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Old 2013-06-18, 06:16   Link #4941
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henzaeroz View Post
1. Nuclear fission >>> nuclear fission is either a nuclear reaction or a radioactive decay process in which the nucleus of an atom splits into smaller parts (lighter nuclei). >>> Tatsuya Decomposition

2. Nuclear fusion >>>> is a nuclear reaction in which two or more atomic nuclei collide at very high speed and join to form a new type of atomic nucleus >>> probably the Brazilian guy magic.
Actually, it's more like the other way round. Converting matter into energy is actually the result of nuclear fusion.

Though we're all a bit silly to "explain" physical concepts with "magic".
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Old 2013-06-18, 06:23   Link #4942
henzaeroz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Actually, it's more like the other way round. Converting matter into energy is actually the result of nuclear fusion.

Though we're all a bit silly to "explain" physical concepts with "magic".
ah i'm wrong.

i got this line from volume 7

Quote:
Magic that could decompose matter into energy.

This was not an annihilation reaction. Since this was directly decomposing matter down into energy, there was no loss of energy from the collision between electrons and positrons that would be seen in annihilation reactions. Based on Einstein's Formula, the energy created was mass multiplied by the speed of light squared.

there was no collision.

so yeah, Tatsuya can't do nuclear reaction.
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Old 2013-06-18, 06:31   Link #4943
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Guys , the last page of Double 7 chapter 5 is the release schedule of Novel and Manga
Spoiler:
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Old 2013-06-18, 06:34   Link #4944
bludvein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Actually, it's more like the other way round. Converting matter into energy is actually the result of nuclear fusion.

Though we're all a bit silly to "explain" physical concepts with "magic".
The author takes great pains to explain how his magic works though. Its part of the charm of the series, though I imagine its an absolute pain to the translators, especially when they aren't sure of the concepts themselves.

The post above you hit all the key points though. Material Burst has nothing to do with a nuclear reaction. Nuclear reaction (both fission and fusion) involve changing atoms around(with the excess energy being the explosion), while Tat's magic totally annihilates the matter.

See antimatter weapon. That right there is why the USNA freaked out. The other reason is nuclear weapons are banned worldwide in the story. So Miguel Diaz's magic would set the world's governments against the USNA, while Tat's magic is perfectly legal.
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Old 2013-06-18, 07:00   Link #4945
henzaeroz
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Originally Posted by bludvein View Post
So Miguel Diaz's magic would set the world's governments against the USNA, while Tat's magic is perfectly legal.
can you explain why it's legal or illegal ?
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Old 2013-06-18, 07:06   Link #4946
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henzaeroz View Post
can you explain why it's legal or illegal ?
tatsuya's magic does not poison the planet, the other's does.
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Old 2013-06-18, 07:08   Link #4947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Actually, it's more like the other way round. Converting matter into energy is actually the result of nuclear fusion.

Though we're all a bit silly to "explain" physical concepts with "magic".
I don't think Tatsuya uses those, as those results in nuclear waste problem. Tatsuya's power is radiation-free.
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Old 2013-06-18, 07:21   Link #4948
bludvein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henzaeroz View Post
can you explain why it's legal or illegal ?
Quote:
"A week ago, the International Magic Association concluded that the blast which obliterated the Zhènhai Naval Port was not in violation of the charter forbidding the use of 'radiation emitting weapons'".

'Radiation emitting weapons' was an abbreviation for 'weapons which contaminate the environment with residual radioactivity', a term mainly used by the International Magic Association, whose purpose is preventing the use of weapons which emit and leave behind radioactive residues as well as the national magic associations affiliated with them. The word 'weapon' was used, but the clause also included any magic which would result in radioactive contamination. The term itself was rare outside the Association, but despite being somewhat of a traditionalist magician, Kazama nevertheless naturally knew about it.

"As a result, the punishment motion submitted to the Association was rejected."

Miyuki's tense expression tensed even further for a moment, then relaxed.

"I was not aware a punishment motion had been forwarded."

Kazama replied in a bland tone. Miyuki knew that there was no way Kazama hadn't at least considered the possibility, but didn't speak a word.

"You do seem rather relaxed. You had no concern about the possibility of a penal detachment?"

By contrast, Maya hit back with a direct question.

Magicians were administered by the state, weapons of the state, and as such belonged to the state.

Even private magicians were forbidden from acting in any way which might go against the national interest. In this respect, globally, the rights of magicians were significantly limited in comparison to those of non-magicians.

Because of that, the International Magic Association had no military force of its own. The magicians belonging to the IMA were not of a scale anywhere approaching a force.

In return, the IMA called for the cooperation of each member state in order to implement multinational teams. If this 'mystery bomb' had resulted in the formation of a penal detail, those various countries which wished for a decline in Japan's national power would have sent their own powerful magicians along as well. As someone involved in the military, that was not a negligible concern.

"I was fully aware and confident that there would be no residual radiation."
Since Miguel Diaz's magic is a nuclear reaction, by its very nature it causes radiation. So its against international treaty to actually use his magic against another country. AKA a weapon of last resort.
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Old 2013-06-18, 07:25   Link #4949
henzaeroz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Breimoon View Post
tatsuya's magic does not poison the planet, the other's does.
probably Nuclear Fusion had never been invented in this universe.
Hydrogen Bomb has no radioactive waste



again i forget tatsuya in the development of a thermonuclear fusion reactor......... yeah they still don't invent nuclear fusion


ehhhh from whsie post

Quote:
Originally Posted by whsie View Post
The gist of the newest chapter has been explained. I'll just add a few things.
Spoiler for Dual Seven Chapter 5 Spoiler:
his magic is Nuclear Fusion, probably it's Legal
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Old 2013-06-18, 07:30   Link #4950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bludvein View Post
The post above you hit all the key points though. Material Burst has nothing to do with a nuclear reaction. Nuclear reaction (both fission and fusion) involve changing atoms around(with the excess energy being the explosion), while Tat's magic totally annihilates the matter.
Well, not quite. Nuclear fusion _does_ convert matter into energy, it's not merely "changing atoms around". But like I wrote before, categorizing a fictional ability like "magic" with physical phenomena is not very reasonable.

I'm out.
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Old 2013-06-18, 07:36   Link #4951
bludvein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henzaeroz View Post
probably Nuclear Fusion had never been invented in this universe.
Hydrogen Bomb has no radioactive waste


i assume they only know about nuclear Fision.
Pure fusion doesn't leave radioactive waste, but Hydrogen bombs use a fission trigger (which IS radioactive). Both fusion and fission are mentioned in the story.

Expect the science to be at least as advanced as the real world unless it says otherwise.
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Old 2013-06-18, 07:38   Link #4952
henzaeroz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bludvein View Post
Pure fusion doesn't leave radioactive waste, but Hydrogen bombs use a fission trigger (which IS radioactive). Both fusion and fission are mentioned in the story.

Expect the science to be at least as advanced as the real world unless it says otherwise.
they still don't invent the ThermoNuclear Fusion. and that's is what tatsuya's team do in thesis competition

Quote:
Originally Posted by whsie View Post
The gist of the newest chapter has been explained. I'll just add a few things.
Spoiler for Dual Seven Chapter 5 Spoiler:
his magic is Nuclear Fusion, probably it's Legal.....

can't wait for the Brazilian's Strategic Class Magic Explanation .
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Old 2013-06-18, 07:47   Link #4953
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I phrased that wrong, the material leftover from fusion is not radioactive, but it still emits neutrinos which are harmful to the environment.

The damage is relatively short lived (50-100 years instead of thousands of years), but its still probably against the treaty.

Anyway, im out. Im not at my best for answering questions when I've already been up like 20 hours.
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Old 2013-06-18, 07:53   Link #4954
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass%E2...gy_equivalence

Quote:
mass–energy equivalence is the concept that the mass of a body is a measure of its energy content. In this concept, mass is a property of all energy; energy is a property of all mass; and the two properties are connected by a constant
Quote:
Mass–energy equivalence does not imply that mass may be "converted" to energy, but it allows for matter to disappear, leaving only its associated energy behind, as non-material energy
there seems to be a bit of confusion so I figure we could have a bit of more in-depth details

okay, let's get down for a bit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reaction

Spoiler for Nuclear reaction:


and like you said, there are Nuclear fusion and Nuclear Fission. During this process, some mass "disappears" and leave behind its energy, but there will be some "leftover" in the form of material products (from the reaction) or radiation


However, for Tatsuya, you could say that he himself induces matter to "disappear" to emit energy without leaving any, I mean ANY, "leftover" => BANG, a pure blast of energy is produced
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Old 2013-06-18, 08:35   Link #4955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Actually, it's more like the other way round. Converting matter into energy is actually the result of nuclear fusion.

Though we're all a bit silly to "explain" physical concepts with "magic".
He's right actually, by description, fusion is the collide of two atomic nuclei to make a new atomic nuclei, while fision is the decay of an atomic nuclei. The interesting here is, for fusion, when the two atom nuclei that collide is lighter than iron, nuclear fusion actually generate energy. The reason for this is because the two particle collide at such high speed that The law of mass conservation doesn't hold(nuclei C, the result of collision between nuclei A and B is lighter than combined mass of nuclei A and B). The difference between the mass result in energy being generated. The opposite happen when the two atomic nuclei is heavier than iron(the two nuclei absorb energy to do fusion reaction instead of generating it). For fission reaction, the opposite requirement is needed. When the mass of the decaying atomic nuclei is heavier than iron, energy is generated while if the mass of the decaying nuclei is lighter than iron, it needs energy to decay. this is also why fission reaction is more dirty, the result of the decay is the radiation that we're afraid of, and they will keep decaying until the mass is small enough.
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Old 2013-06-18, 10:53   Link #4956
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i came i saw i kicked ass

I have't look into any of that nuclear stuff since if there is any war, i will throw every single stuff i can get my hand on at the enemy. Fusion, fission, doesnt matter that much.

BUT there is one thing i can say for sure this thread probably has the most conversations about realistic stuff and science.

For that, i love you all!!! (Everyone except CatRules since suddenly i feel the urge to bully him)
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Old 2013-06-18, 11:26   Link #4957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bietchie11 View Post
I have't look into any of that nuclear stuff since if there is any war, i will throw every single stuff i can get my hand on at the enemy. Fusion, fission, doesnt matter that much.

BUT there is one thing i can say for sure this thread probably has the most conversations about realistic stuff and science.

For that, i love you all!!! (Everyone except CatRules since suddenly i feel the urge to bully him)
Whyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!


Didn't you say you love cat!!!!!
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Old 2013-06-18, 11:54   Link #4958
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.................................................. ............... to think a casual statement could spark a page of posts
I'm not talking about Tatsuya's Material Burst being identical to a nuclear reaction. So debating about whether it constitutes a nuclear reaction or not and the radioactive waste comparison is kind of moot to me.

I'm just saying that it's 'equivalent', ie. with respect to the point that it involves matter converted to energy (e=mc2).
Like what Mentar said, in a nuclear reaction (let's not go into semantic specifics for the layman), simplistically speaking, there is a change in mass of matter (at the nuclei level) which is converted to or from energy; more specifically, usually the case where a small loss in mass of matter is equated by a large increase in energy (by a factor of 'the square of speed of light'). Of course, MB doesn't work in the same in the same way as a nuclear reaction in terms of the 'how' part. But, it's pretty much equivalent in the sense that matter is converted into energy, is what I was trying to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superD View Post
I don't think Tatsuya uses those, as those results in nuclear waste problem. Tatsuya's power is radiation-free.
Radioactive-waste free, not radiation-free. If energy travels, there is radiation. For eg, Infra-radiation = heat.
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Old 2013-06-18, 12:32   Link #4959
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I read this thread to read Ninendo spoilers, and somehow become engrossed in the talk of nuclear physics between you guys
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Old 2013-06-18, 13:01   Link #4960
Doom_Paperclip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larethian View Post
.................................................. ............... to think a casual statement could spark a page of posts
I'm not talking about Tatsuya's Material Burst being identical to a nuclear reaction. So debating about whether it constitutes a nuclear reaction or not and the radioactive waste comparison is kind of moot to me.

I'm just saying that it's 'equivalent', ie. with respect to the point that it involves matter converted to energy (e=mc2).
Like what Mentar said, in a nuclear reaction (let's not go into semantic specifics for the layman), simplistically speaking, there is a change in mass of matter (at the nuclei level) which is converted to or from energy; more specifically, usually the case where a small loss in mass of matter is equated by a large increase in energy (by a factor of 'the square of speed of light'). Of course, MB doesn't work in the same in the same way as a nuclear reaction in terms of the 'how' part. But, it's pretty much equivalent in the sense that matter is converted into energy, is what I was trying to say.


Radioactive-waste free, not radiation-free. If energy travels, there is radiation. For eg, Infra-radiation = heat.
Mass to energy conversion, however, does not occur only in nuclear reactions and antimatter annihilation. It's actually a lot more common than you would believe.

As previously pointed out several times in this thread, mass and energy are equivalent. It is not simply that one can be turned into the other, the two properties are inextricably linked. Due to this fact, any process that releases energy involves a conversion of mass into energy.

Take burning firewood, for instance. After burning it, if you were to weigh the ashes, the carbon dioxide gas and any other products of the reaction with an incredibly precise and accurate set of scales, you would find that they would be lighter than the wood and oxygen that went into making them. This is because some of the mass-energy was lost in the form of heat.

By the same token, all else being equal, a spent battery is lighter than a charged one, a relaxed spring is lighter than a compressed one, a cold object is lighter than a hot one and so on and so forth. You can google these facts if you don't believe me. The only reason we don't notice this in our every day lives is that the variations in mass are imperceptible in most contexts. However if you were able to, for instance, heat up an object to absurd temperatures and somehow prevent it from exploding in a ball of plasma and killing everyone in its vicinities, you would be able to increase its mass indefinitely.

On a side note, some of you may be wondering how this works on an atomic level. In the case of the firewood example, the number and types of atoms on both sides of the reaction are the same, so common sense would dictate at first that the mass shouldn't vary. The answer to this is that chemical bonds have negative energy proportionate to the stability of the bonds. The total negative energy of the chemical bonds after the combustion is "greater" than that of those existing before it, accounting for the decrease in mass. Similar changes can be seen in all sorts of chemical reactions and contexts. A dioxygen molecule, for instance, is slightly lighter than two free oxygen atoms.

What makes nuclear reactions so special is that they can convert mass to energy at an extremely high efficiency. Fission, for instance, converts a whopping 0.1% of mass into energy on average. This doesn't sound like much, but that's still millions of times more efficient than, say, burning fossil fuels. Fusion is even better, capable of converting 0.5% on average. However, Tatsuya's Material Burst beats them all with 100% conversion, making it approximately 200 times more efficient than a hydrogen bomb, placing it on the same level as matter-antimatter annihilation (better, in fact, since a lot of energy in annihilation gets dispersed in the form of neutrinos), with the added benefit that he can decompose any form of matter.

To conclude, it doesn't make any more sense to compare Material Burst to a nuclear reaction than it does to a chemical one. It is, however, still awesome and ridiculously powerful.

That concludes my lecture. That'll be 100 gil.
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