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Old 2012-04-26, 18:23   Link #641
EnigmaticAxiom
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Originally Posted by Aquileia View Post
This.

Seriously applauding the translators for this novel since its hard to translate complex explanations from japanese to english and it takes one hell of a time.
They're definitely a pain in the ass to read, especially since I'm stuck using machine translation. But because the explanations are so in depth, I can actually be decently sure my understanding is accurate when I'm done. One of the reasons I can actually read this light novel with a machine translation is because it is such a detailed series.
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Old 2012-04-26, 20:47   Link #642
larethian
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Another thing about this novel is due to the way the lines are structured compared to other series. The author has a tendency to make relatively long sentences with the most important clause, the subject clause or the topic clause, at the back. In other words, one needs a large brain buffer to store the supporting clauses before one gets the key point of the sentence. I'm not sure about the other translated chapters, but for v1 chapter 1, I've pretty much rephrased and rearranged the clauses and content the way it's done in English, so you guys may not feel it at all. In English, because the key actors are at the front, and the key action verbs also appear rather early, somehow, it seems like we don't need to keep them in our brain's RAM, while in Japanese, it seems like we need to hold all the supporting clauses in our mind until we reach that key idea. And this series really go to the extreme in doing it. It's thus pretty much impossible for me to speed-read without getting lost on what's happening. Or maybe I just suck.
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Old 2012-04-26, 21:04   Link #643
kuroishinigami
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I actually have more trouble reading Kamachi-sensei work than this novel lol. Probably because kamachi-sensei tend to use more difficult word when explaining the terminology while this novel use simple analogy when explaining the terminology.

Last edited by kuroishinigami; 2012-04-26 at 21:18.
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Old 2012-04-26, 21:55   Link #644
dragon1412
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Originally Posted by larethian View Post
Another thing about this novel is due to the way the lines are structured compared to other series. The author has a tendency to make relatively long sentences with the most important clause, the subject clause or the topic clause, at the back. In other words, one needs a large brain buffer to store the supporting clauses before one gets the key point of the sentence. I'm not sure about the other translated chapters, but for v1 chapter 1, I've pretty much rephrased and rearranged the clauses and content the way it's done in English, so you guys may not feel it at all. In English, because the key actors are at the front, and the key action verbs also appear rather early, somehow, it seems like we don't need to keep them in our brain's RAM, while in Japanese, it seems like we need to hold all the supporting clauses in our mind until we reach that key idea. And this series really go to the extreme in doing it. It's thus pretty much impossible for me to speed-read without getting lost on what's happening. Or maybe I just suck.
you arent suck, the key to speed-read is to read only the key words and understand the general sentences in jpnese but the author here, as you said, tend to use long sentences and support clause which let the key words come in later, i dont know how japanese feel about it but i sometimes have to re-read a sentences 2-3 times to understand what he mean.
In Kamachi-sensei work, the hard point is the terminology which extremely hard to figure out but Kamachi-sensei use relatively simple sentences, if you have a good reference and katakana level, Kamachi-sensei is actually quite pleased to read.
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Old 2012-04-26, 22:22   Link #645
larethian
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Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
I actually have more trouble reading Kamachi-sensei work than this novel lol. Probably because kamachi-sensei tend to use more difficult word when explaining the terminology while this novel use simple analogy when explaining the terminology.
I'm not talking about the difficulty of individual words, but the sentence structure and the need to buffer the clauses in my brain, before my interpreter kicks in to start making sense of them. There are also many times when multiple lines of dialogue where the speakers were withheld and then named and described simultaneously after the several lines of dialogue. Of course, it can be easy to tell at times, but not so straightforward at others. The point is, I need to buffer them longer.

And I'm not really sure what you mean by explaining terminology. I don't find a lot of complex explanations of mechanics in Index, except for the scientific parts maybe (yeah, those killed me too ). For mahouka, the mechanics are more or less all connected and spread across novels. Of course, the detailed explanations helped a lot if I take the time to read them normally (in fact, I have to make notes ). And overall, I still find Index's sentence structures to be simpler, overall that is, and comparatively (and I agree that some of the words are really tough). There are also many times when dialogue gets interrupted by heap loads of background info before resuming the dialogue again. When I'm forced to bookmark during then, I completely lose track when I come back to it again.

What I'm trying to say is that it's pretty much impossible for me to speed-read this series, something I do a lot. I've taken classes on speed-reading a long time ago. Even though it's for English, I had learned to adapt some of my skills to Japanese gradually. This series kept forcing me to hold my reins, to read it word by word, clause by clause, and sentence by sentence.

Anyway, that's just reading. Translation is totally another mind-blowing story altogether. I find my English composition and word choice skills tested a lot more than anywhere else...... It sucks to only be able to translate 3 or less pages an hour, sometimes even just 1 page in an hour on some sections.

EDIT:
@dragon1412
Many Japanese readers actually have the same problem with the hard-to-read detailed explanations. Let me just quote some of the 2ch comments for you (in fact, some considered his level of details to be needless and bad, though I don't necessary agree to some of the comments):

Quote:
70 :イラストに騙された名無しさん:2012/03/22(木) 07:06:12.75 ID:5tRomX0u
正直あんまアニメ化して欲しいとは思わないなぁ
前スレかどっかでも書かれてたけど
キャラのセリフでも世界観や魔法の説明、紹介する文章が多いし
九校戦以降は別として、それまでは結構淡々としているから凄い地味な出来になると思う
Quote:
71 :イラストに騙された名無しさん:2012/03/22(木) 07:17:17.33 ID:022eD4Px
魔法は大枠の説明だけで個別の魔法に関しては結構はしょってもいけるような気がするけどなあ
引き金を引くと発動する、掌をかざして魔法式を吹き飛ばす
事象とそれによって引き起こされた結果のみでも伝わるキガス
Quote:
229 :イラストに騙された名無しさん:2012/04/03(火) 01:07:37.66 ID:Ayb1W9MZ
3巻まで読んだんだけどこの先おもしろくなるの?
早くも設定が破たんしてきてるし、それでいて特に独創性も見当たらないんだけど
そして専門用語が多すぎて読みにくい
禁書の悪い部分だけ抜き取ったような感じ
Quote:
362 :イラストに騙された名無しさん:2012/04/12(木) 21:33:29.90 ID:mh8qwGWg
>>356
端的に言えば、何の説明や台詞でも一言(一文)多いな。個性と言うには悪癖な印象の方が強い。
改修の行われている小説版でも、それはもう膨大な量の意味の無い補足が多すぎる。
1巻~4巻まででも目に付く所はあったけど、
読んでいてこういう書き方好きなのねー程度だったけど、今回の5巻は特に酷い。
括弧で心情を表現する事が多いけど、5巻は括弧無しの意味無し文が多すぎて・・・
それに短編集とはいえ、なんでサイドストーリーの主役がこいつ等なんだって謎な人選。
3高の王子とホモの話は良いとしても、後のが要らなすぎる。レオとかマリとかもっと他の対象があるだろうに 。
1巻~4巻は凄い好みだけど、5巻は無いわ。
Quote:
518 :イラストに騙された名無しさん:2012/04/16(月) 21:24:52.56 ID:OVHAZM1p
近未来日本にアレンジを加えた独自世界観とはいえ物語的に必要性の低い説明も多いからな
伏線かどうかが分かりにくいのが難点だわ

逆に無駄な説明を挟むことによって本当の伏線を隠しているともいえるが
Quote:
744 :イラストに騙された名無しさん:2012/04/25(水) 23:52:04.54 ID:jL5tPTjl
>>739
ヒロインがブヒれる
正直文章は説明がくどくて読みにくい
Quote:
745 :イラストに騙された名無しさん:2012/04/25(水) 23:55:44.55 ID:Uq4C030g
>>742
あ、それ何か分かります。説明が多すぎるとも思うとともにその部分も含めてこの作品が好きだな と

>>739
Web版から読んでいますが、主人公最強、実妹とのラブコメってどうなの!?
世界観を一から作っているので説明多いよ、ちょっとおかしなところもあるんじゃない!?
とか色々おもってもいますが、簡単に続きが気になる
はやく2年生編をっ
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Last edited by larethian; 2012-04-26 at 23:08.
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Old 2012-04-26, 22:56   Link #646
kuroishinigami
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The sentence on this novel is indeed longer, but you know when in index they start to blabber away how magic or esper power works? Most of the time kamachi sensei uses some hard words instead of simple analogy(especially when explaining esper power) and it took me a long time to read through that part so I cant speed-read index novel.
This novel on the other hand, although the author use longer sentence, the analogies makes understanding the explanation much easier and I can read through the novel much faster than index. As for structures and buffering, I guess I'm used to it already from when I learn English and all those engineering case studies back then so I never have that problem when reading this novel lol. And just like lare said, this is just for reading. Translating is another matter since it will look very awkward in English if the translator doesn't restructure the long sentences due to the differences in Japanese and English sentence structure.
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Old 2012-04-26, 23:14   Link #647
larethian
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^ yes, but that's what's cool about Index, and I find the quantity to be much less (comparing volume to volume). Who knows how big the setting and how much more terms we will have by the time this series reaches volume 20 .

I think comment 229 on the 9th page of Mahouka's 2ch thread best sum up my feeling:

そして専門用語が多すぎて読みにくい
禁書の悪い部分だけ抜き取ったような感じ
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Old 2012-04-26, 23:31   Link #648
kuroishinigami
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Originally Posted by larethian View Post
^ yes, but that's what's cool about Index, and I find the quantity to be much less (comparing volume to volume). Who knows how big the setting and how much more terms we will have by the time this series reaches volume 20 .

I think comment 229 on the 9th page of Mahouka's 2ch thread best sum up my feeling:

そして専門用語が多すぎて読みにくい
禁書の悪い部分だけ抜き取ったような感じ
Yea, I also think that's what makes index as index, wouldn't want that part to be reduced or removed either. I was just making comparison which series takes more time for me to read lol.

I don't understand some of the comment on 2chan though, how can you not expect a lot of 専門語(sorry, don't know the english equivalent word for this). Isn't those words the thing that enrich the fantasy world and make the world more vibrant?
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Old 2012-04-27, 00:03   Link #649
larethian
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Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
Yea, I also think that's what makes index as index, wouldn't want that part to be reduced or removed either. I was just making comparison which series takes more time for me to read lol.

I don't understand some of the comment on 2chan though, how can you not expect a lot of 専門語(sorry, don't know the english equivalent word for this). Isn't those words the thing that enrich the fantasy world and make the world more vibrant?
The word you are looking for is 'jargon'. Mahouka's author uses a lot of physics technical jargon. It's not exactly the same as creating unique terminologies that define a fictional world.

And after browsing a few chapters randomly again, I still find Index to be easier to read. Maybe it's just me, so I'll end here.
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Old 2012-04-27, 00:39   Link #650
kuroishinigami
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For me, even if mahouka use some physics jargon, it still warps it ti create the world unique jargon that define the world(for example, there's something like an akashic record in mahouka world that a magician can theoritically access and rewrite) and those jargons are the things that define the unique world of mahouka. The author just decide to take a similar approach to index' magic and made the unique jargons sound plausible to happens as a result of physical phenomenon if the reader does not think about it too deeply. Without those jargons, mahouka world will just be like the real world instead of a fantasy world where magic can be used. That's why I said, how can someone read a fantasy story and expect not to meet lots of jargon. For me, lots of jargon is a must in a fantasy series in order to make the world unique.
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Old 2012-04-27, 01:10   Link #651
larethian
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Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
For me, even if mahouka use some physics jargon, it still warps it ti create the world unique jargon that define the world(for example, there's something like an akashic record in mahouka world that a magician can theoritically access and rewrite) and those jargons are the things that define the unique world of mahouka. The author just decide to take a similar approach to index' magic and made the unique jargons sound plausible to happens as a result of physical phenomenon if the reader does not think about it too deeply. Without those jargons, mahouka world will just be like the real world instead of a fantasy world where magic can be used. That's why I said, how can someone read a fantasy story and expect not to meet lots of jargon. For me, lots of jargon is a must in a fantasy series in order to make the world unique.
Jargon (専門語) is different from unique terminologies (世界用語) which you seem to be describing here. It means real-world professional or technical words that the common folks don't know about and need to do research, for example, words like "fermions" and "bossons", or "ubiquitous computing". Unlike specific terminologies unique to a world, which you can just read and understand from the explanations in the novel, jargon needs to be looked up if one is not in a particular profession. Mahouka uses a relatively large number of more advanced physics and computer jargon freely and expecting people to know them in general, and honestly speaking, I didn't bother to look up every one of them.

And also, judging from the English words that the author seems to be using correctly, though he writes them in katakana, he is pretty highly educated.
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Old 2012-04-27, 02:01   Link #652
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Aah okay, I misunderstand the meaning of 専門語 then. I thought it also encompass words unique to a particular setting. But somehow, I never feel the need to reasearch anything from reading the first 2 volume. Sure, I don't understand what bosson is, but somehow the novel gives enough explanation what it's used for in the world setting if I just thik of it as something unique to the world.

Whether it actually match with real world bosson or not is just a little neat extra trivia that has no impact with the overall story setting(of course I usually end up looking it up out of curiousity lol). It's like, again taking example from index since the approach is quite similar, the reader doesn't need to know how a railgun works beside it's very powerful and use electricity as power, which is explained in the novel, or knowing about string theory to understand how teleportation works beside that it use movement in different dimension to do.

Last edited by kuroishinigami; 2012-04-27 at 02:16.
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Old 2012-04-27, 04:18   Link #653
dragon1412
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Originally Posted by larethian View Post
Jargon (専門語) is different from unique terminologies (世界用語) which you seem to be describing here. It means real-world professional or technical words that the common folks don't know about and need to do research, for example, words like "fermions" and "bossons", or "ubiquitous computing". Unlike specific terminologies unique to a world, which you can just read and understand from the explanations in the novel, jargon needs to be looked up if one is not in a particular profession. Mahouka uses a relatively large number of more advanced physics and computer jargon freely and expecting people to know them in general, and honestly speaking, I didn't bother to look up every one of them.

And also, judging from the English words that the author seems to be using correctly, though he writes them in katakana, he is pretty highly educated.
At first ,MHKnR was a web novel for free and its main use to let author write on his own, the novel happen to be too famous and he become an author So its safe to assume that he's already have quite a educational background.

To be honest, at first i do look up some some of those jargon, but lately i'm stop doing that, its too hard and im just take that as fact.Btw, just lok up at 2ch comments, i'm really glad that i'm not the only one with this problem, though i can't completly agree with all of them.

The reason why most of author try to use the explaination that directly related to the real world, even the one that he's is just make out and in reality didn't exist is that it's make the reader easy to enjoy the novel, sometime you read a manga with completly no explaination or too vague of an explaination about the special power that appear, it's really hard to enjoy it like a detailed one, because the sense of understanding a liitle bit of structure or even if you can't understand but you see the structure make it feel a alittle more real in your imagination rather than a floating image.
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Old 2012-04-27, 14:53   Link #654
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yay LN vol 5 is out
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Old 2012-04-27, 15:07   Link #655
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Created an account just to stay this: but thanks to anyone who works in translating this. I discovered the manga series first, then eventually found my way to the translation of the LN. It's a very interesting story that seems to blur the line between a lot of very standard genres and blend them in such a way that I enjoy reading it without rolling my eyes. Even if the translation stalls, I look forward to seeing the manga as it is translated and even hopefully an anime in the future.

Thanks again!
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Old 2012-04-28, 09:37   Link #656
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hxxp://www.mediafire.com/?is8a1huzejra5ji

There's the arc 1 summary. Finally finished it.
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Old 2012-04-28, 10:59   Link #657
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Originally Posted by EnigmaticAxiom View Post
hxxp://www.mediafire.com/?is8a1huzejra5ji

There's the arc 1 summary. Finally finished it.
Thank you so much sir!
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Old 2012-04-28, 12:37   Link #658
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Originally Posted by EnigmaticAxiom View Post
hxxp://www.mediafire.com/?is8a1huzejra5ji

There's the arc 1 summary. Finally finished it.
Uhh how do you open it ? sorry but i am newbie.Oh question, in baka tsuki volume 2 there an illustration of miyuki wearing underwear !! what happen ? did tatsuya enter wrong room ? or it's just miyuki talk to herself ?
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Old 2012-04-28, 13:09   Link #659
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Just copy/paste the link from "www." in your browser.
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Old 2012-04-28, 13:29   Link #660
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Just copy/paste the link from "www." in your browser.
I already do it,but didn't work. They always send me to this page

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