013-03-16, 08:19   Link #3782
Kleeyook
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millie10468 View Post
While I can understand what you're saying, I feel like I CAN blame them for being paranoid. If he makes it clear that Miyuki is the only reason he has his power in check, why would anyone be stupid enough to cause her death or do something to her knowing this? And even if they didn't know, don't you think he has every right to be mad if something were to happen to his, arguably, only reason for existing? I don't think it's fair to blame him for having the ability to use his power on the world if the world attacks him first. This is, of course, assuming he has no intention of nuking the whole world if Miyuki dies in, say, a natural accident.
Yeah, but no one would be able to have a normal conversation with the siblings naturally knowing that. Also, the army, the other families would assume the Yotsuba is trying to use (of course they will, they already do that, as always) the sibling to gain more power, and cause trouble for them. It'll feel like we're in the middle of Cold War again, but this time facing the annihilation from one guy, whose mind we can't really comprehend whether he's rational or not.

Since people with such supernatural power only appear in fiction, you all simply assume that other humans are bastards for being paranoid. But people are different, they have their own groups. What if Tatsuya's existence make Japan powerful and start to use their *peaceful* way relying on unseen intimidation, connection and Tatsuya's intelligence to take advantage of other countries? What if the Yotsuba starts acting all high and mighty and abusing their power gained their control of Tatsuya? Tatsuya and Miyuki will have no choice but to act independently, but they'll have obligation to protect their clan or country if something happened, and I don't think that Japan is always on the right side.
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Old 2013-03-16, 08:32   Link #3783
millie10468
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Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post
Yeah, but no one would be able to have a normal conversation with the siblings naturally knowing that. Also, the army, the other families would assume the Yotsuba is trying to use (of course they will, they already do that, as always) the sibling to gain more power, and cause trouble for them. It'll feel like we're in the middle of Cold War again, but this time facing the annihilation from one guy, whose mind we can't really comprehend whether he's rational or not.
That is certainly true or I can at least see how it would be difficult for a person who knows the truth naturally having a conversation with the siblings. However, I do get the feeling that Tatasuya and Miyuki, to some extent, are not people who will feel bad if other people can't talk naturally to them. Furthermore, while I can agree that the Yotsuba will use the siblings to gain power, they are technically part of the Yotsuba. Power is power, regardless of how it's gained and Tatsuya's power is a natural occurence due to his family's genetics. The Yotsuba have a priviledged path to that power but even they are not safe from Tatsuya's wrath if they try to mess with Miyuki. What I'm trying to say in this convoluted way is that, even if Tatsuya "dislikes" the Yotsuba, he's part of them. I feel like he's justified in attacking anyone who attacks Miyuki regardless of whether they know which family he's from or how dangerous his power is without Miyuki keeping him in check.
I don't know if Miyuki feels such a strong obligation to her clan or country but I do think Tatsuya's only obligation (at least, in his mind) is to Miyuki. Her safety is priority over anything else, regardless of duty.

And I don't think people who are afraid of Tatsuya's power are bastards. I just think of it as really simple: if you're afraid of a wild dog, don't go around poking it with a stick or trying to kill it for acting in its nature. That's not fair.

Last edited by millie10468; 2013-03-16 at 08:44.
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Old 2013-03-16, 08:49   Link #3784
Gundamx
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It make me remember heavy arms
-2 idiots who is too valuable to discharge from army since they might join another world power
-but they can't control them so they would rather if they die in action...
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Old 2013-03-16, 09:53   Link #3785
Kleeyook
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millie10468 View Post
That is certainly true or I can at least see how it would be difficult for a person who knows the truth naturally having a conversation with the siblings. However, I do get the feeling that Tatasuya and Miyuki, to some extent, are not people who will feel bad if other people can't talk naturally to them. Furthermore, while I can agree that the Yotsuba will use the siblings to gain power, they are technically part of the Yotsuba. Power is power, regardless of how it's gained and Tatsuya's power is a natural occurence due to his family's genetics. The Yotsuba have a priviledged path to that power but even they are not safe from Tatsuya's wrath if they try to mess with Miyuki. What I'm trying to say in this convoluted way is that, even if Tatsuya "dislikes" the Yotsuba, he's part of them. I feel like he's justified in attacking anyone who attacks Miyuki regardless of whether they know which family he's from or how dangerous his power is without Miyuki keeping him in check.
I don't know if Miyuki feels such a strong obligation to her clan or country but I do think Tatsuya's only obligation (at least, in his mind) is to Miyuki. Her safety is priority over anything else, regardless of duty.

And I don't think people who are afraid of Tatsuya's power are bastards. I just think of it as really simple: if you're afraid of a wild dog, don't go around poking it with a stick or trying to kill it for acting in its nature. That's not fair.
Yeah, but I just feel sorry of the enemies of Yotsuba Clan to get owned by Tatsuya because their attack will somehow affect Miyuki since the sibling are part of the clan, even if they both loathe it. And considering their treatment of Tatsuya and their overall hypocrisy, I just don't feel like cheering the Yotsuba and somehow want Tatsuya to take revenge at them somehow like...

1) Destroy them for good. I'd like this scenario but people will just keep saying revenge isn't good and forgiveness bullshit blah blah.

2) Forgive the Yotsuba, but make them humiliated by their own actions and Tatsuya's superiority and saintly that they'd want Tatsuya to kill them for good instead.

And even if Tatsuya and Miyuki are nice, if the Yotsuba are dickheads, people will naturally loathe them all, unless the sibling do something to their own clan, like teaching them the hard way.
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Old 2013-03-16, 10:09   Link #3786
millie10468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post
Yeah, but no one would be able to have a normal conversation with the siblings naturally knowing that. Also, the army, the other families would assume the Yotsuba is trying to use (of course they will, they already do that, as always) the sibling to gain more power, and cause trouble for them. It'll feel like we're in the middle of Cold War again, but this time facing the annihilation from one guy, whose mind we can't really comprehend whether he's rational or not.

Since people with such supernatural power only appear in fiction, you all simply assume that other humans are bastards for being paranoid. But people are different, they have their own groups. What if Tatsuya's existence make Japan powerful and start to use their *peaceful* way relying on unseen intimidation, connection and Tatsuya's intelligence to take advantage of other countries? What if the Yotsuba starts acting all high and mighty and abusing their power gained their control of Tatsuya? Tatsuya and Miyuki will have no choice but to act independently, but they'll have obligation to protect their clan or country if something happened, and I don't think that Japan is always on the right side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kleeyook View Post
Yeah, but I just feel sorry of the enemies of Yotsuba Clan to get owned by Tatsuya because their attack will somehow affect Miyuki since the sibling are part of the clan, even if they both loathe it. And considering their treatment of Tatsuya and their overall hypocrisy, I just don't feel like cheering the Yotsuba and somehow want Tatsuya to take revenge at them somehow like...

1) Destroy them for good. I'd like this scenario but people will just keep saying revenge isn't good and forgiveness bullshit blah blah.

2) Forgive the Yotsuba, but make them humiliated by their own actions and Tatsuya's superiority and saintly that they'd want Tatsuya to kill them for good instead.

And even if Tatsuya and Miyuki are nice, if the Yotsuba are dickheads, people will naturally loathe them all, unless the sibling do something to their own clan, like teaching them the hard way.


I completely get what you're saying. It really does suck. BUT we can only hope that the Yotsuba will even tually step on Tatsuya's toes regarding Miyuki and then he'll hopefully go to town on their collective asses
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Old 2013-03-16, 11:04   Link #3787
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By the way, DarkDooM has posted Volume 9 on Jcafe for those who are interested.
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Old 2013-03-16, 14:23   Link #3788
willx
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Ahh! I just read the updates to Volume 8! Cuteness to the MAX .. squee!

And then, time for Tatsuya to rage!
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Old 2013-03-16, 15:06   Link #3789
kagato3
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I have a question. Is it explicitly stated anywhere that what Tatsuya went through (the experiment or training to become a Guardian) was against his will? I ask this because a statement he had after rereading volume 2 has me thinking.

Quote:
"People that can't use magic cannot learn it no matter how hard they try, and thus feel that it is unfair for society to reward Magicians for using magic.

Then, how about the students who can use magic, but lack the talent to catch up to the truly outstanding students regardless of their diligence, and in turn are looked down upon — this type of thinking would be perfectly reasonable, right?

Differences in talent is not unique to magic. This is apparent in other fields, such as the arts or athletics.

Even if they don't have talent in magic, maybe they have talents in other areas.

If they cannot bear to have no talent in magic, then they should find another path."

If someone who was only superficially acquainted with Tatsuya heard these words, they might have thought he was saying this to himself. But Miyuki, the only person present, would never make that kind of mistake.
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Old 2013-03-16, 15:12   Link #3790
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If I remember correctly his training began after his operation, and he had 6 years of age or so, so not much of a will at that age, without his emotions at that age I cannot even begin to fathom what he went through.
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Old 2013-03-16, 15:15   Link #3791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
I have a question. Is it explicitly stated anywhere that what Tatsuya went through (the experiment or training to become a Guardian) was against his will? I ask this because a statement he had after rereading volume 2 has me thinking.
I haven't seen it stated anywhere yet. I am doubtful it will ever be stated.
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Old 2013-03-16, 16:56   Link #3792
kagato3
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Originally Posted by Mars Mode View Post
If I remember correctly his training began after his operation, and he had 6 years of age or so, so not much of a will at that age, without his emotions at that age I cannot even begin to fathom what he went through.
Historicly 6 isn't that young to start combat training and if you have ever dealt with a 6 year old the are very willful but with out knowing if his genius level IQ was a product of the experiment it is unclear just how much of an informed decision he could make.

Well given how Miyuki thought his life would have been worse if he had not been a Guardian there is a good chance he did it willingly. I have no illusions that the Yotsuba isn't a house of horrors but volume 8 gives the frighting realization that they are likely better then they used to be as the Guardian program is still within human rights laws where as there older state mandated experiments on themselves to make them in to human weapons are no longer seen that way. While much more extreme it is likely not too far off of the training of the other numbered houses, like the Chiba's training, Erika has also been trained to kill from what has to be a young age given her level of swordsmanship.

Another interesting bit is Miyuki's mental block. It seems she can't deny Tatsuya is her brother. Offhand I can think of 2 reasons someone would do that the first would be to prevent her from developing any romantic feelings for him. The second would be so that there would be a line she would never cross in her treatment of him forcing her to always recognize him as family. I think the second is more likely as there apparently isn't a block about her lusting after him.
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Old 2013-03-16, 17:06   Link #3793
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Thats why Im saying 6 years and without emotions, he was cornered to take that training like it or not, and besides if the training is not inhuman as you apparently think so, what about his scars of torture.

And although you say Human rights, one thing is being trained to kill, and another altogether is to kill during the training.

And in the case of Miyuki is anyone guess, I dont have enough information to make a theory, but I would say youre probably right.
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Old 2013-03-16, 18:00   Link #3794
Kleeyook
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars Mode View Post
Thats why Im saying 6 years and without emotions, he was cornered to take that training like it or not, and besides if the training is not inhuman as you apparently think so, what about his scars of torture.

And although you say Human rights, one thing is being trained to kill, and another altogether is to kill during the training.

And in the case of Miyuki is anyone guess, I dont have enough information to make a theory, but I would say youre probably right.
Come on, Tatsuya might be willing to take the training and inhuman experiment from the Yotsuba.

Since even if he wasn't forced, he'd have to do so in order to be accepted into the family anyway, even as a tool. The thing about willingly take the harsh training and human experiment is probably true, since the other way is to die like dog... Such volunteerism!
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Old 2013-03-16, 18:33   Link #3795
Seitsuki
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>Star-crossed
>Forbidden love
>Main heroine

Someone knows their flags!


Maybe.
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Old 2013-03-16, 19:01   Link #3796
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>Star-crossed
>Forbidden love
>Main heroine

Someone knows their flags!


Maybe.
Depending on the genre, that's either sure-win romance flags or a death flags that's affirmation for the girl dying at the worst time possible... eg, like Cardcaptor Sakura VS Puella Magi Madoka Magica, the same flags can lead to different outcomes.
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Old 2013-03-16, 19:14   Link #3797
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You guys really know what are you saying right? I don't know what to say anymore.
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Old 2013-03-16, 19:17   Link #3798
Seitsuki
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Still, you have to admit it's cute as hell.

"Must not pander to popular stereotypes!"
(...)
"Aw, dang it."
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Old 2013-03-16, 19:43   Link #3799
babbo3d
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Historicly 6 isn't that young to start combat training and if you have ever dealt with a 6 year old the are very willful but with out knowing if his genius level IQ was a product of the experiment it is unclear just how much of an informed decision he could make.

Well given how Miyuki thought his life would have been worse if he had not been a Guardian there is a good chance he did it willingly. I have no illusions that the Yotsuba isn't a house of horrors but volume 8 gives the frighting realization that they are likely better then they used to be as the Guardian program is still within human rights laws where as there older state mandated experiments on themselves to make them in to human weapons are no longer seen that way. While much more extreme it is likely not too far off of the training of the other numbered houses, like the Chiba's training, Erika has also been trained to kill from what has to be a young age given her level of swordsmanship.

Another interesting bit is Miyuki's mental block. It seems she can't deny Tatsuya is her brother. Offhand I can think of 2 reasons someone would do that the first would be to prevent her from developing any romantic feelings for him. The second would be so that there would be a line she would never cross in her treatment of him forcing her to always recognize him as family. I think the second is more likely as there apparently isn't a block about her lusting after him.
couldn't we say that he did it willingly because they used Miyuki as bait.
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Old 2013-03-16, 20:51   Link #3800
kagato3
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Originally Posted by Mars Mode View Post
Thats why Im saying 6 years and without emotions, he was cornered to take that training like it or not, and besides if the training is not inhuman as you apparently think so, what about his scars of torture.
The scars were not from torture but from training to the point it might be called torture, Erika even identifies it as such and Miyuki confirms it.

Quote:
There was one feature there that sculptures lacked however — criss-crossing all over the skin were innumerable scars.

Many were cuts.

Just as many were punctures.

There were some minor burn marks in places.

Oddly enough there was no trace of fractures, but even accounting for that it was not a body raised in a usual way.

Mere normal training could never do this.

Nor could simply training until your blood ran.

Only actually being cut, stabbed, and burned, until blood flowed as if under torture, or perhaps the training itself was torture; could produce such a body. Precisely because Erika understood, she didn't scream out loud.

"Tatsuya-kun... you, just what..."

"Sorry, it's not something pleasant to look at."

[snip]

"Onii-sama, it's fine."

Miyuki's face was faintly red, but it came not from any shame at clinging to him half-naked.

"I know. That every one of these scars, is proof of the pain Onii-sama went through to become stronger than anyone."

But rather from looking deep into his eyes at such close range.

"So, I don't think Onii-sama's body is anything to be ashamed of."
And Volume 8 shows it is in character for him to keep the scars as a penalty for failing in training. and if the illustration in chapter 6 is anything to go on he got most of them in the 3 years between volume 8 and 5.

Quote:
“How could you leave a terrible blow like this without treatment!”

Sakurai-san was probably scolding my brother.

“It’s nothing major. There is no compromising damage to the bone.”

“Don’t act as if everything’s fine as long as nothing’s broken! Doesn’t it hurt!?”

“There is pain. However, it’s nothing more than a penalty I have set upon myself.”

Pain?

Penalty?

--What are they talking about?

“Haa…… you’re always like this…… Tatsuya-kun, I’ve already given up trying to correct that mentality of yours but……

At the least let me heal you up with magic, so take off your clothes please.”

Always?

“There is no need. If it becomes a hindrance in combat, it will repair itself.”

“……Tatsuya kun, even Guardians have a day to day life. Because we aren’t merely fighting machines. Speaking of which, about that incident, it would have been better for you to simply wake Miyuki-san and leave. As Guardians, though we should respect our charge’s will and freedom to the utmost, that’s no reason to get into a fight just because you don’t want to interfere with a nap.”
Quote:
And although you say Human rights, one thing is being trained to kill, and another altogether is to kill during the training.
While it is true he has killed many times before when he was 14, it seems you're assuming he killed during his training. While the possibility of death during training is very real nowhere is it stated that it is kill or be killed. It's just as likely if not more so that he killed while protecting her which would even explain why he told her about it.
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