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Old 2013-07-02, 11:07   Link #5261
Voceane
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Originally Posted by alviam099 View Post
Here buddy, it was only George's misunderstanding regarding Molecular Divider, if you read the story after your quote, you'd know that Tatsuya used Decomposition.
I know but nobody correct him so he thinks what he sees is the real Molecular Divider. It's very surprising if he doesn't inform his friend who has to inform the ten masters. Even if he is wrong about what he thinks, the ten Master will be informed.
And William Sirius is from USNA, thus Koichi has to connect with the USNA to verify the information that's why he talk with the USNA agent.
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Old 2013-07-02, 11:18   Link #5262
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Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
What are you people talking about? He's perfectly capable of love. To exactly the right person.
This personally I'm hoping for the siblings to kiss throughout the story (not something related to the unsealing, btw).

I don't mean lip to lip though, Miyuki is prude enough so that a (harmless) kiss on the cheek is already an almost impossible hurdle.
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Old 2013-07-02, 12:04   Link #5263
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Originally Posted by iheartz View Post
His feelings of love may be lost, but it may be possible for new buds of love to grow. Also, I don't think Tatsuya is an expert at mind-manipulation magic so who knows?

Note: I'm neutral on this topic, I'm just throwing some ideas out.
Well, I can't claim 100% confidence in this but here's my take on it:

Tatsuya lost his "emotions" because the portion of his brain that handled that was converted into a magic calculation area (he already had a magic calculating area, but it was completely dominated by his natural magic).

As a result, he simply doesn't create new emotions. (He was left just enough to be loyal to Miyuki) They're not hidden or anything, they don't exist.

HOWEVER, I believe there have been studies with the human brain that indicate that when portions of the brain get damaged that handle certain functions, over time other parts of the brain can develop to take over to handle those lost functions. Like what happens when the two hemispheres of the brain get separated and can no longer pass information to each other.

In other words, it may be possible that over time, if it is necessary for him to have emotions, a different portion of Tatsuya's brain will gradually start processing emotions, and he'll start to act (more) normally.

...I did not phrase any of that clearly.
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Old 2013-07-02, 14:12   Link #5264
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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
Well, I can't claim 100% confidence in this but here's my take on it:

Tatsuya lost his "emotions" because the portion of his brain that handled that was converted into a magic calculation area (he already had a magic calculating area, but it was completely dominated by his natural magic).

As a result, he simply doesn't create new emotions. (He was left just enough to be loyal to Miyuki) They're not hidden or anything, they don't exist.

HOWEVER, I believe there have been studies with the human brain that indicate that when portions of the brain get damaged that handle certain functions, over time other parts of the brain can develop to take over to handle those lost functions. Like what happens when the two hemispheres of the brain get separated and can no longer pass information to each other.

In other words, it may be possible that over time, if it is necessary for him to have emotions, a different portion of Tatsuya's brain will gradually start processing emotions, and he'll start to act (more) normally.

...I did not phrase any of that clearly.
but the problem here is that his brain does not has "space" for emotions.
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Last edited by Ophis; 2013-07-02 at 14:35.
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Old 2013-07-02, 18:56   Link #5265
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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
but the problem here is that his brain does not has "space" for emotions.
Is this a confirmed reason for why he has no emotions? I thought it was just because the Yotsuba repurposed the part of his brain that handles his emotions.

At any rate, if we were to take the pseudo-science of Index correctly, there is no such thing as overloading a brain. Given that there ARE people with photographic/eidetic memories, if you were to consider the sheer amount of data that would require over a lifetime, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say the brain could repurpose some of that near-infinite storage to handle emotion processing.
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Old 2013-07-02, 19:00   Link #5266
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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
Is this a confirmed reason for why he has no emotions? I thought it was just because the Yotsuba repurposed the part of his brain that handles his emotions.

At any rate, if we were to take the pseudo-science of Index correctly, there is no reason for people to die from remembering too much. Given that there are people with photographic/eidetic memories, if you were to consider the sheer amount of data that would require over a lifetime, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say the brain could repurpose some of that storage to handle emotion processing.
Didn't the Yotsuba remove his emotions to make him capable of using magic normally. Born Specialized magicians aren't supposed to be able to wield other magic than the ones they were born with. Though Tatsuya is able because space were opened by removing his emotions/urges or something like that?
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Old 2013-07-02, 19:02   Link #5267
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What they did was insert a magic processing unit into the emotion part of his brain, making him able to use flash cast\general magic but as a result no strong emotions (they left some to make sure he doesnt turn into a super human sociopath; or was the lose of emotions a side effect, i dont know)

I'm fine with Tatsuya getting emotions i just dont want him to turn into a harem guy with no spine (because he wont know how to handle the new emotions)
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Old 2013-07-02, 19:50   Link #5268
tenchir
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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
Is this a confirmed reason for why he has no emotions? I thought it was just because the Yotsuba repurposed the part of his brain that handles his emotions.

At any rate, if we were to take the pseudo-science of Index correctly, there is no such thing as overloading a brain. Given that there ARE people with photographic/eidetic memories, if you were to consider the sheer amount of data that would require over a lifetime, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say the brain could repurpose some of that near-infinite storage to handle emotion processing.
There are also people with emotional disorder in the real world. Some types of people such as psychopaths are incapable of feeling love. Or how about savants who are amazing at one thing but are completely stunted when it comes to something else? The guy who is the inspiration for Rain Man could do things mentally with his mind that no one else in the world could do, but he is emotionally and mentally(in a lot of areas) stunted. Tatsuya could be functional artificial magical savant and when I say functional, I mean he still has most of his mental faculty compared to other savants who can't even take care of themselves.
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Old 2013-07-02, 19:57   Link #5269
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Originally Posted by tenchir View Post
There are also people with emotional disorder in the real world. Some types of people such as psychopaths are incapable of feeling love. Or how about savants who are amazing at one thing but are completely stunted when it comes to something else? The guy who is the inspiration for Rain Man could do things mentally with his mind that no one else in the world could do, but he is emotionally and mentally(in a lot of areas) stunted. Tatsuya could be functional artificial magical savant and when I say functional, I mean he still has most of his mental faculty compared to other savants who can't even take care of themselves.
Psychopaths can fall in love. They just don't love the same way normal people do, what with the whole lack of empathy.
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Old 2013-07-02, 20:49   Link #5270
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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
Is this a confirmed reason for why he has no emotions? I thought it was just because the Yotsuba repurposed the part of his brain that handles his emotions.

At any rate, if we were to take the pseudo-science of Index correctly, there is no such thing as overloading a brain. Given that there ARE people with photographic/eidetic memories, if you were to consider the sheer amount of data that would require over a lifetime, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say the brain could repurpose some of that near-infinite storage to handle emotion processing.
Yes, you are correct. The brain cannot be overloaded with information during the lifespan of a human being but in mahouka the issue is different. Every magician has a "magic calculation area" and Tatsuya's was occupied by his two magics, in order to create a second "magic calculation area" they had to erase his strong urges and put this new "artificial magic calculation area" in place of them. We'll have to wait for future explanation from the author about this matter.

But I still think that there's something strange about all this, I mean, why had they erased Tatsuya's memories from before the experiment? I have a theory about this:

In the middle of the experiment Tatsuya's emotional state became unstable and he went berserk causing a lot of trouble, Miya and Maya judged that they created something too powerful and it would be dangerous to leave Tatsuya like that. In order to prevent the situation going out of their control in future they did somethings to prevent that:

1 - they erased his urges and so he would never go berserk again.
2 - his new "artificial magic calculation area" was too powerful and like Miyuki, Maya became a seal for one of his powers. Sealing then his "artificial magic calculation area" and so restricting his capacity to wield magic.
3 - they erased his memories about all this for him to never come to know about this power of his and try to kill Maya to retrieve his power.

This all is just my speculation though. You people dont need to mind me
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Last edited by Ophis; 2013-07-02 at 21:04.
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Old 2013-07-02, 21:08   Link #5271
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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
Yes, you are correct. The brain cannot be overloaded with information during the lifespan of a human being but in mahouka the issue is different. Every magician has a "magic calculation area" and Tatsuya's was occupied by his two magics, in order to create a second "magic calculation area" they had to erase his strong urges and put this new "artificial magic calculation area" in place of them. We'll have to wait for future explanation from the author about this matter.

But I still think that there's something strange about all this, I mean, why had they erased Tatsuya's memories from before the experiment? I have a theory about this:

In the middle of the experiment Tatsuya's emotional state became unstable and he went berserk causing a lot of trouble, Miya and Maya judged that they created something too powerful and it would be dangerous to leave Tatsuya like that. In order to prevent the situation going out of their control in future they did somethings to prevent that:

1 - they erased his urges and so he would never go berserk again.
2 - his new "artificial magic calculation area" was too powerful and like Miyuki, Maya became a seal for one of his powers. Sealing then his "artificial magic calculation area" and so restricting his capacity to wield magic.
3 - they erased his memories about all this for him to never come to know about this power of his and try to kill Maya to retrieve his power.

This all is just my speculation though. You people dont need to mind me
When was it said that his memories before the experiment were erased?
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Old 2013-07-02, 21:12   Link #5272
Ophis
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Originally Posted by blackwhite67 View Post
When was it said that his memories before the experiment were erased?
I dont remember well when but it was stated that he does not has memories of the time that he was treated as family.
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Old 2013-07-02, 21:18   Link #5273
Rasen
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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
I dont remember well when but it was stated that he does not has memories of the time that he was treated as family.
I think that was implying that he was NEVER treated like family, or if he was, it would have been before he was forming memories (i.e., he was a toddler) Which makes sense, since his BS magic does not satisfy the Yotsuba standard for magic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
Yes, you are correct. The brain cannot be overloaded with information during the lifespan of a human being but in mahouka the issue is different. Every magician has a "magic calculation area" and Tatsuya's was occupied by his two magics, in order to create a second "magic calculation area" they had to erase his strong urges and put this new "artificial magic calculation area" in place of them. We'll have to wait for future explanation from the author about this matter.
I disagree. The Yotsuba did was not "erase" his strong urges, but "overwrote" the portion of his brain that would "create" strong urges. Magic in the Mahouka world cannot affect intangible things, as evidenced by Tatsuya's inability to bring the dead back to life. The rest of his brain was untouched and works just fine, as evidenced by his being able to function like a human being.

My point then, is that the brain may have the ability to use a portion that does not normally handle emotions to create those emotions for Tatsuya.

Last edited by Rasen; 2013-07-02 at 21:42.
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Old 2013-07-02, 21:36   Link #5274
Ophis
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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
I think that was implying that he was NEVER treated like family, or if he was, it would have been before he was forming memories (i.e., he was a toddler) Which makes sense, since his BS magic does not satisfy the Yotsuba standard for magic.
I dont think so, he lost the right to be a heir candidate of Yotsuba and was designated as a Guardian only after that the experiment failed to give him the ability to wield strong magics.
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Old 2013-07-02, 21:46   Link #5275
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I dont think so, he lost the right to be a heir candidate of Yotsuba and was designated as a Guardian only after that the experiment failed to give him the ability to wield strong magics.
Yes, he lost the right after it was conclusively proven he was a "failure with no hope." Before that, he was a "failure with a small hope."

Given that it was a taboo experiment, most of the family would probably not have even considered it. Thus in their eyes, Tatsuya was "just a failure."

There is no reason they would have treated him nicely either before or after the experiment.

Think about it: if the family had EVER treated him with love, his mother probably would not have had to do the risky experiment in the first place. The reason she did it then, is because she and Tatsuya had little-to-nothing to lose.

Last edited by Rasen; 2013-07-02 at 21:57.
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Old 2013-07-02, 22:03   Link #5276
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Yes, he lost the right after it was conclusively proven he was a "failure with no hope." Before that, he was a "failure with a small hope."

Given that it was a taboo experiment, most of the family would probably not have even considered it. Thus in their eyes, Tatsuya was "just a failure."

There is no reason they would have treated him nicely either before or after the experiment.

Think about it: if the family had EVER treated him with love, his mother probably would not have had to do the risky experiment in the first place. The reason she did it then, is because she and Tatsuya had little-to-nothing to lose.
I found it, vol 4 chapter 11

"Even if they were siblings, Tatsuya and Miyuki only started living together three years ago. In other words, they became bona fide siblings only three years ago. Before that fateful summer three years ago, even if they were living under the same roof, they practically never interacted with one another. Their current proximity was something strictly forbidden by their mother just as she denied any normal sibling interaction. Still, that may have been something decided by the Yotsuba Family.
Tatsuya had no intention of sprouting any complaints on that regard. It's not like that function remained within his mental landscape. However, losing all his childhood memories about being treated like a family member was still galling, so saying that he was displeased would be right on the mark.
The adolescent years were accompanied by impulsive anger, tears, falls, mistakes and other embarrassing memories if known by other family members. Yet for Tatsuya, who never enjoyed the luxury of these memories, Miyuki became a "beautiful girl one year younger than he was" by default. Since he was forced to see her in an impartial light from the onset, Tatsuya was well aware that she was a classy, beautiful young girl from the start.
In spite of this, the affection that sprouted forth from the depths of his heart only identified Miyuki as a young sister. The only true emotion that dwelt in the realm of his consciousness was the familial love he bore for his sister.
No memories, only affection. Occasionally, Tatsuya would ruminate that memory loss probably felt akin to this. Of course, he was also aware that he didn't qualify for that condition.
It was an unconditional affection unfettered by memories of any sort.
Precisely because of this, Tatsuya blindly, fiercely and desperately loved Miyuki. His other emotional impulses could not be expressed through fury or hatred. Only his love for Miyuki was truly spontaneous and absolute."

Well, this part states very clearly that his memories were erased.
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Old 2013-07-02, 22:06   Link #5277
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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post

Think about it: if the family had EVER treated him with love, his mother probably would not have had to do the risky experiment in the first place. The reason she did it then, is because she and Tatsuya had little-to-nothing to lose.
I have no idea what the conversation is going on, but ^ is correct. The conversation between Miya and Miyuki basically came down to the fact that Tatsuya was already a failure. Well, since there's nothing to lose, let's do this awful experiment in hope that he *might* be of some use. To Miya, it worked because Tatsuya can now be royally demoted from a potential heir to a guardian in training (at that time). Great, let's now throw him into those awful training facilities for potential Yotsuba guardians (implied where he got all those torture scars).
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Old 2013-07-02, 22:15   Link #5278
Rasen
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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
I found it, vol 4 chapter 11
Good find!

I see why you would read it like that, except that on closer reading it seems to be closer to my interpretation.

Let's start with the most obvious one:
Quote:
No memories, only affection. Occasionally, Tatsuya would ruminate that memory loss probably felt akin to this. Of course, he was also aware that he didn't qualify for that condition.
Right here, it says that he does NOT have memory loss. He has no memories of time spent with Miyuki, BECAUSE
Quote:
Before that fateful summer three years ago, even if they were living under the same roof, they practically never interacted with one another....their mother...denied any normal sibling interaction.
Therefore, this line:
Quote:
However, losing all his childhood memories about being treated like a family member was still galling
Does NOT refer to his memories being erased. Instead, it refers to that he was denied ever making those memories, because it never happened.



Now, regarding what the experiment did:
Quote:
It's not like that function remained within his mental landscape.
The experiment removed the function, not the emotions themselves, which means the magic effected the part of the brain with the function. Which allows for the possibility that a different part of the brain will develop the function.

Last edited by Rasen; 2013-07-02 at 22:48.
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Old 2013-07-02, 22:20   Link #5279
blackwhite67
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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
I found it, vol 4 chapter 11

"Even if they were siblings, Tatsuya and Miyuki only started living together three years ago. In other words, they became bona fide siblings only three years ago. Before that fateful summer three years ago, even if they were living under the same roof, they practically never interacted with one another. Their current proximity was something strictly forbidden by their mother just as she denied any normal sibling interaction. Still, that may have been something decided by the Yotsuba Family.
Tatsuya had no intention of sprouting any complaints on that regard. It's not like that function remained within his mental landscape. However, losing all his childhood memories about being treated like a family member was still galling, so saying that he was displeased would be right on the mark.
The adolescent years were accompanied by impulsive anger, tears, falls, mistakes and other embarrassing memories if known by other family members. Yet for Tatsuya, who never enjoyed the luxury of these memories, Miyuki became a "beautiful girl one year younger than he was" by default. Since he was forced to see her in an impartial light from the onset, Tatsuya was well aware that she was a classy, beautiful young girl from the start.
In spite of this, the affection that sprouted forth from the depths of his heart only identified Miyuki as a young sister. The only true emotion that dwelt in the realm of his consciousness was the familial love he bore for his sister.
No memories, only affection. Occasionally, Tatsuya would ruminate that memory loss probably felt akin to this. Of course, he was also aware that he didn't qualify for that condition.
It was an unconditional affection unfettered by memories of any sort.
Precisely because of this, Tatsuya blindly, fiercely and desperately loved Miyuki. His other emotional impulses could not be expressed through fury or hatred. Only his love for Miyuki was truly spontaneous and absolute."

Well, this part states very clearly that his memories were erased.
Hmm. Then this would mean that Tatsuya has no memories or experience of feeling emotions other than sisterly love.
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Old 2013-07-02, 22:21   Link #5280
hakazee
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Originally Posted by whsie View Post
I have no idea what the conversation is going on, but ^ is correct. The conversation between Miya and Miyuki basically came down to the fact that Tatsuya was already a failure. Well, since there's nothing to lose, let's do this awful experiment in hope that he *might* be of some use. To Miya, it worked because Tatsuya can now be royally demoted from a potential heir to a guardian in training (at that time). Great, let's now throw him into those awful training facilities for potential Yotsuba guardians (implied where he got all those torture scars).
i think they are talking about " artificial magic calculation area ".
the purpose of the experiment is to create a " True Magician "
if the experiment succeed, tatsuya became a " True Magician " and qualify to be Heir Candidate of Yotsuba.
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