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Old 2013-03-24, 16:54   Link #3921
kagato3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babbo3d View Post
If your family did that to you no matter how much you hated them wouldn't part of you think "how could they do that to their son/nephew" it does not mean you want to be part of them but it's not uncommon to think of such action as Galling, horrifying, or simply traumatic.
First, laying aside the fact that we don't have very clear veiws of what Tatsuya thinks of members of his family beyond him not trusting his father's intentions (for vaild reasons or not) and seeing his Aunt as a manipulator of him and his sister (but still by no means the worst) because the athuor likes to dance around the question, there is litirally no way he could hate his family.

Second, again you missed my whole point. He has never expressed that any of this (the operation, the training, haveing to protect his sister) is aganst his will and if it was all volentary then you agument is like blameing Alfred for makeing Burce Wanye into Batman.

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Originally Posted by Chimurry View Post
There's something to be remind and be clear: Aiko (I think is His name), refer to Tatsuya as mere tool and "Fake or Artificial Magician", in other words: He try to despise and late insult in the worst way He can imagine, somehow I believe this guy work close with Shiba father and His attitude are as low as servant by will, trying to get points to his "master" with over reacting compliments or insults to people he think his master have the same, his accounts is to do the same with Miyuki, but She hate the most this kind of people, no mention the situation goes worse if the object of insults and mocks are her beloved Oni Sama.
Speaking of the family interactions, I was surprise the way Kurobane twins deal with Tats in the past, so far I think they don't have any recent encounter, except Tats see them exiting from their grandma house, but from the short dialogue between Tats and Miyuki I don't feel hate, even by Tats words, there's some nice affection, Miyuki memories come from see them was with affection too and remember how jealous She was, cuz the twins looks more close to Tats than Her (during the party).
Given Aiko is the fouth butler and financial manager of the Yotsoba House, something Tatsuya's father is not a member of, I serously doubt he is the underling. All of Tatsuya thoughts paint the picture that their father was his lap dog and even then he did nothing to try to protect the guy other the stoping Tatsuya from going too far and even then it seems he might have been trying to make him not be as harsh on his mother, which was in turn based of his father's misunderstanding of Tatsuya (this is why I belive there might be more to the relationship between Tatsuya and his father then the siblings point of veiw shows, and that is everyone is misunderstanding the others motives)
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Last edited by kagato3; 2013-03-24 at 17:14.
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Old 2013-03-24, 17:06   Link #3922
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
First, laying aside the fact that we don't have very clear veiws of what Tatsuya thinks of members of his family beyond him not trusting his father's intentions (for vaild reasons or not) and seeing his Aunt as a manipulator of him and his sister (but still by no means the worst) because the athuor likes to dance around the question, there is litirally no way he could hate his family.

Second, again you missed my whole point. He has never expressed that any of this (the operation, the training, haveing to protect his sister) is aganst his will and if it was all volentary then you agument is like blameing Alfred for makeing Burce Wanye into Batman.
Dude, are you claiming that a 6 year old can make reasonable decisions? Whether he wanted to or not, the mental magic surgery was done to him, since he's not old enough to give proper consent, then it's not really "with or against" his will. Then after he lost his emotions, he of course, can't clearly think of anything besides his sister -- so who knows whether he has any proper will anymore as long as they use the "It's so you can protect your sister" which I'm not convinced by quite yet, but even then, he is no longer of sound mind to give that consent.

Remember, Bruce Wayne still doesn't become Batman until he's older, old enough to make decisions.

As for his family, it's clear, at the end of V4C8 .. he's already talking about an inevitable confrontation with his family where he even talks about killing his aunt. Unless he is willing to kill everyone however, even then that may not be enough dismantle the Yotsuba, which is what he is hinting at.

You seem to have a particular bias and dislike the idea of Tatsuya having been abused or having a dark past. Of Tatsuya having a feeling of powerlessness. I'm trying to figure out why. Cause it's clear he feels this way, that's why even as he explains to Miyuki in the same chapter above, he is trying to "convince himself" why he continues to go along trapped by the family.

Addendum: By the way to respond to your post earlier, it's clear by Miya's own dialogue that she did not "intend" or "plan" out that Tatsuya's only remaining feeling would be to care for Miyuki. She does say that "she thought it would make sense" at the time. So it was more of a partial accident that he retained his "feeling/urge" to have brotherly love for Miyuki as his only remaining emotion.
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Old 2013-03-24, 18:59   Link #3923
babbo3d
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
First, laying aside the fact that we don't have very clear veiws of what Tatsuya thinks of members of his family beyond him not trusting his father's intentions (for vaild reasons or not) and seeing his Aunt as a manipulator of him and his sister (but still by no means the worst) because the athuor likes to dance around the question, there is litirally no way he could hate his family.

Second, again you missed my whole point. He has never expressed that any of this (the operation, the training, haveing to protect his sister) is aganst his will and if it was all volentary then you agument is like blameing Alfred for makeing Burce Wanye into Batman.



Given Aiko is the fouth butler and financial manager of the Yotsoba House, something Tatsuya's father is not a member of, I serously doubt he is the underling. All of Tatsuya thoughts paint the picture that their father was his lap dog and even then he did nothing to try to protect the guy other the stoping Tatsuya from going too far and even then it seems he might have been trying to make him not be as harsh on his mother, which was in turn based of his father's misunderstanding of Tatsuya (this is why I belive there might be more to the relationship between Tatsuya and his father then the siblings point of veiw shows, and that is everyone is misunderstanding the others motives)
On becoming a guardian, i don't know whether he willingly became one or not because it involves a lot of details we don't know is possible he did it willingly. But on the subject of Tatsuya hating the yotsuba he might not be "able" to, but Tatsuya isn't a heartless android. He can have a negative views on someone, mistrust them , dislike them, and in a condition of continuous prejudice also want his freedom. It simply the way he has being treated as tool and the way they use him has been expressed by not just Miyuki or Tatsuya but being shown first hand if from and the statements of tatsuya of wanting his freedom it does not seem like they have a turbulent relationship we just come from two different view points of the story, so let's leave it at that (since it is not like i cannot see where you are coming from, and that is not like i don't understand since there is some room for interpretation).
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Old 2013-03-24, 21:31   Link #3924
Windknight111
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Isnt it partly the reason why Tatsuya became Miyuki's guardian is because of the last emotion he has in him?
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Old 2013-03-24, 22:51   Link #3925
kagato3
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Originally Posted by babbo3d View Post
On becoming a guardian, i don't know whether he willingly became one or not because it involves a lot of details we don't know is possible he did it willingly. But on the subject of Tatsuya hating the yotsuba he might not be "able" to, but Tatsuya isn't a heartless android. He can have a negative views on someone, mistrust them , dislike them, and in a condition of continuous prejudice also want his freedom. It simply the way he has being treated as tool and the way they use him has been expressed by not just Miyuki or Tatsuya but being shown first hand if from and the statements of tatsuya of wanting his freedom it does not seem like they have a turbulent relationship we just come from two different view points of the story, so let's leave it at that (since it is not like i cannot see where you are coming from, and that is not like i don't understand since there is some room for interpretation).
The main reason I've been trying to point this out is the author has been very good at avoiding making any statements of facts about the motives of those involved but instead focuses instead on one or more characters perception of their motives and when we see the unbiased reality things don't always mesh up. Things like this scream of playing with our expectations like a stage magician. I don't deny that it could be the grimdark way others are are saying but I think people are keeping their eye too much on the lady and not watching the author's sleaves.
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Old 2013-03-24, 23:22   Link #3926
babbo3d
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
The main reason I've been trying to point this out is the author has been very good at avoiding making any statements of facts about the motives of those involved but instead focuses instead on one or more characters perception of their motives and when we see the unbiased reality things don't always mesh up. Things like this scream of playing with our expectations like a stage magician. I don't deny that it could be the grimdark way others are are saying but I think people are keeping their eye too much on the lady and not watching the author's sleaves.
So what you are saying not everything is as it seems and their is likely more to the story correct?
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Old 2013-03-25, 01:08   Link #3927
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Originally Posted by babbo3d View Post
So what you are saying not everything is as it seems and their is likely more to the story correct?
What he is saying is that people need to pay attention more to how the author is handling perspectives.

A lot of the writing is from Tatsuya's perspective. He has a very logical mind, but he ALWAYS assumes a negative conclusion when dealing with anyone other than Miyuki unless provided with evidence to the contrary, and reacts accordingly. The author practically browbeats the reader with this fact -- including outright stating this from Miyuki's perspective -- and people STILL ignore it when drawing conclusions from sections of the story that are clearly being written from his perspective.
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Old 2013-03-25, 08:57   Link #3928
babbo3d
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Originally Posted by Rava View Post
What he is saying is that people need to pay attention more to how the author is handling perspectives.

A lot of the writing is from Tatsuya's perspective. He has a very logical mind, but he ALWAYS assumes a negative conclusion when dealing with anyone other than Miyuki unless provided with evidence to the contrary, and reacts accordingly. The author practically browbeats the reader with this fact -- including outright stating this from Miyuki's perspective -- and people STILL ignore it when drawing conclusions from sections of the story that are clearly being written from his perspective.
I understand that. But wouldn't his perspective (even if negative) be what we need to see his relationship with his family (and likewise the opposite).
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Old 2013-03-25, 10:34   Link #3929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babbo3d View Post
I understand that. But wouldn't his perspective (even if negative) be what we need to see his relationship with his family (and likewise the opposite).
That would make sense but as logical as he is, perception isn't always right. For instance have you ever thought someone hated you and it turns out they either a: "have no idea who you are and don't care" or b: "thought you where their friend"? that may be a little exaggerated, but honestly perception of the way others view ones self is generaly wrong. not that I have any idea what i'm talking about or am expecting the author to go into that.
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Old 2013-03-25, 10:46   Link #3930
babbo3d
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Originally Posted by SoloPanda View Post
That would make sense but as logical as he is, perception isn't always right. For instance have you ever thought someone hated you and it turns out they either a: "have no idea who you are and don't care" or b: "thought you where their friend"? that may be a little exaggerated, but honestly perception of the way others view ones self is generaly wrong. not that I have any idea what i'm talking about or am expecting the author to go into that.
What you are saying is true. But I'm not referring to the situation but the interaction from tatsuya to his family, is true we can not know the situation but we need his POV to know how he feels about them (even if he is a negative person).
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Old 2013-03-25, 11:51   Link #3931
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Well, third time is a charm. I've been reading these forums and the novels for quite some time now, so first of all i should thank the translators for their work, tyvm!

I've tried twice now to post something on this forum but it got blocked or something, and it was a giant post as well ...... (at least this time it worked)

Personally, i dont think the Yotsuba are bad, i mean imagine this scenario: you have a 5/6 years old son, that still doesnt know right from wrong, and in all aspects is, of course still a child, he's a sprout that will bloom into a very powerfull magician, but he's special, a BS, and unlike many other magicians he can use that ability instantaneously without a CAD, meaning you cant put a hold on him in normal ways like not giving him his CAD or using a counterspell, and that is a kid that can turn almost anyone in a pile of dust if he lets his emotions lead him. So the best course of action was to SEAL his emotions in order to rein him in, i think that would be the other motive that Miya, his mother was talking about in vol 8 "Although truth be told, the motivation behind that experiment wasn’t that alone……”

i think that treating him like a "failure/false magician" also had a purpose, by the way, they not only passed the directive to treat him like that, that directive came along with some lies about him, acording to vol 8, nobody except his mother, his aunt and her personal buttler knows about his true powers, heck, neither Miyuki nor sakurai knew about either or his powers, not about his regeneration, not about his BS ability, (However skilled Tatsuya-kun is, fighting a war...... Nevermind rushing straight to the front lines, isn't that far too dangerous? ), they didnt want anyone sucking up to Tats, trying to gain his favor like they did to Miyuki, since his power alone would be enough to tip the balance in favor of people like Kuroba Mitsugu, the head of the original main branch of the Yotsuba, so only a very select few know of his real powers, thats probably why the first buttler treats him like "dono" and people like the fourth tries to treat him like the directive, like trash, or do people really think that his family members with second intentions would treat him like trash? i doubt it.

His cover as a failure would also have a detterent effect against things like kidnapping, who would want to kidnap a brat only because hes a "better" than your average boy? If they knew he could decompose anything he wanted they would have quite a diferent opinion right?

His mother probably loved him quite a lot, in vol 8 the author using Myuki's viewpoint , hints that she seems sad, bitter when he oppens himself with strangers and not with her, and even altered when he questions her orders on the jeep (only her tone remained courteous; her voice trembled along with her back.), besides shes probably heavily traumatized by the use of her magic: first time she used the mental surgery she lost her sister's affection, her leadership of the clan, and got quite weakened by the strains the magic put on her body. The second time she lost her son, and it probably lead her to her early death.

Last edited by Kusanaguy; 2013-03-25 at 12:20.
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Old 2013-03-25, 11:57   Link #3932
Rava
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Originally Posted by babbo3d View Post
What you are saying is true. But I'm not referring to the situation but the interaction from tatsuya to his family, is true we can not know the situation but we need his POV to know how he feels about them (even if he is a negative person).
No, it makes it harder to see what is really going on because he goes out of his way to piss them off more.
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Old 2013-03-25, 12:18   Link #3933
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Originally Posted by Rava View Post
No, it makes it harder to see what is really going on because he goes out of his way to piss them off more.
That would sounds like an emotional response that he isn't capable of.
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Old 2013-03-25, 13:22   Link #3934
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That would sounds like an emotional response that he isn't capable of.
We've seen countless times just how much of a troll Tatsuya is. He doesn't NEED an emotional reason to do it. He does it to everyone whether he likes them or not. The difference is that he stops it sooner and is more good-natured about it if he likes you.
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Old 2013-03-25, 15:26   Link #3935
babbo3d
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No, it makes it harder to see what is really going on because he goes out of his way to piss them off more.
but aren't the actual situation and his relation with then equally important.
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Old 2013-03-25, 18:29   Link #3936
kagato3
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Originally Posted by babbo3d View Post
So what you are saying not everything is as it seems and their is likely more to the story correct?
Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rava View Post
What he is saying is that people need to pay attention more to how the author is handling perspectives.

A lot of the writing is from Tatsuya's perspective. He has a very logical mind, but he ALWAYS assumes a negative conclusion when dealing with anyone other than Miyuki unless provided with evidence to the contrary, and reacts accordingly. The author practically browbeats the reader with this fact -- including outright stating this from Miyuki's perspective -- and people STILL ignore it when drawing conclusions from sections of the story that are clearly being written from his perspective.
Exactly.
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Originally Posted by SeaDam View Post
That would sounds like an emotional response that he isn't capable of.
He is still very capable of some emotional responses and it is shown he likes to trigger emotional responses in others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by babbo3d View Post
but aren't the actual situation and his relation with then equally important.
But we aren't being shown much of the actual situation and even the point of views don't match. Lets take the situation with their father.

Tatsuya believes his father sees him only as a tool, merely used as a piece of recovery equipment for research samples and as as the manga put it not as a researcher used for his knowledge or skills.

Miyuki believes he is trying to use Tatsuya's talents and genius.

These 2 Points of view are pretty incompatible as if Miyuki is right then Tatsuya can't be seen as just a piece of recovery equipment for research samples, If Tatsuya is right then Miyuki is wrong about wanting to leach off his genius.

And what do we see when they meet? Does their father belittle Tatsuya? No. Does he demand he return to working for him? No Does he stick up for the financial manager of the Yotsoba House, who is basically in control of his company? Not really. He reprimands Tatsuya for speaking poorly of his mother and completely misreads him and seems more then a bit taken aback by his statement that he doesn't hate his mother.
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Old 2013-03-25, 19:10   Link #3937
babbo3d
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Originally Posted by kagato3 View Post
Yes


Exactly.

He is still very capable of some emotional responses and it is shown he likes to trigger emotional responses in others.

But we aren't being shown much of the actual situation and even the point of views don't match. Lets take the situation with their father.

Tatsuya believes his father sees him only as a tool, merely used as a piece of recovery equipment for research samples and as as the manga put it not as a researcher used for his knowledge or skills.


Miyuki believes he is trying to use Tatsuya's talents and genius.

These 2 Points of view are pretty incompatible as if Miyuki is right then Tatsuya can't be seen as just a piece of recovery equipment for research samples, If Tatsuya is right then Miyuki is wrong about wanting to leach off his genius.

And what do we see when they meet? Does their father belittle Tatsuya? No. Does he demand he return to working for him? No Does he stick up for the financial manager of the Yotsoba House, who is basically in control of his company? Not really. He reprimands Tatsuya for speaking poorly of his mother and completely misreads him and seems more then a bit taken aback by his statement that he doesn't hate his mother.
True because even if we knew the story from everyone points of view the story wouldn't change much since Tatsuyas action can only come from his decisions which inevitably can from his point of view even if they had the best intentions in the end if he decided to fight them (either because he doesn't know or doesn't care" if they had reasons other than the ones he thinks us knowing everything will not change anything that will happened) .
Before i'm flooded by people telling me I'm wrong ,I'm not saying that if Tatsuya knew everything he would not change his mind. At the end of the day tatsuya is the main character so of course the world will see is influence from his point of view.
About what Miyuki
Spoiler for Miyuki's thoughts on this situation:

I got something different i think she only pretended to be trick. AT least on the father i think they are pretty similar views.
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Old 2013-03-26, 01:10   Link #3938
ser4
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Hey guys Just started this series few days ago and i just finished volume 4 i read somthing about volum 5 being short stories volume. So my question is if i skip vol 5 ( no translation for it ) would i miss esentual parts of the story or would it be ok for me to go to vol 6 directly.
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Old 2013-03-26, 01:30   Link #3939
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Skipping v5 is ok and you wouldn't lose much
but that volume in a way or two can give you a clearer or wider view of the story and its characters
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Old 2013-03-26, 05:23   Link #3940
belatkuro
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Originally Posted by ser4 View Post
Hey guys Just started this series few days ago and i just finished volume 4 i read somthing about volum 5 being short stories volume. So my question is if i skip vol 5 ( no translation for it ) would i miss esentual parts of the story or would it be ok for me to go to vol 6 directly.
Read the translated ones, or at least the first and the last chapter of vol5.
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