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Old 2013-07-04, 23:10   Link #5341
Rasen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackwhite67 View Post
But such a long and complicated process is not something any magician can do. Recall volume 7, where Honoka was projecting an image of the sky to prevent detection by the enemy when they were moving by helicopter.

It took all her focus to do that. Manipulating millions of electrical impulses on the fly is something else altogether.

I also pointed out that manipulating the mind through the brain would require a complete knowledge of the brain, which is unknown.
Again, I point out Honoka is doing something that is absolutely foreign to our minds. Miyuki is doing something that comes completely naturally to the brain.

Quote:
Maybe you didn't catch my edit to my previous post about External magic is not being any physical phenomena.
Maybe you didn't catch my post (#5329) about "I'm willing to compromise if instead of soul, you go with Information Body (which the series bases its entire magic system on), and Cocytus is something like write-protecting the Information Body."
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Old 2013-07-04, 23:19   Link #5342
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Originally Posted by blackwhite67 View Post
I think the systemic magic and all are categorizations for Modern Magic. Ancient Magic preceded Modern Magic so I don't know if those labels apply.

Also, let's say you're right and that Cocytus and all other mental-interference magic affects the brain and not the spirit or soul. Do you realize the implications of that? That would mean that every time a magician used mental-interference magic they manipulated the brain, or specifically the electrical impulses from cell to cell. To achieve the desired affect, they would have to stop certain signals and stimulate other signals. That is impossible and way too complex for any magician to do and don't forget that to do something like that would require a complete knowledge of the brain. How it works, why it works, which areas are responsible for what, and so on. This knowledge is not present in real life, or for that matter, the MKnR universe.
so you are saying that the knowledge of how the soul works and how to manipulate them is present in real life? please, explain to me how the soul works and what the soul does cause I'm lost here.

Also, the magicians that are born with mental interference magic, are only capable of doing one thing to the brain. alter mental functions, hypnose, freeze the mind, create illusions. All they know to do is interfere with a specific and small part of the brain. If you read "Untouchable" from vol 8 you will understand how mental interference magic works

Quote:
In the end, this, which is the manipulation of electrical signals, is just repetitive, systemic magic.

Outer/External systemic magic is by definition outside systemic type-magic. Remember the quote before.
Man, not a single magic in the systemic type-magic is capable of manipulating electrical signals from the brain.

Quote:
So Cocytus and ever other External systemic magic is NOT "Speed, Weight", "Movement, Vibration", "Converge, Dissipate", and "Absorb, Disperse." In other words, they do not have physical effects.
Systemic Magic - is the system that categorizes the basic types of magic, the magics that EVERY magician is capable of using.

External systemic magic - is categorized this way cause it's not a type o magic you can learn through studies. You need to be born with the capability of using this type o magic. That's why it's called external.

Quote:
The level of complexity of typical magic shown here is nothing compared to what I just described. The systemic magic demonstrated in the novel are around ten processes or so long. Sometimes more. However, what I described easily constitutes millions of processes. There are millions if not billions of electrical impulses going through our brains every moment.
You're very wrong here. Every one of the 8 systemic magic is 1 process. The problem is that you need to use more than one to build up a useful magic. Tatsuya explains this on vol2, please read it again.
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Last edited by Ophis; 2013-07-04 at 23:35.
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Old 2013-07-05, 00:06   Link #5343
blackwhite67
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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
Again, I point out Honoka is doing something that is absolutely foreign to our minds. Miyuki is doing something that comes completely naturally to the brain.
It's not an argument of whether it's natural. It's about quantity. Casting a spell is like solving a math problem. To affect the brain would be like solving a million of them. How do you explain the fact that the soldiers fell over frozen in the postures when they were hit with Cocytus? Even if you take control of the brain, you can't explain this through scientific means.

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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
so you are saying that the knowledge of how the soul works and how to manipulate them is present in real life? please, explain to me how the soul works and what the soul does cause I'm lost here.
No other magician besides Tatsuya can see magic taking effect in the Eidos. When magicians cast mental interference magic, all they really do is set the target and sometimes the duration if that option is available. So knowledge of the soul is not necessary.

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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
Also, the magicians that are born with mental interference magic, are only capable of doing one thing to the brain. alter mental functions, hypnose, freeze the mind, create illusions. All they know to do is interfere with a specific and small part of the brain. If you read "Untouchable" from vol 8 you will understand how mental interference magic works
Not all mental interference magic is innate. Honoka used Evil Eye in arc 6 against several people.

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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
Man, not a single magic in the systemic type-magic is capable of manipulating electrical signals from the brain.
There is magic to manipulate electricity. I believe they would fall under the movement/vibration type.

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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
Systemic Magic - is the system that categorizes the basic types of magic, the magics that EVERY magician is capable of using.
How does this relate to my argument??

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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
External systemic magic - is categorized this way cause it's not a type o magic you can learn through studies. You need to be born with the capability of using this type o magic. That's why it's called external.
Quote:
These types of magic are just referred to as the External Systematic Magic since they dont belong to any type of system.
That's an argument you're going to have to take up with the author. Besides, Tatsuya's Decomposition is systemic.

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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
You're very wrong here. Every one of the 8 systemic magic is 1 process. The problem is that you need to use more than one to build up a useful magic. Tatsuya explains this on vol2, please read it again.
You misunderstood. When I said magic, I was talking about spells.

Quote:
"It's true; for single systems, it's faster to directly construct the Magic Sequence.
This can only be used for magics with few processes. For me, five processes is my limit."
The processes in modern magic had two uses: the steps that lead to magic invocation and the components for magic used in phenomena rewriting.
The "five processes in magic" that Tatsuya mentioned here refers to when five magic executions combine to change something.
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Old 2013-07-05, 03:07   Link #5344
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I'm thinking if someone could control psions inside humans body... then all sudden it is forcefully expelled inside out.
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Old 2013-07-05, 03:08   Link #5345
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After catching up on the last, what, 10 pages, I've got the following comments.

- External Systematic Magic is called External Systematic Magic because the magic doesn't fit in a specific system. They flat out tell you this in Volume 1, chapter 5, when Tatsuya asks about Azusayumi.

- Systematic Magic (i.e. not Non-Systematic, External Systematic, or Extrasensory Systematic) is called Systematic Magic because it affects Eidos, either directly or (in the case of Cardinal Code magic) indirectly. Again, this is another volume 1 explanation.

(Systemic was also an Engrish mistranslation, as it doesn't mean the same thing as Systematic.)

- Calling magic "innate" is simply saying that the person has natural talent in bringing the magic out. It does not mean that the magic cannot be used by other Magicians, but that the technology level of the story does not necessarily give them the capability to duplicate it. Otherwise, by that logic, Tatsuya could not have discovered how to put together Flying-Type Magic.

- Regular Systematic Magic categorizes magic by what it does, not by effects (like creating electricity). So by putting magic that can create electricity separate from magic that fiddles with people's minds, the author is telling you that the magic that causes the electricity (Dispersal Magic) doesn't work the same way as magic that fiddles with people's minds. If it was only one specific type of magic that causes one specific effect, you couldn't have multiple parts of Systematic Magic (Movement/Vibration and Speed) that have effects that deal with cold and heat, so this doesn't disprove how Mental Magic gets things done.

- "Spirit" has multiple definitions in English. In the context of the series, if you're talking about mental magic, say "Mind." If you're talking about Mikihiko's Pushion congregation, say "Spirit." They've specifically defined "Spirit Magic" as Mikihiko's Pushion congregations in Volume 3, Chapter 1, and classified it as External Systematic Magic as well, so using "Spirit" in any other context (like Mental Magic) is a flat out mistranslation or demonstrates misunderstanding on the person using it in that context. Cocytus has absolutely nothing to do with Mikihiko's Spirit magic.

- Outer and External are used interchangeably because one of the characters for "External" means "Outside." It would be like saying "I want to eat break, fast" instead of "I want to eat breakfast."

- Individual Ancient Magic spells can be categorized in the Modern Magic Systematic categories. They just don't use the same rules as Modern Magic because they're not using CADs, and you would need someone on the level of Tatsuya to convert their magic into a CAD-usable format.
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Old 2013-07-05, 05:36   Link #5346
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Originally Posted by blackwhite67 View Post
No other magician besides Tatsuya can see magic taking effect in the Eidos. When magicians cast mental interference magic, all they really do is set the target and sometimes the duration if that option is available. So knowledge of the soul is not necessary.
is not necessary? If it was not necessary then Tatsuya's Regrowth would works on the soul as well. You need at least 'see' the infomation body to use magic on it. You're not making sense here, you did not even aswer my question and said they only need to think "go magic and erase his emotions from his soul" or "go magic and paralyze his soul"????? Please, think a little bit about what you are saying.


Quote:
Not all mental interference magic is innate. Honoka used Evil Eye in arc 6 against several people.
At least quote this part where she uses Evil Eye.

Quote:
There is magic to manipulate electricity. I believe they would fall under the movement/vibration type.
And since when electricity is the same thing as the electric signals of the brain?


Quote:
How does this relate to my argument??
You dont seem to understand what Systematic and what External magic are. So Im just explaining this to you.



Quote:
That's an argument you're going to have to take up with the author. Besides, Tatsuya's Decomposition is systemic.
Tatsuya's decomposition is NON SYSTEMATIC, for god sake. Did you actually read the novel?
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Old 2013-07-05, 06:32   Link #5347
Rava
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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
[...]
Tatsuya's decomposition is NON SYSTEMATIC, for god sake. Did you actually read the novel?
Tatsuya's BS Decomposition magic as a whole has both Systematic and Non-Systematic applications. Mist Dispersal obliterates objects by essentially decomposing their Eidos and is a part of Tatsuya's Decomposition magic -- this would not be possible if Tatsuya's Decomposition magic didn't not cover Systematic Magic. (So was his using Decomposition magic to break down his sweat when waiting for Mayumi.)
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Old 2013-07-05, 07:34   Link #5348
Rasen
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Originally Posted by blackwhite67 View Post
It's not an argument of whether it's natural. It's about quantity. Casting a spell is like solving a math problem. To affect the brain would be like solving a million of them. How do you explain the fact that the soldiers fell over frozen in the postures when they were hit with Cocytus? Even if you take control of the brain, you can't explain this through scientific means.
First, if it's a question about quantity, I believe the author has gushed time and again about Miyuki's calculation ability. We can probably take quantity right off the table.

Second, the nature of Cocytus' "math" problem is a lot simpler than something like memory manipulation. If we were to treat this as a programming problem:

If the given area of the brain handles sensory input, turn "off"
Add an infinite loop to ALL signals being output from the brain, to repeat the signal they were sending at the time of the spell casting. She doesn't have to care about what any individual signal does, she can just issue a blanket order.

Since the signals are not allowed to change, this would be effectively freezing them, including their positions. All the signals devoted to say, raising an arm, would be infinitely repeating, thus keeping the arm in place.

I've already provided pseudo-science explanations for the stuck bodies, the lack of dying. You've either missed them or chosen to ignore them, so I'm not going to bother retyping them.

At any rate, I've already said I'll compromise as far as "Information Body." (Which you have also missed or ignored, twice now.) If you're going to keep harping on souls and minds that exist outside the body, I'm going to point out you can't explain those at ALL. Logic need not apply, only storytelling. To quote your earlier comment:

Quote:
She froze their spiritual bodies, soul, mind. Whatever you want to call it and it had an effect on their physical bodies that you read here. It's not impossible to believe. It's a common assumption that affecting the soul or whatnot will have effects on the physical body and I sure as hell do know that the effect described here defies any sort of scientific explanation.
I asked you before, and I'll ask you again, it's a common assumption WHERE? This isn't Star Wars.

Last edited by Rasen; 2013-07-05 at 09:47.
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Old 2013-07-05, 07:40   Link #5349
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Quote:
Tatsuya's decomposition is NON SYSTEMATIC, for god sake. Did you actually read the novel?
I never seem to remember any phrase that says that.. Mind telling me where is it (or where do you think the author tell us, I'll check on it later)? I'm pretty interested with this since my friend had asked me similar question whether his decomposition is systematic or not long ago.
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Old 2013-07-05, 08:17   Link #5350
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Originally Posted by XFire View Post
The system of magic in this series makes this pointless. Tatsuya has the ability to cause nuclear explosions at will. Lina has the ability to fire a localized solar flare. At full power their magic is one-hit kill, no exceptions.

Actually, it's one-hit two kill (at least) since using Lina's magic at full power would kill her and Tatsuya needs a satellite to increase his range to the point he doesn't vaporize himself.

The attack magic so far exceeds the defensive capabilities of the characters that comparing strengths has no meaning.
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Originally Posted by blackwhite67 View Post
Tatsuya would also need Trident to do that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rava View Post
Tatsuya's BS Decomposition magic as a whole has both Systematic and Non-Systematic applications. Mist Dispersal obliterates objects by essentially decomposing their Eidos and is a part of Tatsuya's Decomposition magic -- this would not be possible if Tatsuya's Decomposition magic didn't not cover Systematic Magic. (So was his using Decomposition magic to break down his sweat when waiting for Mayumi.)
No, Mist Dispersal is a magic that uses psion to break the structure of information bodies. The systematic magics are magics that alter the structure, Tatsuya was unable to use systematic magics since he was born. so this is a bona fide non-systematic magic.
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Old 2013-07-05, 08:39   Link #5351
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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
No, Mist Dispersal is a magic that uses psion to break the structure of information bodies. The systematic magics are magics that alter the structure, Tatsuya was unable to use systematic magics since he was born. so this is a bona fide non-systematic magic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volume 3, Chapter 4
Tatsuya's intrinsic magic "Dissolution", in terms of categorization belongs to a derivative of Separation Magic. It was a combination of "Gather", "Disperse", "Absorb", and "Release", but to be honest, "Release" probably made up the highest percentage.
I'm sure there's a slight translation error with the names, but no matter how you look at it, it completely contradicts your conclusion.
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Old 2013-07-05, 09:15   Link #5352
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Honestly, I don't think the author thought through his magic system completely.

For instance, he devotes significant time and effort to emphasize the problem with interference and overwriting, but then mysteriously, "Loop Cast" seems to completely bypass those problems.
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Old 2013-07-05, 09:48   Link #5353
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^ I disagree. It's very well thought out actually. The simple way I think of it is that magic is like a "new system of physics" that are based on fundamental laws regarding the systematic systems. Anything that is wildly outside of it is considered non-systematic.

Interference Strength, Overwriting and the Phenomenon Rewriting Ability (among other things) I find most easily by thinking of them as radiowaves.

Remember -- do not think of magic "creating a fireball" -- instead you think of the magic influencing molecule vibration, build-up of oxygen atoms and then applying motion to it, all via their magical influence.
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Old 2013-07-05, 10:11   Link #5354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
Honestly, I don't think the author thought through his magic system completely.

For instance, he devotes significant time and effort to emphasize the problem with interference and overwriting, but then mysteriously, "Loop Cast" seems to completely bypass those problems.
i fail to see inconsistency ...

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Originally Posted by willx View Post
Remember -- do not think of magic "creating a fireball" -- instead you think of the magic influencing molecule vibration, build-up of oxygen atoms and then applying motion to it, all via their magical influence.
and this is pretty smart move ... it creates most of theory as well as creates set of rules, as long as you move withing them you won't contradict yourself ... novel have a GREAT deal of reference to physics as well as metaphysical tradition and other belief systems in that sense
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Old 2013-07-05, 10:20   Link #5355
Rasen
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
^ I disagree. It's very well thought out actually. The simple way I think of it is that magic is like a "new system of physics" that are based on fundamental laws regarding the systematic systems. Anything that is wildly outside of it is considered non-systematic.

Interference Strength, Overwriting and the Phenomenon Rewriting Ability (among other things) I find most easily by thinking of them as radiowaves.

Remember -- do not think of magic "creating a fireball" -- instead you think of the magic influencing molecule vibration, build-up of oxygen atoms and then applying motion to it, all via their magical influence.
I don't have any problems with THOSE. The rules the author set up are fine, at least within the Inner Systemic system. The Outer Systemic spells seem more like to take a dump on any sort of boundaries.

But to the more immediate example, my problem lies with Tatsuya's Loop Cast. As a system that allows the rapid casting of the exact same spell, each successive cast should encounter increasing interference from the spells already in place.

Tatsuya at least, can supposedly bypass this with his ability to manipulate variables and target locations on the fly, but he's unusually exceptional in that area. Everyone else should be stuck at the level of "exact same spell" each time.

So when he has his flying device, the target, the magician, is the one thing that absolutely cannot change, so even if the other variables change, Loop Cast shouldn't be able to avoid running into increasingly greater interference. Same goes for their Proposed Thermonuclear device.

As far as the books have discussed so far, the only way to get rid of the remnant psions is to wait for them to dissipate or blast them away using something like Mayumi's spells or Tatsuya's Gram Dispersal. And again, these two people are unusual in their abilities to do so. Everyone else should be stuck.
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Old 2013-07-05, 10:24   Link #5356
Ophis
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Originally Posted by Rava View Post
I'm sure there's a slight translation error with the names, but no matter how you look at it, it completely contradicts your conclusion.
Did you get that from the web novel summaries?

According to your quote, 'Decomposition' is a mix of 4 systematic magics. Tatsuya was born without the capacity of wield any magic. If he could use 4 magics to create one then there would be no meaning in put in him a artificial magic calculation area.

Your statement contradicts with Tatsuya's inability to use normal magic.
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Old 2013-07-05, 10:31   Link #5357
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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
Did you get that from the web novel summaries?

According to your quote, 'Decomposition' is a mix of 4 systematic magics. Tatsuya was born without the capacity of wield any magic. If he could use 4 magics to create one then there would be no meaning in put in him a artificial magic calculation area.

Your statement contradicts with Tatsuya's inability to use normal magic.
I seem to recall that quote from the translated novels myself.

As for Tatsuya, it's not that he had the inability to use magic, it's just that he could only use Decomposition and Regrowth, which appear to be so complicated his magic calculation area could not handle anything else. (For example, we can move our arms and legs, but can you intellectually break down each individual muscle contraction?)

The artificial area that was created gives him a little extra space to do regular calculations, but it's so gimped that he can only handle a couple processes, and it's slower than average.

I found this in volume 2:

Quote:
Tatsuya was only able to freely manipulate two magics. The first was "Decomposition", which was able to render assault rifles into psions.
...Relying on his sensory ability, his magic was able to disassemble not just Magic Sequences, but Activation Sequences as well. It was a side effect from a wholly different magic.
Identify the design, decompose the design.
As long as it's an object, he could translate the physical object into signals, and then rewrite or erase the base design at his leisure.
If it was an Information Body, then he could directly disassemble the design.
This was one of the most difficult magics imaginable, able to directly interfere with the design information.
And it was because he was born with such an ability, that Tatsuya was unable to use other magics.
He was only able to use imitation and theoretical magic.
His Magic Calculation Area was completely dominated by those two highly difficult magics.
And vol 8 has this:

Quote:
"From the time he was born, Tatsuya could use only two types of ‘magic’. Decomposition of Eidos, and reconstruction of Information Bodies. Within the concept of these two categories Tatsuya has devised a variety of techniques he can use, but however far you take them, with just those two, it is impossible to alter Information Bodies as a true magician should."

Her eyes simply stared into nothingness.

"Magic are the techniques which modify Information bodies, and thus change phenomena. However trivial the change is, to be able to make the change at all is magic. But Tatsuya is unable to do that. All he can do is break an Information Body down, and recreate it back in an earlier state. That is not magic in its truest sense. That child, who was born without the talent to use magic in the true sense of the term in altering Information Bodies, is unquestionably a defective magician."
In summary, the only reason Tatsuya is considered a failure is because the Yotsuba believe the basic definition of a magician is to be able to alter and change Information Bodies.

Last edited by Rasen; 2013-07-05 at 10:41.
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Old 2013-07-05, 10:41   Link #5358
willx
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Rasen - I think you're misunderstanding something about Loop Cast and rampaging magic sequences:

From V3C4 - the truck flying towards the bus:

Spoiler for Explanation #1:


From V3C1 - on explaining why original theories on magic flight don't work
Spoiler for Explaination #2:


From V3C2 - explaining how the loop cast enables flight:
Spoiler for Explanation #3:


What the Loop Cast system appears to do is to create numerous activation sequences one after another that sits in the Magic Calculation Area of a Magician's mind .. which are then translated one by one in rapid succession into magic sequences that each have a "definitive end"

So "up 3 cm, forward 2, begin acceleration 2m/s, STOP" then instantaneously "up 4cm, forward 2, slow accceleration to 1m/s, STOP", etc.
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Old 2013-07-05, 10:51   Link #5359
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Originally Posted by willx View Post
Rasen - I think you're misunderstanding something about Loop Cast:

From V3C4 - the truck flying towards the bus:



From V3C1 - on explaining why original theories on magic flight don't work


What the Loop Cast system appears to do is to create numerous activation sequences one after another that sits in the Magic Calculation Area of a Magician's mind .. which are then translated one by one in rapid succession into magic sequences that each have a "definitive end"

From V3C2 on explaining how the loop cast enables flight:


So "up 3 cm, forward 2, begin acceleration 2m/s, STOP" then instantaneously "up 4cm, forward 2, slow accceleration to 1m/s, STOP", etc.

I've read those explanations, but they're still unsatisfactory. For instance, if it was merely a problem of setting the ending condition sooner, then they should have achieved flying LONG before the novels started. Look at how fast magicians can create and process new spells especially with CADs: they're on the order of milliseconds with GENERAL CADs. They wouldn't even have time to fall. Look at the English experiment. They're so fast that they even had time to insert another spell (the one that erases the effects of the first one) inbetween the two flying spells. Something as simple as setting a clear stop condition shouldn't even require Loop Cast, if spells that have hit STOP immediately dissipate.

The logical explanation then is that both "finished" and "unfinished" spells leave a mess of psions or what have you on the information body that needs time to dissipate. Otherwise, this isn't even close to what should be called "Great Mystery of Systemic Magic." Maybe this would have been a problem before the invention of CADs, but after it would have just been a parlor trick. In fact, I distinctly recall that the first time I read the words "magic with an unfinished condition," the idea "set an ending condition" came to mind as a solution. And I bet you had the same experience too.

Also, I question if the multiple activations/copies park in the Magician's mind. That implies then, that the magician's mind can handle that many processes. As I recall, Loop Cast and Trident were invented by Tatsuya for the very specific reason that his artificial calculation area could not hold that much, so to speak.

Last edited by Rasen; 2013-07-05 at 11:38.
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Old 2013-07-05, 12:26   Link #5360
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Originally Posted by Ophis View Post
is not necessary? If it was not necessary then Tatsuya's Regrowth would works on the soul as well. You need at least 'see' the infomation body to use magic on it. You're not making sense here, you did not even aswer my question and said they only need to think "go magic and erase his emotions from his soul" or "go magic and paralyze his soul"????? Please, think a little bit about what you are saying.


Tatsuya's Regrowth only affects the target's structural information. That means it only affects there physical body.

At least quote this part where she uses Evil Eye.

Quote:
As soon as Tatsuya steps onto the pavement near the cemetery, he perceives many gazes, both human and non-human. The officers monitoring Tatsuya and his group consisted of 10 skilled people who always acted in a group of 10, no matter how difficult the task. Since it was a simple task, they were somewhat off guard. One was carrying a sensor which would alert him to any use of magic by Tatsuya and those with him. However, as soon as the alarm sounds, he is knocked out by a flash of light. Honoka had used Evil Eye, far more effectively than the leader of Blanche, and against four people at the same time. Tatsuya was impressed, but worried since it was a mental interference magic which was normally restricted. If they were caught by the real police, it would become a much
larger problem.


And since when electricity is the same thing as the electric signals of the brain?

How are they not? Electricity is electricity.

Tatsuya's decomposition is NON SYSTEMATIC, for god sake. Did you actually read the novel?
Did you?

Quote:
Another is a magic that does not aim to alter phenomena by temporarily rewriting the body of information associated with phenomena, "Eidos", but aims to control the Psion itself; this is known as Non-Systematic Magic.
By this definition, and Tatsuya also points this out later, all magic is non-systematic since they all require some level of psion manipulation. Although I don't know if this also applies to Ancient Magic.

Quote:
Tatsuya's intrinsic magic "Dissolution", in terms of categorization belongs to a derivative of Separation Magic. It was a combination of "Gather", "Disperse", "Absorb", and "Release", but to be honest, "Release" probably made up the highest percentage.
You seem to be confusing Gram Demolition with Decomposition. Gram Demolition is a cannonball of psions used to destroy magic sequences and activation sequences. It's impossible to cause any sort of phenomena change with just a mass of psions. Decomposition, as described here, is systematic magic. Like every other magic, it uses psions, but it does not just blast away the structural information of the target with excessive psions. In fact, the psion cost fro Decomposition is probably the same as any other spell.


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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
First, if it's a question about quantity, I believe the author has gushed time and again about Miyuki's calculation ability. We can probably take quantity right off the table.

Second, the nature of Cocytus' "math" problem is a lot simpler than something like memory manipulation. If we were to treat this as a programming problem:

If the given area of the brain handles sensory input, turn "off"
Add an infinite loop to ALL signals being output from the brain, to repeat the signal they were sending at the time of the spell casting. She doesn't have to care about what any individual signal does, she can just issue a blanket order.

Since the signals are not allowed to change, this would be effectively freezing them, including their positions. All the signals devoted to say, raising an arm, would be infinitely repeating, thus keeping the arm in place.

I've already provided pseudo-science explanations for the stuck bodies, the lack of dying. You've either missed them or chosen to ignore them, so I'm not going to bother retyping them.

At any rate, I've already said I'll compromise as far as "Information Body." (Which you have also missed or ignored, twice now.) If you're going to keep harping on souls and minds that exist outside the body, I'm going to point out you can't explain those at ALL. Logic need not apply, only storytelling. To quote your earlier comment:

I asked you before, and I'll ask you again, it's a common assumption WHERE? This isn't Star Wars.
Don't you think that the physical body and soul are linked? If it's true, then wouldn't affecting one have an effect on the other?

If you're talking about another universe, then I take mine from the Type-Moon universe.

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Kirei is a Spiritual doctor that heals through a spiritual medium, as in healing through the soul rather than the flesh.
There's also Tatsuya's Regrowth. I'm assuming you understand how it works and its effects. Recall that even though he restored Kirihara's and Isori's bodies to the state before they were shot, they still possessed their memories of being shot. In real life, the mechanics of memory, such as storage, are still not fully understood, but this makes it clear that, in the MKnR universe, memory is not exactly stored in the brain. Miya possessed mental interference magic that could manipulate memories. This proves that mental-interference magic works on the soul.
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