AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Manga & Light Novels > Mahouka [LN/M]

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-09-19, 23:17   Link #6741
Rasen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoLife222 View Post
The flying magic seems to release to public like a freeware. But the hardware may be enforce with copyright law. (don really noe MKnR laws and regulation) Still, FLT got the state of the art technology, reverse engineering takes times. By the time other company copy the existing hardware, the FLT might release even more advanced one.
Hardware is probably protected, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. In short, if they buy an FLT device, they don't need to replicate it. They just need to know what did the device prioritize.

Also, give some credit to industry engineers. The real genius of Taurus Silver is Tatsuya. The hardware was handled by the other guy. While he may be smart in his own right, I doubt he's nearly as difficult to match in terms of skills.
Rasen is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 00:12   Link #6742
Voceane
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Hidden in the shadow
Do you remember that Zhou say that he is only a tradesman. Don't you think Rozen is only Blanche's open shop.
Voceane is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 04:36   Link #6743
Chimurry
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Costa Rica
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
Hardware is probably protected, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. In short, if they buy an FLT device, they don't need to replicate it. They just need to know what did the device prioritize.

Also, give some credit to industry engineers. The real genius of Taurus Silver is Tatsuya. The hardware was handled by the other guy. While he may be smart in his own right, I doubt he's nearly as difficult to match in terms of skills.
Far I understand Tats magic sequences usually become public knowledge, except like say Loop Cast inner works, flash cast, the one do without antinite without the stone, why I think this way?, cuz so far is no really links between FLT and Tats, so lets say for a moment you are right about FLT flying device and software property rights: How could explain Tats have those just barely 1 month after public announce?, the only explanation could afford is Tats/Miyuki link to FLT, but is theres freeware, theres the solution to keep under wraps, I dont known if you people are aware of this but mostly of the software have cookies or of the sorts which keep reports to appointed servers, no far ago was big scandal in US cuz certain companies did without user/owner knowledge, I use ubuntu, mozilla and mostly freeware ( I really hate microsoft people cuz technicals problems with their OS, which I paid hundreds of dollars and apple charge even for your breathing air) but is very usual they report if you like keep sending technical info to the developer, so I really like to but couldn't look for quotes on the mirage bat competition when all this are mentioned, but if I remember Tats says or thinks about all the data collected.
Chimurry is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 06:45   Link #6744
Kyosuke_Nanbu
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
More like you can build the flying device for personal use but you can't build and sell it as the right belog to FTL
Kyosuke_Nanbu is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 08:25   Link #6745
bietchie11
OneTrueTatsuya's apostles
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimurry View Post
cuz so far is no really links between FLT and Tats, so lets say for a moment you are right about FLT flying device and software property rights: How could explain Tats have those just barely 1 month after public announce?, the only explanation could afford is Tats/Miyuki link to FLT, but is theres freeware, theres the solution to keep under wraps, I dont known if you people are aware of this but mostly of the software have cookies or of the sorts which keep reports to appointed servers, no far ago was big scandal in US cuz certain companies did without user/owner knowledge, I use ubuntu, mozilla and mostly freeware ( I really hate microsoft people cuz technicals problems with their OS, which I paid hundreds of dollars and apple charge even for your breathing air) but is very usual they report if you like keep sending technical info to the developer, so I really like to but couldn't look for quotes on the mirage bat competition when all this are mentioned, but if I remember Tats says or thinks about all the data collected.
Well, everyone know Miyuki is awesome, it is not strange if she is choosen to be the CAD tester/demonstrator.
Any paperwork can be covered up by Tarus(Tatsuya) Silver(Shiba).
__________________
Metaphysics: Objective Reality
Epistemology: Reason
Ethics: Self-interest
Politics: Capitalism

-Silentwolfie-
bietchie11 is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 10:18   Link #6746
Rasen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimurry View Post
so lets say for a moment you are right about FLT flying device and software property rights: How could explain Tats have those just barely 1 month after public announce?, the only explanation could afford is Tats/Miyuki link to FLT, but is theres freeware, theres the solution to keep under wraps,
That's easy enough. Tatsuya has already claimed that he does work as a beta tester for FLT labs. Remember his conversation with Azusa?

Quote:
I dont known if you people are aware of this but mostly of the software have cookies or of the sorts which keep reports to appointed servers, no far ago was big scandal in US cuz certain companies did without user/owner knowledge, I use ubuntu, mozilla and mostly freeware ( I really hate microsoft people cuz technicals problems with their OS, which I paid hundreds of dollars and apple charge even for your breathing air) but is very usual they report if you like keep sending technical info to the developer
You realize cookies are useless if there is no internet connection?

CADs are not going to be connected to the internet in any way. Each CAD is in principle, like a military secret. No one is going to allow remote access to a CAD: not the military, and not the owners. They have enough reluctance letting technicians access their CADs.

Quote:
so I really like to but couldn't look for quotes on the mirage bat competition when all this are mentioned, but if I remember Tats says or thinks about all the data collected.
Yes, but that's because Tatsuya has special eyes. He watches the contestants use the flying-type magic (in their own CADs, not FLT), and he gets to see how different people react to using it. That's how he collected data. With his eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyosuke_Nanbu View Post
More like you can build the flying device for personal use but you can't build and sell it as the right belog to FTL
There's maybe only a little special about the CAD used for flying. Again: look at the 9 schools competition. There is no time or way to order a flying device, but all they had to do was copy the Magic Sequence into their own, low-performance, CADs.
Rasen is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 12:08   Link #6747
Waxman
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: A cheap library
And due to their low performance CADs most contestants didn't last more than 40 min (one bow down after the 15 min of the first round, 2 more after 30 min and the last 2 short after the start of third round) so while usable it has low practicality without the devise designed by the third division.
Also just for a moment consider this about magicians mentality, Tatsuya despite his talents and power is despised due to not adjusting to the standars of magicians. And while the Yotsuba are an extreme case look at the attitude of the first years course 1 when they faced Tats group (when Erika showed something to Morisaki) even when they ended up in a bad position they never considered themselves inferior it was the oposite.
What i am try to say its that (with some exeptions like Tatsuya) magicians aren't practical they would rather chose the complicated if it fit their ideas of their own superiority (Miyuki's adversary in mirage bat that prefered an exausting way to compete with her instead to aim for the second place and minimize their loss) the than a more direct aproach with more positive results (Tatsuya strategic flash for Honoka competition in battle board).
Waxman is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 12:54   Link #6748
Rasen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waxman View Post
And due to their low performance CADs most contestants didn't last more than 40 min (one bow down after the 15 min of the first round, 2 more after 30 min and the last 2 short after the start of third round) so while usable it has low practicality without the devise designed by the third division.
That's not true. ALL the contestants are stuck with low-performance CADs, per the rules of the competition. Miyuki is NOT using some special, FLT flying CAD. The reason the others drop out sooner than Miyuki is because Miyuki, like Tatsuya, has RIDICULOUS levels of psions and more practice with flying. This happens with the FLT testers too, who are obviously using FLT CADs.

Quote:
Also just for a moment consider this about magicians mentality, Tatsuya despite his talents and power is despised due to not adjusting to the standars of magicians. And while the Yotsuba are an extreme case look at the attitude of the first years course 1 when they faced Tats group (when Erika showed something to Morisaki) even when they ended up in a bad position they never considered themselves inferior it was the oposite.
First, you judge him by the Yotsuba, but ignore that EVERYone else who knows what abilities he has, fears/respects/worships him. The Yotsuba are just different. This is not a magician problem. This is a people problem.

Second, the Course 1 students have reasons to believe they are superior. It's generally true. The thing you have to remember is that Tatsuya and friends are a bunch of weirdos, who excel in areas other than the globally accepted areas.

Quote:
What i am try to say its that (with some exeptions like Tatsuya) magicians aren't practical they would rather chose the complicated if it fit their ideas of their own superiority (Miyuki's adversary in mirage bat that prefered an exausting way to compete with her instead to aim for the second place and minimize their loss) the than a more direct aproach with more positive results (Tatsuya strategic flash for Honoka competition in battle board).
Magicians are extremely practical. The standards for Course 1 and Course 2 are accepted by the world because they are RIGHT, most of the time. Tatsuya and friends are just weird. (the book says this)

As for Miyuki's adversary, what was wrong with that choice? They already know they can't win withOUT using flying magic.

Put it this way: 2nd place by playing it safe = 2nd place by gambling on flying magic. There's no "minimizing their losses."

There's no reason for them to aim for second and play it safe, unless they KNOW they will 100% lose in a flying competition.
Rasen is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 13:24   Link #6749
Waxman
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: A cheap library
Tatsuya is recogniced but understimated constantly, even when he faced Masaki in monolith code they trusted him to be second, never ocurred to them that he would win and the immediate responce of the leaders of the magic community? A show of force to demostrate that the ones at top belong there for their power.
Yes Miyuki didn't use a special CAD but she herself is special, the others and their performance are important. The problem with their choice in mirage bat its that while they already has a proper grasp of their ability and that of their adversaries, they changed that because they don't accept a first year like a equal and since they don't know the psion count of the others it was more or less a blind shot.
Practicals? It was said repeatedly that the elite in magic comunity aren't those with the more usefull magic but those more powerfull.
Yes Tats and friends are weirdos but what its weird isn't their abilities alone but their selfconfidence, it was stated that most course 2 consider themselves as weeds.
Waxman is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 14:02   Link #6750
Quol
That Guy
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Road of Life
What i dont get is that the second year they make a special course just for tatsuya because he isnt "good" enough to be a first course student, in most cases if there was an oddity in an experiment it would be ignored.

And if they do decide to make revisions to the way course 1 and 2 are selected wouldnt a tournament type system be best? Since tatsuya himself proved that practical application of magic is more useful and recognized then theoretical and tests.
Quol is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 14:09   Link #6751
Waxman
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: A cheap library
The new division is most likely the work of Katsuto remember when he said "We may want to devote a bit more time to technical skills on our side as well." in the nine school competitions, it gave the others the idea that he was planning something.
He probably used Tats merits to pull this new division to the better of his alma matter
Waxman is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 14:20   Link #6752
Breimoon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quol View Post
What i dont get is that the second year they make a special course just for tatsuya because he isnt "good" enough to be a first course student, in most cases if there was an oddity in an experiment it would be ignored.

And if they do decide to make revisions to the way course 1 and 2 are selected wouldnt a tournament type system be best? Since tatsuya himself proved that practical application of magic is more useful and recognized then theoretical and tests.

tatsuya achieved many technical results while being in class 2, so making a class for him with other people would have this class achieve many results bringing (Fame?? don't remember english equivalente for fama) under that school's name and thus having even more technic people choose that school instead of george's.
Breimoon is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 14:23   Link #6753
Rasen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waxman View Post
Tatsuya is recogniced but understimated constantly, even when he faced Masaki in monolith code they trusted him to be second, never ocurred to them that he would win and the immediate responce of the leaders of the magic community? A show of force to demostrate that the ones at top belong there for their power.
Why would it occur to them that he would win? During the competition, he keeps hiding his true level of abilities. If anything, their evaluation of Tatsuya was quite reasonable, given what they saw.

Quote:
Yes Miyuki didn't use a special CAD but she herself is special, the others and their performance are important. The problem with their choice in mirage bat its that while they already has a proper grasp of their ability and that of their adversaries, they changed that because they don't accept a first year like a equal and since they don't know the psion count of the others it was more or less a blind shot.
Really? Show me one line indicating the other students didn't consider Miyuki an equal. If anything, the actions of the competitors, like blocking Miyuki during the competition, show they take her very seriously.

Quote:
Practicals? It was said repeatedly that the elite in magic comunity aren't those with the more usefull magic but those more powerfull.
Yes Tats and friends are weirdos but what its weird isn't their abilities alone but their selfconfidence, it was stated that most course 2 consider themselves as weeds.
How are you judging "useful" over "powerful."At any rate, it makes sense to value "power" and "speed" over "useful." Remember these students are basically being raised to be soldiers. Who cares if someone has a personal magic that lets them sweep dust?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quol View Post
What i dont get is that the second year they make a special course just for tatsuya because he isnt "good" enough to be a first course student, in most cases if there was an oddity in an experiment it would be ignored.
You're half-right, I think. There probably would still be some resistance against Tatsuya becoming a course 1 student (though much less, given all his achievments)

But the new course they created had another reason. First High recognized that too many of their students were focusing on combat ability, and not engineering ability. After the 9 Schools competition, it became clear to them that they need more excellent engineering students. The course they created is a way to encourage this. Not just Course 2 students, but also Course 1 students join. Also, given the nature of engineering, it gives those who don't excel in the traditional measures of Speed, Interference Strength, or Manipulation a chance to shine.

Quote:
And if they do decide to make revisions to the way course 1 and 2 are selected wouldnt a tournament type system be best? Since tatsuya himself proved that practical application of magic is more useful and recognized then theoretical and tests.
Tournaments would be a lousy way. They can be as much a matter of luck than anything else. People may be weak to specific things, but be excellent in every other way.

Tatsuya has only proven that between equals, a difference in equipment matters.

Make no mistake though, Tatsuya is an outlier WAAAAAAAY out there. It's like, in a fighting tournament where people are rated by arm strength, speed, and endurance, Tatsuya is a nuclear bomb. He has no arm strength, speed, or endurance, but he can kill everyone.
Rasen is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 16:37   Link #6754
Quol
That Guy
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Road of Life
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
Tournaments would be a lousy way. They can be as much a matter of luck than anything else. People may be weak to specific things, but be excellent in every other way.
The thing is there are different aspects that the school deems desirable and not. The reason they test on magic strength, magic speed, and magic type is because on a general basis those who are good at that are good at battles.
What they are ultimately trying to do is determine who is the best at combat and the top 100 are put in course 1 and bottom 100 in course 2. While its true that someone might be paired up unfairly the tournament doesnt have to be 100% power. Something similar to the chuunin exams in naruto could be used. Since its obvious the school places more emphasis on battles then test scores (from the new mechanics division added)
Quol is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 17:33   Link #6755
Rasen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quol View Post
While its true that someone might be paired up unfairly the tournament doesnt have to be 100% power. Something similar to the chuunin exams in naruto could be used. Since its obvious the school places more emphasis on battles then test scores (from the new mechanics division added)
But here's an example of how a tournament might fail: Let's say Hattori and Tatsuya are paired up in round 1. Hattori loses. Does this mean he should be dropped to a Course 2 student, because he lost in the first round? Or Tatsuya vs. Mayumi, or Mari?

Tournaments are simply bad for ranking people in terms of ability. You can probably have some confidence that number 1 is one of the stronger students (though that's not guaranteed), but everyone else is much harder to tell.

Tests are much better at being objective about it.
Rasen is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 19:29   Link #6756
NoLife222
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
But here's an example of how a tournament might fail: Let's say Hattori and Tatsuya are paired up in round 1. Hattori loses. Does this mean he should be dropped to a Course 2 student, because he lost in the first round? Or Tatsuya vs. Mayumi, or Mari?

Tournaments are simply bad for ranking people in terms of ability. You can probably have some confidence that number 1 is one of the stronger students (though that's not guaranteed), but everyone else is much harder to tell.

Tests are much better at being objective about it.
Individual strength are measure with the most accurate tools. In this case, the First school used magic strength, speed and interference to determine a magician potentials. However, there are some out lier which this test cannot measure (Tatsuya for instance). Tatsuya obtain the final combat result with other means (magic timing, versatility, maximizing magic effectiveness, combat prowess, ingenuity, cunningness). Testing is simply the most standardized of measuring majority of magician but not everybody.
NoLife222 is offline  
Old 2013-09-20, 22:36   Link #6757
Rasen
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoLife222 View Post
Individual strength are measure with the most accurate tools. In this case, the First school used magic strength, speed and interference to determine a magician potentials.
1st High used the test to separate out who would be in Class 1 and Class 2, but in terms of evaluating Magicians, they're going by global standards. Schools 2-3 probably do the same, and schools 4-9 don't even have a Class 2.

Quote:
However, there are some out lier which this test cannot measure (Tatsuya for instance). Tatsuya obtain the final combat result with other means (magic timing, versatility, maximizing magic effectiveness, combat prowess, ingenuity, cunningness). Testing is simply the most standardized of measuring majority of magician but not everybody.
So your proposition is change an entire system to account for the 1/30000 outlier? (It's probably even worse odds than that, because Tatsuya is SUCH an outlier) That's inefficiency bordering on waste. Their current system is fine. It deals with 99.99% of the cases, and in the event of outliers like Tatsuya, make exceptions.

This is especially true when you consider that Course 1 and 2 students receive the same education, and have access to the same resources. Why waste time, money, and effort just to make some kids feel better? Look to Erika's example about her dojo: if you feel so bad, why don't you work harder? If you're going to let your fate be decided by others, git out.

Last edited by Rasen; 2013-09-20 at 22:52.
Rasen is offline  
Old 2013-09-21, 01:13   Link #6758
NoLife222
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
1st High used the test to separate out who would be in Class 1 and Class 2, but in terms of evaluating Magicians, they're going by global standards. Schools 2-3 probably do the same, and schools 4-9 don't even have a Class 2.



So your proposition is change an entire system to account for the 1/30000 outlier? (It's probably even worse odds than that, because Tatsuya is SUCH an outlier) That's inefficiency bordering on waste. Their current system is fine. It deals with 99.99% of the cases, and in the event of outliers like Tatsuya, make exceptions.

This is especially true when you consider that Course 1 and 2 students receive the same education, and have access to the same resources. Why waste time, money, and effort just to make some kids feel better? Look to Erika's example about her dojo: if you feel so bad, why don't you work harder? If you're going to let your fate be decided by others, git out.
I am not proposing anything, i am simply stating the weakness of testing. Unfortunately the format of testing is the most effective so it would probably used for a long term.
NoLife222 is offline  
Old 2013-09-21, 02:11   Link #6759
hakazee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Indonesia
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoLife222 View Post
I am not proposing anything, i am simply stating the weakness of testing. Unfortunately the format of testing is the most effective so it would probably used for a long term.
BS magician can't enter normal magic high school, doesn't it ?
Ono haruka as example, since she is only good in hiding.

CMIIW
hakazee is offline  
Old 2013-09-21, 07:01   Link #6760
Shinon
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Kuou Academy
just now have seen raw manga of rettousei and it says it is final chapter >> any1 know if it is true?
__________________

Last edited by Shinon; 2013-09-21 at 07:29.
Shinon is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
action, fantasy, harem, incest, magic, mahouka, rettousei, school life, shounen, siblings

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.