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Old 2014-01-20, 21:54   Link #9601
hakazee
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Originally Posted by babbo3d View Post
Which is what I said tat's magic is the type the effects the object itself (it could be said that even gram demolition is like this) which is a very bad match against tomi, tatsuya who has few (but very powerful magics).
Yep, that's the reason any magic like that can't bypass Tomitsuka armor.

A mage provides psions to a CAD, the Cad makes an activation sequence from the psions, the mage uses the activation sequence to make a magic sequence, the magic sequence(processed psions) are then used to affect the target eidos through the Idea/information dimension, reality alters to match the new information in the Idea.
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Old 2014-01-21, 00:13   Link #9602
Nandesuto
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Originally Posted by bietchie11 View Post
I discussed this with Hazakee before.

Tatsuya is capable of "utilizing attacks through the Idea" since it said "so long as Tatsuya still held onto the handicap" = he can do it but chooses not to.

If he does not use that handicap, his result is the same as other normal magicians' result (referred as "deficient Magician") when they are up against Psion armor: "could not use magic that directly influenced physical phenomena" anywhere near Tomitsuka.
Let's parse that line from the text out, okay? (Also note that this sentence is referring only to Tatsuya.)
Quote:
"Yet, so long as Tatsuya still held onto the handicap of not utilizing attacks through the Idea, then he was a deficient Magician who could not use magic that directly influenced physical phenomena."
1) "Yet, so long as Tatsuya still held onto the handicap of not utilizing attacks through the Idea"
  • Attacks made directly through the Idea would be effective. In other words, Tatsuya's innate specialty. This clause appears to imply that something like Trident (the 3-part Decomposition magic) would be effective.
  • He refuses to use such magics for obvious reasons.
2) "then he was a deficient Magician who could not use magic that directly influenced physical phenomena"
  • Tatsuya's specialization leaves him incapable of traditional magic, i.e. physical phenomena alteration (with the exception of Flash Cast).

In other words, it's suggested that given Tomitsuka's anti-magic armor, only two types of attacks are effective against him: 1) attacks made through the Idea, something that's only possible for Tatsuya, but which he cannot use in this situation, and 2) magically altered physical phenomena which Tomitsuka does not have the ability to affect (because he's "Range Zero").

In short, there are two techniques that Tomitsuka is susceptible to, and the only one Tatsuya has access to, he has sealed. That's what makes him a bad matchup for Tatsuya, but not necessarily anyone else. A normal magician who could avoid being destroyed in close combat would take him down with ease, which is why I pointed out Mayumi's Dry Meteor, which she used to subdue Lu Gonghu.
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Old 2014-01-21, 01:09   Link #9603
babbo3d
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Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
Nope, v8 explicitly states that it wasn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandesuto View Post
Let's parse that line from the text out, okay? (Also note that this sentence is referring only to Tatsuya.)

1) "Yet, so long as Tatsuya still held onto the handicap of not utilizing attacks through the Idea"
  • Attacks made directly through the Idea would be effective. In other words, Tatsuya's innate specialty. This clause appears to imply that something like Trident (the 3-part Decomposition magic) would be effective.
  • He refuses to use such magics for obvious reasons.
2) "then he was a deficient Magician who could not use magic that directly influenced physical phenomena"
  • Tatsuya's specialization leaves him incapable of traditional magic, i.e. physical phenomena alteration (with the exception of Flash Cast).

In other words, it's suggested that given Tomitsuka's anti-magic armor, only two types of attacks are effective against him: 1) attacks made through the Idea, something that's only possible for Tatsuya, but which he cannot use in this situation, and 2) magically altered physical phenomena which Tomitsuka does not have the ability to affect (because he's "Range Zero").

In short, there are two techniques that Tomitsuka is susceptible to, and the only one Tatsuya has access to, he has sealed. That's what makes him a bad matchup for Tatsuya, but not necessarily anyone else. A normal magician who could avoid being destroyed in close combat would take him down with ease, which is why I pointed out Mayumi's Dry Meteor, which she used to subdue Lu Gonghu.
attacks throught the idea don't work because even if the magics is aimed at the info of the person the pressure of the psion armors breaks the magic sequence, that's why mist dispersal a magic used throught the idea is ineffective.
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Old 2014-01-21, 04:25   Link #9604
bietchie11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandesuto View Post
Let's parse that line from the text out, okay? (Also note that this sentence is referring only to Tatsuya.)

1) "Yet, so long as Tatsuya still held onto the handicap of not utilizing attacks through the Idea"
  • Attacks made directly through the Idea would be effective. In other words, Tatsuya's innate specialty. This clause appears to imply that something like Trident (the 3-part Decomposition magic) would be effective.
  • He refuses to use such magics for obvious reasons.
2) "then he was a deficient Magician who could not use magic that directly influenced physical phenomena"
  • Tatsuya's specialization leaves him incapable of traditional magic, i.e. physical phenomena alteration (with the exception of Flash Cast).

In other words, it's suggested that given Tomitsuka's anti-magic armor, only two types of attacks are effective against him: 1) attacks made through the Idea, something that's only possible for Tatsuya, but which he cannot use in this situation, and 2) magically altered physical phenomena which Tomitsuka does not have the ability to affect (because he's "Range Zero").

In short, there are two techniques that Tomitsuka is susceptible to, and the only one Tatsuya has access to, he has sealed. That's what makes him a bad matchup for Tatsuya, but not necessarily anyone else. A normal magician who could avoid being destroyed in close combat would take him down with ease, which is why I pointed out Mayumi's Dry Meteor, which she used to subdue Lu Gonghu.
Spoiler:


After saying all that, i can be totally wrong.
If that's the case, well... you know... Tatsuya can just beat the shit out of him with his bare hands!!!
Or call Miyuki. => this is why they are so perfect for each others.
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Old 2014-01-21, 04:35   Link #9605
dragon1412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bietchie11 View Post
Spoiler:


After saying all that, i can be totally wrong.
If that's the case, well... you know... Tatsuya can just beat the shit out of him with his bare hands!!!
Or call Miyuki. => this is why they are so perfect for each others.
put it simply:
+ Tomit have body and Psion armor,
+ most magician cast magic, Psion change target Tomitsuka coordinate which the armor is in the same place, blocked by armor.
+ Tatsuya eyes allow him to target Tomitsuka body directly rather than coordinate where him stay, allow him to avoid the armor.
that's it, why do you guys keep on complicated the matter, it's already complicate enough.
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Old 2014-01-21, 12:57   Link #9606
Nandesuto
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I'll leave the comments on Tatsuya and attacks through the Idea alone, but let me remark on the latter half regarding physical phenomena alteration. While it's true that neither Tomitsuka nor his immediate surroundings can be targeted by magic, that's far and away from saying that he cannot be affected by any physical effects produced by magic; you'd simply need to instantiate said magic away from his person.

Let's take, again, Mayumi's specialty anti-personnel magic Dry Meteor as an example. 1) Tomitsuka would be unable to prevent its activation since the magic is ranged, 2) both the "bullet" motion and CO poisoning effects are physical phenomena, and thus unaffected by Gram Demolition (which obviously only affects the Gram).

It's about the application of magic. Certainly, attempts to use magic to directly affect his person would be nullified, but that is not at all the same thing as saying he is also immune to the effects of physical phenomena that have been triggered or manipulated by magic.
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Old 2014-01-21, 16:45   Link #9607
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Wasn't that already mentioned in chapter 16 of vol.12? When the author mention the (poorly named) special move of Sawaki "Match Fist".
.
Now more than Tomitsuka's armor i am curious about the relationship between Tomitsuka and his harem will have with Tatsuya.
.
With a new 9 school competition its possible that Tomitsuka (and maybe Chiaki) will be part of the technicians team along with Tatsuya and when you add Eimi there surely be some nice moments.
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Old 2014-01-21, 23:12   Link #9608
bietchie11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nandesuto View Post
I'll leave the comments on Tatsuya and attacks through the Idea alone, but let me remark on the latter half regarding physical phenomena alteration. While it's true that neither Tomitsuka nor his immediate surroundings can be targeted by magic, that's far and away from saying that he cannot be affected by any physical effects produced by magic; you'd simply need to instantiate said magic away from his person.

Let's take, again, Mayumi's specialty anti-personnel magic Dry Meteor as an example. 1) Tomitsuka would be unable to prevent its activation since the magic is ranged, 2) both the "bullet" motion and CO poisoning effects are physical phenomena, and thus unaffected by Gram Demolition (which obviously only affects the Gram).

It's about the application of magic. Certainly, attempts to use magic to directly affect his person would be nullified, but that is not at all the same thing as saying he is also immune to the effects of physical phenomena that have been triggered or manipulated by magic.
Actually, i agree with you when you said his armor is useless against physical attack.
You can find that i posted similar thing before in page 469 (which i also quoted in my last reply to you)
Spoiler for saving your time from finding those posts:

I even said in the last post if his "utilizing ... Idea..." solution fails, he can ninja Tomitsuka ass or call Miyuki(with her nitrogen blast and such). Those 2 solutions are purely physical attacks.
------------------
That's why i said nothing about it: i am not going to argue over something you already agreed with me.
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Last edited by bietchie11; 2014-01-22 at 09:53.
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Old 2014-01-22, 04:06   Link #9609
BadtheGuy
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Originally Posted by EvI View Post
i belive that the author could create a new novel that happens on the same world that this one but in the future to pick up things he didn't managed to put in 20-25 volumes (hell this is a lot already, i wonder if he'll leave anything behind), just like the author of SAO and AW.
with new protagonist and new girls, that'll be interesting ^^ (i 'm not the type to have in the same world 2 protagonists or 1 protagonist disappears or is taking care of his own life for the other one be in spotlight but i could make a exception in this novel since it's limited to his school days only...)
I'm all for more of the series but hell to the no with this post. Tatsuya and the characters drive this series. The setting is great but Tatsuya is such a good and refreshing protagonist that replacing the central characters would suck hardcore.

There is room for a Magic University setting or even a more Military focused setting if the author wants to tell more of the story past highschool.

Also. I remember Mayumi mentioning Gram Dispersion. How the hell does she know about that. How is it even possible for someone else to even use that(Doesn't it essentially require ES to use as a prereq?)
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Old 2014-01-22, 04:47   Link #9610
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Originally Posted by BadtheGuy View Post
I'm all for more of the series but hell to the no with this post. Tatsuya and the characters drive this series. The setting is great but Tatsuya is such a good and refreshing protagonist that replacing the central characters would suck hardcore.

There is room for a Magic University setting or even a more Military focused setting if the author wants to tell more of the story past highschool.

Also. I remember Mayumi mentioning Gram Dispersion. How the hell does she know about that. How is it even possible for someone else to even use that(Doesn't it essentially require ES to use as a prereq?)
i believe Gram Dispersion does not require ES as a prereq.
it is two different magic.

Gram Dispersion is more like a burst of Psion. thats why the user must have a lot of psion counts.
While up until now, i still dont know how much psion does ES use.


i havent reread, so pardon me if im wrong
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Old 2014-01-22, 04:50   Link #9611
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Originally Posted by BadtheGuy View Post
I'm all for more of the series but hell to the no with this post. Tatsuya and the characters drive this series. The setting is great but Tatsuya is such a good and refreshing protagonist that replacing the central characters would suck hardcore.
Unless those characters happen to be his kids (preferably with Miyuki) I wouldn't mind relegating Tatsuya to side character status then. XD
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Old 2014-01-22, 05:12   Link #9612
bludvein
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Originally Posted by ahmadyazidozi View Post
i believe Gram Dispersion does not require ES as a prereq.
it is two different magic.

Gram Dispersion is more like a burst of Psion. thats why the user must have a lot of psion counts.
While up until now, i still dont know how much psion does ES use.


i havent reread, so pardon me if im wrong
Quote:
Magic Dissolution (Gram Dispersion) This magic takes a Magic Ritual and decomposes it into a group of Psion particles without a meaningful structure. Due to the nature of a Magic Ritual acting on the information of an object accompanying a phenomenon, if the information has not been exposed, it is impossible to interfere with the magic. On the other hand, if the Magic Ritual is decomposed, the phenomenon will not occur. To analyze the magic before the magic is activated in the present age where invocation takes a fraction of a second requires the ability to [See] and analyze the magic structure. Since the user is typically required to understand the magic being used beforehand, it is thought utilization of this magic is impossible.
From vol 4 preamble. ES is necessary to use Gram Dispersion in combat. Your thinking of Gram Demolition, which is just a cannonball of psions that "wipes the slate clean". GD doesn't require ES, and the major limiting factor of that magic is psion count.
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Old 2014-01-22, 05:24   Link #9613
Ultragunner
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Gram Dispersion is already known to be possible...in theory that is. In order to use that you have to know the structure of the Magic Ritual, it is possible if you know it befrehand (in experiment) but no one beside Tatsuya can "see" it directly
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Old 2014-01-22, 05:52   Link #9614
ahmadyazidozi
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Originally Posted by bludvein View Post
From vol 4 preamble. ES is necessary to use Gram Dispersion in combat. Your thinking of Gram Demolition, which is just a cannonball of psions that "wipes the slate clean". GD doesn't require ES, and the major limiting factor of that magic is psion count.
Aaaah i seee
i was mistaken the gram demolition to gram dispersion, then

as for Mayumi knowing it, i suppose not only Tats can use it (while not as good as him with his ES)
and they also have the Index (National Index) and i assume Gram Dispersion is in it list
Mayumi knowing it is a big possibility ,as she is also from the 10MC
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Old 2014-01-22, 10:06   Link #9615
BadtheGuy
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Originally Posted by ahmadyazidozi View Post
Aaaah i seee
i was mistaken the gram demolition to gram dispersion, then

as for Mayumi knowing it, i suppose not only Tats can use it (while not as good as him with his ES)
and they also have the Index (National Index) and i assume Gram Dispersion is in it list
Mayumi knowing it is a big possibility ,as she is also from the 10MC
I didn't say that Mayumi could use it. That would be impossible given the requirements necessary to preform the technique.

I just thought it was strange that Gram Dispersion was even catalogued. I could buy that it is a theoretical magic only. At most, it is possible to preform under controlled experimental conditions. Practical use should be impossible.

As for Tomitsuka's Contact-Type Gram Demolition: It utilizes Tatsuya's weakness. The same weakness that Parade exploits. It muddles the image he sees and makes it hard to target the information of the opponent.

That said, it is probably like Parade in that if he abandons his physical senses and completely uses ES he could probably find what he needs. That would be dangerous for him though...
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Old 2014-01-22, 10:56   Link #9616
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Originally Posted by BadtheGuy View Post
I didn't say that Mayumi could use it. That would be impossible given the requirements necessary to preform the technique.

I just thought it was strange that Gram Dispersion was even catalogued. I could buy that it is a theoretical magic only. At most, it is possible to preform under controlled experimental conditions. Practical use should be impossible.

As for Tomitsuka's Contact-Type Gram Demolition: It utilizes Tatsuya's weakness. The same weakness that Parade exploits. It muddles the image he sees and makes it hard to target the information of the opponent.

That said, it is probably like Parade in that if he abandons his physical senses and completely uses ES he could probably find what he needs. That would be dangerous for him though...
Thats NOT how the contact-GD works. Tomitsuka is not hiding his location in the Idea, so ES would do absolutely nothing.

Tomitsuka is basically guarding his information and keeping it from being overwritten by magic. Magic sequences can't get past the "wall" that his condition creates to cause direct harm. Its in no way similar to Parade which creates fake bodies while hiding the real one.

The armor is only super useful against someone who doesn't know the trick to it or has a limited amount of ways to attack like Tat's, which is what irritated a lot of people. Magic that uses an indirect effect to attack(like the shockwave example) or magic that changes the environment(like creating a vacuum) would circumvent it easily. His version can't wipe out the source of the magic unless it comes to him, so its inferior to the normal GD in almost every way. Its only advantage is that its a passive condition.
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Old 2014-01-22, 11:00   Link #9617
bietchie11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmadyazidozi View Post
Aaaah i seee
i was mistaken the gram demolition to gram dispersion, then

as for Mayumi knowing it, i suppose not only Tats can use it (while not as good as him with his ES)
and they also have the Index (National Index) and i assume Gram Dispersion is in it list
Mayumi knowing it is a big possibility ,as she is also from the 10MC
If you remember about the event when Mayumi negated Honoka's magic, then that is no where near Gram Dispersion. Tatsuya confirmed it is not Gram Dispersion or Gram Demolition.
Spoiler:


Mayumi may heard the name but she is no scholar, she can't understand how it works, its sequence and so on. She doesn't even know about the old OS's garbage data in her CAD! You can't expect her to know something that difficult.

And she obviously can't wield a magic that's almost nobody can wield: even Tatsuya pays a big price to use it.

Actually, scratch that, she didn't know his magic when he healed the loads(Kirihara, Sayaka, Isori) in Yokohama arc. So yeah, she definitely does not know about Gram Dispersion.
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Old 2014-01-22, 11:20   Link #9618
bietchie11
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Originally Posted by bludvein View Post
Thats NOT how the contact-GD works. Tomitsuka is not hiding his location in the Idea, so ES would do absolutely nothing.

Tomitsuka is basically guarding his information and keeping it from being overwritten by magic. Magic sequences can't get past the "wall" that his condition creates to cause direct harm. Its in no way similar to Parade which creates fake bodies while hiding the real one.

Frankly, the armor is only super useful against someone who doesn't know the trick to it or has a limited amount of ways to attack like Tat's, which is what irritated a lot of people. Magic that uses an indirect effect to attack(like the shockwave example) or magic that changes the environment(like creating a vacuum) would circumvent it easily.
More like trying to interfere/intercept the magic ritual than blocking the magic .
Like AT mines that intercept any vehicles that are close to the FOB.
And as long as the blockage is not the target (Data fortification is the "reinforced target" case), there always are ways to get around it.
And the LN stated that Tatsuya can do that.


What irritate me is not that there is magic that can counter Tatsuya: Parade definitely is more of a problem and nobody fuss about it, including me. I repeat, NOBODY.

The irritating thing is: Why the heck people go over-hype and overrate Tomitsuka and his only-contact (=suck ass) GDemo? As an OP magic defense and has absolute advantage against any kind of magic anyway?
You guys certainly didn't think that in Tatsuya's RANGE&CQC (= more awesome) GDemo vs Katsuo's Phalanx.
Or Tatsuya's immortality.

It seems like you guys hope your main character being worse than he is and his noob enemies better than they are. And it's not the first time it happens: Koichi's case, Katsuto's case,...
That's what irritates me.
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Die while being awesome.
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Last edited by bietchie11; 2014-01-22 at 11:37.
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Old 2014-01-22, 11:53   Link #9619
BadtheGuy
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Originally Posted by bludvein View Post
Thats NOT how the contact-GD works. Tomitsuka is not hiding his location in the Idea, so ES would do absolutely nothing.

Tomitsuka is basically guarding his information and keeping it from being overwritten by magic. Magic sequences can't get past the "wall" that his condition creates to cause direct harm. Its in no way similar to Parade which creates fake bodies while hiding the real one.

Frankly, the armor is only super useful against someone who doesn't know the trick to it or has a limited amount of ways to attack like Tat's, which is what irritated a lot of people. Magic that uses an indirect effect to attack(like the shockwave example) or magic that changes the environment(like creating a vacuum) would circumvent it easily.
CTGD certainly acts as a shield that protects him from alteration. It is pretty obvious that it does defend against incoming magic like you said. I just meant that the reason Tatsuya was having trouble was similar to the issue with parade on top of it.

I was comparing it to how Parade acts as a shield by disguising the true location of the target /information. I was lead to believe that similarity when they started talking about how Tatsuya views CTGD as a cloud covering the personal information. Though looking back that may just be my misunderstanding.

If that is so, you can defend against Tatsuya by either obscuring that information or blocking it with enough psions.

In which case Tatsuya's weakness is shields in general(Parade/CTGD/Phalanx.) and not just the concealment aspect. You'd think he could directly target someone within the various forms of shields but I guess he can't without going through them or circumventing the effects first.

So that line with holding on to the handicap seems weird to me in this case. It makes it sound like he's holding back when it really just seems he's disadvantaged.(Ignoring Far strike since he could have used it from the start)
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Old 2014-01-22, 12:02   Link #9620
iCloudz7
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Actually Phalanx is not a problem for Tatsuya, the only counter to Tatsuya is Parade.

Quick question: Can Tatsuya overwrite CTGD just using a Psion Wave? Like Using his GD on Tomitsuka CTGD using more psions?
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