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Old 2013-07-04, 11:33   Link #5301
blackwhite67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fujin of shadows View Post
But that is a very good concept...A spell that effects time........Do you guys think that Miyuki's Cocytus is a spell that freezes the sense of time of an individual.........I mean, that is a much more believable and more scientific explanation than freezing the consciousness of a person......
No. Cocytus freezes the soul and it said that the body of the victims wouldn't rot or anything. Whgat do you mean "more scientific"? Cocytus is Outer-systemic magic, which deals with the spirit. That's the whole point.
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Old 2013-07-04, 11:43   Link #5302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fujin of shadows View Post
But that is a very good concept...A spell that effects time........Do you guys think that Miyuki's Cocytus is a spell that freezes the sense of time of an individual.........I mean, that is a much more believable and more scientific explanation than freezing the consciousness of a person......
There is a spell that affects time. Tatsuya's Rewrite can read past "data" from the Information Dimension and use it to repair/heal his target.

Also, Cocytus is explicitly a Mental Interference magic. How would affecting time involve the mind?
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Old 2013-07-04, 13:00   Link #5303
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
There is a spell that affects time. Tatsuya's Rewrite can read past "data" from the Information Dimension and use it to repair/heal his target.

Also, Cocytus is explicitly a Mental Interference magic. How would affecting time involve the mind?
It doesn't affect time, it just remakes the physical object in the form of it's old information from before it was broken, less "reverse time" and more "check the blueprints and rebuild"
I always just assumed that the information body would hang around sometime before degrading/disappearing or that the information body keeps backups of any changes for a fixed amount of time.
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Old 2013-07-04, 14:14   Link #5304
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i always wondered about this but if miyuki used cocytus on tatsuya would his auto regeneration fix it?
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Old 2013-07-04, 14:17   Link #5305
blackwhite67
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Originally Posted by waffler View Post
i always wondered about this but if miyuki used cocytus on tatsuya would his auto regeneration fix it?
Nope. His Regrowth only affects the physical body, it cannot restore his soul.
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Old 2013-07-04, 14:18   Link #5306
waffler
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wow so miyuki could beat tatsuya ?
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Old 2013-07-04, 14:23   Link #5307
blackwhite67
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Originally Posted by waffler View Post
wow so miyuki could beat tatsuya ?
Don't misunderstand. Her magic could beat Tatsuya if she could hit him with it, but thanks to his Elemental Sight and Decomposition he could detect and dismantle her magic before she could finish casting.

Last edited by blackwhite67; 2013-07-04 at 15:43.
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Old 2013-07-04, 15:01   Link #5308
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miyuki never would attack his brother
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Old 2013-07-04, 15:36   Link #5309
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Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
It doesn't affect time, it just remakes the physical object in the form of it's old information from before it was broken, less "reverse time" and more "check the blueprints and rebuild"
I always just assumed that the information body would hang around sometime before degrading/disappearing or that the information body keeps backups of any changes for a fixed amount of time.
^This. If you restore a computer using a backup, did you reverse time, or did you just copy old information into your computer?
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Old 2013-07-04, 15:43   Link #5310
blackwhite67
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^This. If you restore a computer using a backup, did you reverse time, or did you just copy old information into your computer?
The latter.
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Old 2013-07-04, 16:04   Link #5311
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Originally Posted by blackwhite67 View Post
Nope. His Regrowth only affects the physical body, it cannot restore his soul.
Soul??

Miyuki's magic does not affects the soul, it's a magic that affects the BRAIN.

Quote:
Rather than their physical bodies freezing, their minds were frozen.

Outer-Systematic·Mental Interference Magic "Cocytus".

The frozen mind shall never awaken.
The frozen mind cannot comprehend death. There was no way to even inform the flesh that death was upon them.
The bodies bound by their frozen minds could not even die. They could only collapse like a row of statues, forever captured in the postures before the frost came.
It's explicitly said that her magic affects the brain.....
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Old 2013-07-04, 16:50   Link #5312
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'Mind' is not 'Brain'.
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Old 2013-07-04, 17:03   Link #5313
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Originally Posted by nacer666 View Post
'Mind' is not 'Brain'.
...and which part of the body does the thinking?

Miyuki's mother's magic is also called mental interference magic. And it works by interfering with the brain, not some intangible concept like the "mind."

Edit:
For the sake of argument, the word used is "seishin" which can mean "mind, soul, heart; intention, motive;"

I maintain, however, that the magic in the world of MKnR does not work on etheral concepts like "soul," "life." Just as Miyuki's mother can affect memories, so can we with the right application of a laser or knife.

Last edited by Rasen; 2013-07-04 at 17:47.
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Old 2013-07-04, 18:59   Link #5314
blackwhite67
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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
...and which part of the body does the thinking?

Miyuki's mother's magic is also called mental interference magic. And it works by interfering with the brain, not some intangible concept like the "mind."

Edit:
For the sake of argument, the word used is "seishin" which can mean "mind, soul, heart; intention, motive;"

I maintain, however, that the magic in the world of MKnR does not work on etheral concepts like "soul," "life." Just as Miyuki's mother can affect memories, so can we with the right application of a laser or knife.
The mind in this case is not the brain. I believe that Cocytus freezes the mid, which in turn affects the brain. It was never said that Miya's magic worked on the brain and if you're referring to Tatsuya's operation, that was to implant the artificial magic processing zone.

Quote:
The frozen mind cannot comprehend death. There was no way to even inform the flesh that death was upon them.
The bodies bound by their frozen minds could not even die. They could only collapse like a row of statues, forever captured in the postures before the frost came.
In other words, their bodies wouldn't rot. You can't do something like this just by messing with the brain.
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Old 2013-07-04, 19:25   Link #5315
Rasen
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Originally Posted by blackwhite67 View Post
The mind in this case is not the brain. I believe that Cocytus freezes the mid, which in turn affects the brain. It was never said that Miya's magic worked on the brain and if you're referring to Tatsuya's operation, that was to implant the artificial magic processing zone.
And what is the mind, if not a function of the brain? If you were to start lobotomizing a person, you can bet their mind is going to stop working properly.

And I was referring to what Miya did to Maya.

Quote:
In other words, their bodies wouldn't rot. You can't do something like this just by messing with the brain.
Assuming the translation is accurate (which I will because translating takes time), it didn't say anything about rotting. It said they could not die.

At any rate, your theory contradicts itself. If freezing the brain will not affect the body, freezing the MIND sure as fun won't either.


Now, going into the realm of anime pseudo-science, why does cryogenically freezing a person work? Because it stops the body's functions, so that cells neither die nor age. Apoptosis is the body's natural function which dictates cellular death, a sort of built-in kill switch in our bodies. So in the realm of animoo-science, by stopping the brain from functioning and sending out the signal that it's time to die, the cells never get the self-destruct order and so stop dying. Naturally, there's no order either from the brain to grow new cells to replace them either.

ORRRRRRR (and this makes more sense to me), the author was employing dramatic license for the sake of illustrating the scene of people who were frozen without using ice.
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Old 2013-07-04, 19:29   Link #5316
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Cocytus was able to destroy the parasites which are non-physical beings.
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Old 2013-07-04, 19:39   Link #5317
Rasen
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Cocytus was able to destroy the parasites which are non-physical beings.
That part hasn't been translated yet, so I can't say. But how non-physical are they? Non-physical like a disease, or non-physical like a ghost?
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Old 2013-07-04, 19:50   Link #5318
blackwhite67
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That part hasn't been translated yet, so I can't say. But how non-physical are they? Non-physical like a disease, or non-physical like a ghost?
They are pushion information bodies with no physical form. So I'd say the latter.
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Old 2013-07-04, 19:58   Link #5319
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Originally Posted by blackwhite67 View Post
The mind in this case is not the brain. I believe that Cocytus freezes the mid, which in turn affects the brain. It was never said that Miya's magic worked on the brain and if you're referring to Tatsuya's operation, that was to implant the artificial magic processing zone.
Magic in mahouka works on altering the EIDOS of an information body. And so, for what we know, a soul does not has an information body, and if it has, not even Tatsuya can see it to the point of applying magic to it. If people could use magic direct on the soul, Tatsuya could had saved Sakurai and could revive people as well.

So, unless people can actually 'see' the information body of the soul, they CANNOT use magic on it. one exemple very similar would be Tatsuya's 'Decomposition', he's only able to use it to disintegrate everything cause he can 'see' the structure of everything and directly interfere with the structural information.

Quote:
In other words, their bodies wouldn't rot. You can't do something like this just by messing with the brain.
I think that 'Cocytus' puts the target in a kind of coma. Their mind dies but not their body and, with time, they would age and die as well.

Quote:
They are pushion information bodies with no physical form. So I'd say the latter.
The parasites have an information body, that's why magic works on then.
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Old 2013-07-04, 20:06   Link #5320
Rasen
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Originally Posted by blackwhite67 View Post
They are pushion information bodies with no physical form. So I'd say the latter.
Hm. That's a gray area then.

To be detailed, by non-physical existence, I was referring to something as intangible as "life," which even Tatsuya's Regrowth can't affect. In contrast, a concept like the "mind," what is that supposed to be? I can't recall any school of thought that has separated the "mind" from the electrical and chemical functions of the brain. (Depending on the shape of certain parts of the brain, a person might have psychopathic tendencies for instance.)

In the MKnR world, Pushion and eidos are observable particles. Like how we can't see in the infrared spectrum, but the electromagnetic waves/photos still exist, and can be interfered with using physical objects. (A book can block light, for instance)

Edit:
Taking what Ophis said about Information Bodies works too. The magic would rewrite/change the information body related to the structure of the brain and its contents, and the brain and contents change accordingly.
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