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Old 2014-03-27, 13:27   Link #12601
Lazy cat
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Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
Not unavoidable.
Extremely likely, but not unavoidable.
The main thing is that Miyuki has been raised to conform to certain preconceptions, so it's unlikely she will go against them even if she did not like them, or if they were not actually all the necessary.

My main point has been consistently that, if she really wants to, and is willing to go for it, she could avoid marriage, and that marriage is not really necessary for the main objectives of a marriage (more mages + Yotsuba heir), because other options exist.

I don't see the main conflict or drama about the marriage being about inevitability of the marriage, but a struggle inside Miyuki about whether she keeps following the preconceived notions of society, or will she break free and do what she wants.

It's not even the struggle of mages as weapons or demand for more mages, but same struggle lot of people in a conformist society go through.
oh, i think i can see what you mean, thanks.
by the way i just said that "is unavoidable unless something change" wich means even i agree there are chances of she not get married, but i think if that come true it wouldn't be due to a change in her resolve, i think it is more likely to be something circustantial.
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Old 2014-03-27, 13:33   Link #12602
anonfr
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Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
Not unavoidable.
Extremely likely, but not unavoidable.
The main thing is that Miyuki has been raised to conform to certain preconceptions, so it's unlikely she will go against them even if she did not like them, or if they were not actually all the necessary.

My main point has been consistently that, if she really wants to, and is willing to go for it, she could avoid marriage, and that marriage is not really necessary for the main objectives of a marriage (more mages + Yotsuba heir), because other options exist.

I don't see the main conflict or drama about the marriage being about inevitability of the marriage, but a struggle inside Miyuki about whether she keeps following the preconceived notions of society, or will she break free and do what she wants.

It's not even the struggle of mages as weapons or demand for more mages, but same struggle lot of people in a conformist society go through.
You know, there's also the fact that the Yotsuba is an extremely centralized and internalized organization.

Miya probably could've been paired up with a magician from one of the 10 families, or one of the hundreds families, but she wasn't she was paired with Tatsurou. Why? He had a huge psion count. Also, he was someone the yotsuba could effectively use, buy off and control, which they preceded to do. Tatsurou is essentially non existent in the over all hierarchy of the Yotsuba Clan.

So Miyuki could go through a similar process, Or they could do the whole artificial insemination thing to keep outsiders out of the clan. The Yotsuba are really exclusive, The Yotsuba clan are only those with Yotsuba blood, The Yotsuba clan only welcome those with Yotsuba blood. Even that isn't 100% since Tatsuya is barely included in the Yotsuba clan hierarchy himself. Some would say he has zero inclusion but I disagree since he's occasionally exerted some influence of his own that most Guardians would never be capable of. There's also the fact of the other Guardians, the Sakura series basically harvested for exclusive Yotsuba use. Female heirs are also a tricky thing since it largely depends on having a proper and capable male suitor that also would have absolutely no influence over Miyuki's authority.

If Miyuki did artificial insemination, The Yotsuba clan would remain as centralized as ever, with Miyuki of the Yotsuba line having Yotsuba children that would have zero influence from those outside of the Yotsuba.

Putting aside the moral argument, the science argument, and just focusing on the reasoning of the Yotsuba remaining secretive, exclusive and centralized provides a valid argument on why Miyuki may not need to marry after all. Unless there's secretly a suitor that's been prepared off screen for some time now that meets all the vital Criteria in a similar way Tatsurou did. As in, an impressive magician by today's standards, not from a great family, and would never have internal influence.
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Old 2014-03-27, 13:35   Link #12603
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Originally Posted by Echizen777 View Post
Miyuki is already very very popular, so popular policemen want her autograph. And she is so much more than her peers, it's a wonder people didn't ask her if she is from the TMCs. So beautiful, so popular and refusing to get married? The world won't permit her to do that. talented.

Tatsuya may help her but even Tatsuya can't fight against the world.
What?
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Old 2014-03-27, 13:36   Link #12604
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Originally Posted by Echizen777 View Post
Miyuki is already very very popular, so popular policemen want her autograph. And she is so much more than her peers, it's a wonder people didn't ask her if she is from the TMCs. So beautiful, so popular and refusing to get married? The world won't permit her to do that. talented.

Tatsuya may help her but even Tatsuya can't fight against the world.
Lol dude, you underestimate Tatsuya.
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Old 2014-03-27, 13:40   Link #12605
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Originally Posted by Lazy cat View Post
oh, i think i can see what you mean, thanks.
by the way i just said that "is unavoidable unless something change" wich means even i agree there are chances of she not get married, but i think if that come true it wouldn't be due to a change in her resolve, i think it is more likely to be something circustantial.
It is inevitable, unless Miyuki decides not to do it.
Not really what i would call inevitable.
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Old 2014-03-27, 13:43   Link #12606
Ultraviolet X
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Its very nice to ship your characters but try not to forget about the established facts in the Ln otherwise it has no weight, and it leaves holes in the theorys. Lately there have been some shipping that has been ignoring things stated in the Ln and ignoring what we know of peoples characters.
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Old 2014-03-27, 13:45   Link #12607
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Originally Posted by DarkSilverSky View Post
Lol dude, you underestimate Tatsuya.
I knew someone would post something like this. But I don't think I am underestimating him.
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Old 2014-03-27, 13:51   Link #12608
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Originally Posted by Echizen777 View Post
I knew someone would post something like this. But I don't think I am underestimating him.
Let's get real then, Yotsuba Maya and the Elder are the strongest in Japan.
The Elder don't get involved in the ten family problems and yotsuba maya said herself that against Tatsuya she would probably lose. And it's not like Tatsuya is alone anyways, since besides being an irregular magician, he also has irregular friends.

Well at the end you were just joking anyways
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Old 2014-03-27, 14:12   Link #12609
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Originally Posted by Echizen777 View Post
Miyuki is already very very popular, so popular policemen want her autograph. And she is so much more than her peers, it's a wonder people didn't ask her if she is from the TMCs. So beautiful, so popular and refusing to get married? The world won't permit her to do that. talented. Tatsuya may help her but even Tatsuya can't fight against the world.
If Japan has taught us anything about their treatment of idols, it is that their fans get REALLY angry when they get married.

It's not the "world" that Miyuki has to be concerned about. It's the Yotsuba.


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Originally Posted by DarkSilverSky View Post
People that are saying that Miyuki will soon marry, are just forgetting about the brocon Tatsuya.
I'm beginning to realize a lot of people don't understand the terms they're using.

Once again, if Tatsuya were a brocon....well, there wouldn't be any issues about him and Miyuki having children.

Quote:
Miyuki is the only reason he has to live, since he pretty much has very little material desires and can only love his sister.
The thing is that Tatsuya won't give Miyuki to people unwhorty of having her, and he has huge standarts( since he consideres Lina has a simple trainning for his sister) and the only group of people he respects are his battalion and the elder Kudou, which have no interest in her sister.
He told Miyuki to go dancing with Ichijou.

Basically you have the order wrong. What Miyuki wants, is what Tatsuya wants. If Miyuki wants to marry some nobody off the street, Tatsuya will support her. If Miyuki wants him to show off, he will show off. If Miyuki wants him to join competitions, he will join competitions. What MIYUKI wants goes.

Quote:
For his family trying to make miyuki the head, Tatsuya said in the earlier volumes that he won't always submit to the Yotsuba clan and that he his planning to do something, when they decide to reveal Miyuki to the public.
Quote please. I'm pretty sure the most he's said is that he's preparing to do something, IF the family tries to force Miyuki to do anything she does not want.

Quote:
And, on a different note, what do you think of the idea of Yotsuba clan buying Tatsuya, since he his treated as a tool by his father(he isn't a magician, so why should he care that his power isen't actually magic and treat him with no love unlike miyuki)? Even the magic he has that belong to the Yotsuba family were only gained after the experiment he had which may indicate he was never part of the family.
Why would the Yotsuba "buy" Tatsuya? They already own him through Miyuki.

The only magic he gained from the Yotsuba experiment was to do "normal" magic. His in-born magic was too powerful so he couldn't use anything else.
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Old 2014-03-27, 14:35   Link #12610
DarkSilverSky
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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
If Japan has taught us anything about their treatment of idols, it is that their fans get REALLY angry when they get married.

It's not the "world" that Miyuki has to be concerned about. It's the Yotsuba.




I'm beginning to realize a lot of people don't understand the terms they're using.

Once again, if Tatsuya were a brocon....well, there wouldn't be any issues about him and Miyuki having children.



He told Miyuki to go dancing with Ichijou.

Basically you have the order wrong. What Miyuki wants, is what Tatsuya wants. If Miyuki wants to marry some nobody off the street, Tatsuya will support her. If Miyuki wants him to show off, he will show off. If Miyuki wants him to join competitions, he will join competitions. What MIYUKI wants goes.



Quote please. I'm pretty sure the most he's said is that he's preparing to do something, IF the family tries to force Miyuki to do anything she does not want.



Why would the Yotsuba "buy" Tatsuya? They already own him through Miyuki.

The only magic he gained from the Yotsuba experiment was to do "normal" magic. His in-born magic was too powerful so he couldn't use anything else.
First i am sorry for responding like this, i don't know how to make those separate quotes.

About messing up the terms, i've been reading "No Game No life", and since they are both in love, and it's often used siscon and brocon i messed them up again like i ussualy do. And i probably don't know which one is the rigth one. But i guess this is only an excuse

About Miyuki, well she want's her brother happiness and her brother can only be happy with her, so it will end up in stalemate. And I doubt Tatsuya would allow miyuki to marry someone off the street. Tatsuya want what's best for Miyuki, and Miyuki wants her brother to be happy.

Also When I meant tatsuya being purchased i was speaking about as a kid, like those soldeir kids that are trained to use guns, and afterwards binding him to the family using miyuki. I din't meant buying him with money to make him loyal. He also gained flash cast by using the experiment if i recall? Migth be Wrong.

I can't give u the quote but i know it's somewhere around volume 2 or 3, but I won't reread this novel again atleast until i enter vacations. But i guess what you said is somewhat the same as i did.
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Old 2014-03-27, 14:59   Link #12611
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Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
Because Yotsuba sure as hell don't mind "playing god"
While the Yotsuba are pretty archaic, ruthless and use magic to mess with the mind, I don't think its ever been indicated that the Yotsuba have done any actual genetic experimentation or birth related experimentation aside from matching suitably talented partners together.



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Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
"Miyuki has to marry to provide an heir" is the claim.
I have pointed out how it is not necessary either from biological, or practical point of view.
Now there could be advantages to a marriage, but would they be greater than making the head of the most powerful mage clan in japan pissed of and miserable, and possibly making the walking nuke go off out of anger? Unlikely.
Well its first important to remember that one of the main reasons Japan's magical lineage families were created were as a big magician eugenics project. It was explained artificial magician methods of creating magicians pretty much failed as those born went crazy or had far too short a lifespan. Rather than necessity, its Japan's tried, true and society acceptable main method of producing outstanding magicians, and is known as the worlds most refined application.

So the pressure would be heavy and even if she refused it would continue to be applied. She and Tatsuya can't go around threatening annihilation at everyone since not everyone would be cowed be such terror tactics, and there are always those who never learn and don't know any better. Also, the 2 haven't yet been shown to be crazy dictators that would kill their fellow countrymen over such things.



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Originally Posted by anonfr View Post
If Miyuki did artificial insemination, The Yotsuba clan would remain as centralized as ever, with Miyuki of the Yotsuba line having Yotsuba children that would have zero influence from those outside of the Yotsuba.
I do believe Miyuki might refuse this method for the same reasons she might refuse marriage. Unless its Tatsuya's.



Quote:
Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
My main point has been consistently that, if she really wants to, and is willing to go for it, she could avoid marriage, and that marriage is not really necessary for the main objectives of a marriage (more mages + Yotsuba heir), because other options exist.
The other options though would either produce short lived offspring or would be just as detestable to Miyuki, and don't carry the positives of being acceptable in classy magician society's eyes as well as possibly forging political ties. Even if she doesn't marry, the reason she would not want to and what she wishes for will remain unfilled, unless she gains Tatsuya as a lover.
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Old 2014-03-27, 15:00   Link #12612
Ultraviolet X
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Originally Posted by DarkSilverSky View Post
And I doubt Tatsuya would allow miyuki to marry someone off the street. Tatsuya want what's best for Miyuki, and Miyuki wants her brother to be happy.
First priority: Miyuki's saftey
Second priority: Miyuki's desires

Marrying somone off the street posses no problems to Tatsuya if Miyuki actually wants it, he would make an effort to help Miyuki in anything she wants as long as it doesn't compromise her safety, and even if it does he will at least look into a problem to find a viable solution that doesn't. If Tatsuya thinks there is something wrong with something Miyuki wants he will inform her, but in the end folds to her as long as it doesn't compromise her saftey.

Last edited by Ultraviolet X; 2014-03-27 at 16:07. Reason: Corrections
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Old 2014-03-27, 15:21   Link #12613
J4n1
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While the Yotsuba are pretty archaic, ruthless and use magic to mess with the mind, I don't think its ever been indicated that the Yotsuba have done any actual genetic experimentation or birth related experimentation aside from matching suitably talented partners together.
Sakura series.

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Originally Posted by Guest2 View Post
Well its first important to remember that one of the main reasons Japan's magical lineage families were created were as a big magician eugenics project. It was explained artificial magician methods of creating magicians pretty much failed as those born went crazy or had far too short a lifespan. Rather than necessity, its Japan's tried, true and society acceptable main method of producing outstanding magicians, and is known as the worlds most refined application.
I have not, ever, suggested any genetic experimentation.
Artificial insemination, it happens, today, on humans, no genetic experimentation involved.

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Originally Posted by Guest2 View Post
So the pressure would be heavy and even if she refused it would continue to be applied. She and Tatsuya can't go around threatening annihilation at everyone since not everyone would be cowed be such terror tactics, and there are always those who never learn and don't know any better. Also, the 2 haven't yet been shown to be crazy dictators that would kill their fellow countrymen over such things.
What kind of pressure? Get married or we will, what, nag?
There is no need for force, or even threat of force.
Only one who can order it is Maya, and she is not insane enough to push the issue if Miyuki really puts her foot down.

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Originally Posted by Guest2 View Post
I do believe Miyuki might refuse this method for the same reasons she might refuse marriage. Unless its Tatsuya's.
And now you suddenly say she would refuse marriage?
When the option presented is superior in every way to forced loveless marriage with someone she does not give a shit about?

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Originally Posted by Guest2 View Post
The other options though would either produce short lived offspring or would be just as detestable to Miyuki, and don't carry the positives of being acceptable in classy magician society's eyes as well as possibly forging political ties. Even if she doesn't marry, the reason she would not want to and what she wishes for will remain unfilled, unless she gains Tatsuya as a lover.
The "classy magician society" won't give a shit as long as the offspring is a strong mage.

Why would Miyuki detest a child she carried? Why would she detest it more than the offspring that comes with a loveless marriage?
And why is the options "loveless marriage" and "incest"?

As for shortened lifespan argument...
Artificial Insemination is done, today, on humans, with no ill effects.
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Old 2014-03-27, 15:22   Link #12614
DarkSilverSky
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I agree with most of what you said, but on this point you are wrong j4n1.

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Originally Posted by Guest2 View Post
Also, the 2 haven't yet been shown to be crazy dictators that would kill their fellow countrymen over such things.
Tatsuya would kill anyone who mess with miyuki desires or safety like UltravioletX said, and that doesn't even require a quote, since everyone know it's true. I think altough it's not a fact, miyuki would be the same.

One question though, does anyone know if the webnovel is still running and what volume they are or ended?

Also has anyone though that miyuki migth be an hardcore yandere, that only allows tatsuya to have friends(mostly female), so he can regain lost emotions?

Last edited by DarkSilverSky; 2014-03-27 at 15:23. Reason: Typing2fast
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Old 2014-03-27, 15:29   Link #12615
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Originally Posted by DarkSilverSky View Post
I agree with most of what you said, but on this point you are wrong j4n1.
Why are you referring to me while quoting Guest2 ?

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Originally Posted by DarkSilverSky View Post
Tatsuya would kill anyone who mess with miyuki desires or safety like UltravioletX said, and that doesn't even require a quote, since everyone know it's true. I think altough it's not a fact, miyuki would be the same.

One question though, does anyone know if the webnovel is still running and what volume they are or ended?

Also has anyone though that miyuki migth be an hardcore yandere, that only allows tatsuya to have friends(mostly female), so he can regain lost emotions?
Basically, only way they can make Miyuki marry someone is Miyuki agrees to it, other option is to physically drag her to altar and rape her, at which point Tatsuya goes nuts.

Maya ain't stupid, she knows that if Miyuki says no, that's it.
They can nag any amount they want, but they can't force the issue.
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Old 2014-03-27, 15:29   Link #12616
Ultraviolet X
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Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
What kind of pressure? Get married or we will, what, nag?
There is no need for force, or even threat of force.
Only one who can order it is Maya, and she is not insane enough to push the issue if Miyuki really puts her foot down.
Thats just your speculation on your part, and from what is given, yes Maya is. Rather then saying "do this or else", she is more the type to pressure Miyuki or manipulate her into doing it. Take the scheme to both keep Tatsuya loyal to the Yotsuba and keeping him rebelling for an example on how she does things.

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Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
And now you suddenly say she would refuse marriage?
When the option presented is superior in every way to forced loveless marriage with someone she does not give a shit about?
The issue being addresed here is that Miyuki doesn't want any man other then Tatsuya to touch her, she finds the idea repulsive. How does that method differ for her?

Quote:
If Miyuki did artificial insemination, The Yotsuba clan would remain as centralized as ever, with Miyuki of the Yotsuba line having Yotsuba children that would have zero influence from those outside of the Yotsuba.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
Why would Miyuki detest a child she carried? Why would she detest it more than the offspring that comes with a loveless marriage?
And why is the options "loveless marriage" and "incest"?
Same as my above. Its another mans child, from what is given she would find it repulsive. Well, she may come to feel differently if its her child as well, but thats speculation, and speculation differing from what we know of her at that.

Last edited by Ultraviolet X; 2014-03-27 at 15:47.
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Old 2014-03-27, 15:40   Link #12617
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I don't find Maya, as the villan people make her out to be. I think she migth turn out to be kinda of Tatsuya friend/allie. I just don't think she is a bad person and she can probably relate to tatsuya or not. This is just my speculation, and there isen't even an ounce of proves.

Well even though we are talking about Miyuki marriage, i don't think the story will go that way. The author said so far he only planned to make the story about highschool, with the first year having 11 volumes and the second and third having 6 volumes each(I read this in this forum, but who's gonna cheack 600 pages of discussion :P). The idea i get, is that the last arc/volumes will be about her marriage, and breaking of the relation with the family and that will be the end(or maybe we will get a twist, who knows)
.
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Old 2014-03-27, 15:43   Link #12618
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I do believe Miyuki might refuse this method for the same reasons she might refuse marriage. Unless its Tatsuya's.
You're right. Miyuki most probably wouldn't want it. BUT in the hypothetical world of hypothetical things in a fictional universe, if Miyuki had no choice in the matter, this is a possible alternative to marriage.

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Originally Posted by DarkSilverSky View Post
One question though, does anyone know if the webnovel is still running and what volume they are or ended?

Also has anyone though that miyuki migth be an hardcore yandere, that only allows tatsuya to have friends(mostly female), so he can regain lost emotions?
Web novel is not running.

and Miyuki is secretly using others to slowly build up Tatsuya's emotions back so she can then precede to continue to monopolize his new improved and stronger emotions the same way she monopolizes his stunted emotions? DEVIOUS

Not sure if that's the case, but it's a fun idea.
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Old 2014-03-27, 15:52   Link #12619
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Trick? No, my friend. This is EXACTLY what I needed. Of course, the story could take a very different direction, but I think this is pretty telling, so from now on, I'm going to be a little more assertive, for I'm now 98% sure this story will, one way or another, end with Tatsuya being with Miyuki.

Now, how does this wipe out all the other pairings? Check it out. "Snow Goddess". That's very important. I keep stressing that Miyuki shares the same personality, role, effect on people as the goddess Parvati, as well as sharing vaguely similar circumstances. But there was one thing about her that made me wonder: why snow? The author made them feel so similar already, so why'd he give Miyuki snow as her most prominently used magic? And give her all these snow related symbols and titles? Sure, Parvati lived in the snowy mountains, but surely that can't be enough. Maybe it's just some personal added touch to her character? I thought. Or maybe it's another tie in to the fact that there was a Shiva summon in FF who used ice. They don't have to be completely similar...

But this changes everything. Parvati's name in Chinese is "Snow Goddess" and now everything about her character and her symbolic attributes make sense. What this does is basically move Miyuki away from simply having the same functions as Parvati and being heavily based on her, to being nigh identical to her and being a good re-imagining of the goddess into the story of Mahouka. Like Tatsuya. Who people have long since established is nigh identical to Shiva. Now we can say the same thing about Miyuki. Because even her ice powers fit with the mythological parallels. Logic also dictates that since it appears they've kept with the parallels this long--we've got half the story finished already--it follows that they'd probably do the same till the end. Shiva is married to the Snow Goddess. Now...what does that say?
I mostly agree about Parvati's part. While there is too much similiarity that can't be said just coincidence. But from what i read, Their personality is different. Parvati is somewhat aggresive and assertive person similiar like Erika or Mayumi,eh...WAW XD. I don't think Miyuki can be aggresive as Parvati. They share "snow" like in every aspect but personality... But in the future something like that can't be ruled out though.

So yeah, i agree it can happen with Miyuki case, but as far to wiped out another shipping, that is too much.


For marriage talk, is not Miyuki mother married someone she is not love with? Maybe all of you thinking too deep that you lost something that so simple. Marriage is too far yet we acted as far as we Miyuki herself. That was too much.
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Old 2014-03-27, 16:09   Link #12620
DarkSilverSky
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Originally Posted by MShukyDeneuve View Post
I mostly agree about Parvati's part. While there is too much similiarity that can't be said just coincidence. But from what i read, Their personality is different. Parvati is somewhat aggresive and assertive person similiar like Erika or Mayumi,eh...WAW XD. I don't think Miyuki can be aggresive as Parvati. They share "snow" like in every aspect but personality... But in the future something like that can't be ruled out though.
Even though i don't know what you meant, i think Miyuki can be pretty agressive and assertive, she competes with honoka in romantic actions, and doesn't even try to hide her love for tatsuya.



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Originally Posted by MShukyDeneuve View Post
For marriage talk, is not Miyuki mother married someone she is not love with? Maybe all of you thinking too deep that you lost something that so simple. Marriage is too far yet we acted as far as we Miyuki herself. That was too much.
Miyuki mother overused her power and lost emotions, rigth? So i don't think she even cares if she is married or not, and probably just said "whatever sure" when asked to marry. We don't really know how Yotsuba is on marriage, because we don't have a single case of a normal weeding, since romance seems fucked up on late 21 century.
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