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Old 2013-07-08, 11:17   Link #7841
Feng Lengshun
Old Wine
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
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^ Nope. She she seems to be an actual Goddess. Even the narration on the V10 Epilogue seems to point it to be so.

^ ^ Well, I guess saying "It's magic" is a good enough excuse because as far as I know, for it to be in GEO it requires to follow the Earth's rotation in the Orbit while still remaining in space despite the gravity. Being in a Lagrangian Point should solve the problem of remaining in space without the need of any thrusting device to do it, especially if it is located on a Trojan Asteroid thus also fulfilling the part of "being on a patch of land".
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Old 2013-07-08, 15:52   Link #7842
Hidfe
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Originally Posted by Algester View Post
perhaps this time Godou will gain Athena's authority properly and not just some black hole sword
You do realize that this is one of the strongest (if not strongest) attacks we have seen so far and he barely mastered it.
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Originally Posted by Algester View Post
all in preparation for a bigger fight well of to this sailing ship, unless she becomes a harem member... unlikely but still her talent is needed by Godou just as she promised and hopefully she's rightfully Godou's
Gaining more authorities could actually be a bad thing when fighting the King of the End.
"The inevitable encounter with the arriving 'Arrowhead' will undoubtedly prove to be a threat. However, ill fate is not everything it entails. Although it is not a certain goddess' box, when all disasters are over, hope will surely appear."
"Hope huh."
Watching Godou's face as he muttered to himself, the princess nodded.
"Fufu, among all god-slayers in history, your attitude towards power is especially free and unfettered. Perhaps because of that, you might obtain power instead. Ióonce known in the past as... The Goddess' Daughter, pray for your victorious fortune in battle, Kusanagi-sama!"

My personal theory is that the anti campione authority of the ĄKing that comes at the worlds endĒ depends on how many authorities the Campione has.
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Originally Posted by blackwhite67 View Post
That's not possible. Athena was reborn as a Divine Ancestor to serve as Guinivere's replacement in awakening the king of the End. Authorities can only be gained from Heretic Gods.
It was explicitly said that the power of a divine ancestor is not enough to awaken the Campione Slayer and this is why Guinevera brought back Athena as a goddess to awaken him.
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Old 2013-07-08, 16:48   Link #7843
anonfr
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Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun View Post
^ Doubt it. Strictly speaking, Melqart is even more related to Hercules, being called the prototype of him and all. Not to mention, Prometheus aren't related to the Argonauts at all. And while I do realize he also has connection with Lucifer, I doubt the Author would actually use it (so the condition of present in the whole Eurasia aren't fulfilled).

I think you don't realize how closely Prometheus and Hercules are connected.

I didn't just randomly go "Prometheus is the king of the end" without putting any serious thought into it.

I put a lot of thought into it. I really, really did.

Spoiler for I'll just put all my thoughts right here..:


I know a lot of this is a bit of a stretch, but in my defense Campione lore in general is a bit of a stretch, I feel like with this in mind my theory at least has legs to stand on, and might even be considered plausible. I'm not even trying to say that I'm right and this version of lore I put together is the king of the end, but I just couldn't come up with anything else that fit in every aspect of what I know so far. nothing connects the dots better than this. I hope instead of receiving criticism you'll see this as food for thought and maybe someone will come up with something even more plausible. I honestly have even more comparisons and details I can add in, but that would be a lot more for me to write and you to read and I feel like I'm barely coherent, I just honestly have been trying to connect dots with the king of the end this whole time and this is what I've come up with.
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Old 2013-07-08, 17:14   Link #7844
Kadi
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Very, very interesting...

So, how do you explain that the "biggest patron of mankind" would systematically defeat the "protectors of mankind from rampaging gods"? Wouldn't he rather be anti-god?

Also, why would Susanoo call him "brat"?


You made the rest sound very fitting, though. Especially the part with the multiple Hercules...ses? ...



Edit: You seem to have done a lot of research already, so maybe you can tell me... what are his relationships with Athena and Hecate?
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Old 2013-07-08, 18:25   Link #7845
anonfr
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Very, very interesting...

So, how do you explain that the "biggest patron of mankind" would systematically defeat the "protectors of mankind from rampaging gods"? Wouldn't he rather be anti-god?

Also, why would Susanoo call him "brat"?


You made the rest sound very fitting, though. Especially the part with the multiple Hercules...ses? ...



Edit: You seem to have done a lot of research already, so maybe you can tell me... what are his relationships with Athena and Hecate?
Ahh I already said my theory was rough so I can't rationalize everything. but why wouldn't the biggest patron of mankind want to kill campiones? they're walking disasters that defy common sense, leave all sorts of destruction in their wake, they're considered enemies of mankind as much as their protectors. if anything his reasoning can be similar to Erlang. I think the king of the end is kind of against everything, if I'm right about his relation to Prometheus it'd only be natural for him to attack other gods, and he has motive against everything having to do with Epimethius and Pandora. Basically, if he achieved absolute victory it'd take the world Campione is set in and make it so there's no more gods or Campiones, it'd just be normal. Once again this is just me rationalizing though.

As for his relationship with Athena, that can be interpreted in at least 2 ways. Firstly there's his relation as the great grandson of Perseus and they share the same ancestor of Io. I found this explanation that can kind of justify that on it's own.
Spoiler for Perseus:


There's a lot of extra and unrelated information in there, but I figured I should just give all of it for a full understanding of the family tree, since I feel like Io if she ever pops up (which I doubt) would be related to earth and that can be important. Also Heracles kind of stands against campione's Athena in a very absolute way. She's an earth goddess, heracles killed the hydra, along with several other agriculturally and earth related creatures that bear significance in mythology. like the Nemean lion, Erymanthian Boar, Mares of Diomedes (horses = earth and also can equal Dragons apparently), Cretan Bull, and the cattle of Geryon. Also on top of that he invaded the underworld, Athena's domain, he overcame death with his pure and absolute might, and he stole Cerberus. this also might be a bit of a stretch but if you were athena, wouldn't you kind of really hate that guy after all of that? with everything Athena stands for and all that. Also when I was looking up stories with Athena, there's several sources stating that She also came to the aid of Heracles during his labors and fought on the side of the Greeks during the Trojan War. I've already stated that Heracles has a connection with the trojan war via his bow, but Athena assisted him the same way Athena is known to have assisted Perseus. so. that?

Hecate I'm a little less knowledgeable about. I know she has lore in the same location. Heracles is considered a hero of Thrace, as well as related to sparta and the original king Spartacus, Hecate was also a goddess based in Thrace. if you force it you can say she's connected to Prometheus since she's a bearer of the 2 Torches (flame of Olympus) and a follower of Helios (flame of olympus). Hecate is also a comrade of Prometheus considering she's also a titan that took the Olympians side in the war against the titans and the gods, so there's that. I know that she's related strongly to Artemis which can be associated with anything having to do with hunting (like Arcas who I mentioned before. and the Bow's of Odysseus and Heracles). She can be considered in opposition to heracles as she's (simply put) the goddess of a happy home life, blessings to family and particularly children, and heracles slaughtered his family in madness in some lore. she also appears in Aeschylus which is basically a tablet considered the primary source for most greek mythology, it also features the myrmidons Achilles fought with, and Heracles and Prometheus. Though all of this is just rationalizing and Hecate is probably the hardest to link, but those are the connections I know of, even if they're extremely basic.

and susanoo calling him a brat? I honestly don't have much of an answer for that. In various lore Heracles and Arthur are considered to be a bit immature. Described as boyish, bullheaded, having a might makes right single minded chivalrous attitude. in a way the various quests and labors are their coming of age, they grow and learn wisdom and humility as well as a strong sense of right and wrong, though they're always noted for being arrogant. Maybe susanoo is referring to these various aspects of his character? other than Prometheus being entombed and the behavior of Heracles and Arthur towards the end of their lives, I really don't know why Susanoo would call them "lazybones" either.

Like I said ever since they brought up the king of the end I've been racking all my mythology classroom/video game/anime knowledge to try and figure it out. I thought of gilgamesh, seigfried, norse characters and every sword in the stone figure I could think of. when I put all of this together, noted that a lot of it could be subtle foreshadowing (even Alec's authority of from the archangel Raphiel can be a related to Lucifer who has similar traits to Prometheus , though that'd be a HUGE stretch. a better one would be minos, a blood relative of heracles, who was slayed by theseus, who traveled to the amazon isles with Heracles. still. a stretch) when I put it all together in my head, it was the only dots that connected at all.

I won't ever assert I'm right or that you have to believe me, I could be COMPLETELY wrong, maybe there's another god that has all of these traits in common in a much more basic way that would be more correct. I just ya know, wanted to share my theory, get a second opinion, broaden my horizons and all that. so, those are my answers.
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Old 2013-07-08, 18:39   Link #7846
Feng Lengshun
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Originally Posted by anonfr View Post
I think you don't realize how closely Prometheus and Hercules are connected.

I didn't just randomly go "Prometheus is the king of the end" without putting any serious thought into it.

I put a lot of thought into it. I really, really did.


I know a lot of this is a bit of a stretch, but in my defense Campione lore in general is a bit of a stretch, I feel like with this in mind my theory at least has legs to stand on, and might even be considered plausible. I'm not even trying to say that I'm right and this version of lore I put together is the king of the end, but I just couldn't come up with anything else that fit in every aspect of what I know so far. nothing connects the dots better than this. I hope instead of receiving criticism you'll see this as food for thought and maybe someone will come up with something even more plausible. I honestly have even more comparisons and details I can add in, but that would be a lot more for me to write and you to read and I feel like I'm barely coherent, I just honestly have been trying to connect dots with the king of the end this whole time and this is what I've come up with.
I know quite some about him. I should, considering that I researched about him for my Campione-Mondaiji fanfic, although I connect him more with Lucifer/Satan and Fire Worship. And honestly, just as likely your explanation is, I think that my explanation is just as likely to be correct.

I honestly think that the most likely base for Artus is the God of Bear Cult, among the earliest in mankind's worships. The name Arthur and Artus can be traced back to the word Bear.

Spoiler for Etymology of Bear:


Here is my own reasoning why it could be the Bear Cult:

Spoiler for Artus and Bears:


And honestly, I would think twice before facing against someone that was essentially known as the animal that was human's primal fear since the prehistoric age. But more seriously, it really depends on "A certain point of view." Just as your theory is valid "from a certain point of view," my theory is kind of valid too.

Best thing is, I put it all together in less than half an hour research on Wikipedia inspired by my memories of it when I was researching about Fire Worship and the connection with Prometheus. See, it doesn't matter how much research you put on it because I could pull out a convincing theory (in my Point of View) just with a short time amount of research too.
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Old 2013-07-08, 18:56   Link #7847
anonfr
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Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun View Post
I know quite some about him. I should, considering that I researched about him for my Campione-Mondaiji fanfic, although I connect him more with Lucifer/Satan and Fire Worship. And honestly, just as likely your explanation is, I think that my explanation is just as likely to be correct.

I honestly think that the most likely base for Artus is the God of Bear Cult, among the earliest in mankind's worships. The name Arthur and Artus can be traced back to the word Bear.

Spoiler for Etymology of Bear:


Here is my own reasoning why it could be the Bear Cult:

Spoiler for Artus and Bears:


And honestly, I would think twice before facing against someone that was essentially known as the animal that was human's primal fear since the prehistoric age. But more seriously, it really depends on "A certain point of view." Just as your theory is valid "from a certain point of view," my theory is kind of valid too.

Best thing is, I put it all together in less than half an hour research on Wikipedia inspired by my memories of it when I was researching about Fire Worship and the connection with Prometheus. See, it doesn't matter how much research you put on it because I could pull out a convincing theory (in my Point of View) just with a short time amount of research too.
I already said, you putting out a convincing theory is the exact reason I put out mine. I don't want to be like "I'm right, you're wrong." I want to gain outside opinions and try to gain a conclusion.

and the thing is my theory connects to yours. I realated Hercules to Arcas through their star constellations and similar origin. Arcas and Artus are in a lot of ways, basically the same. Arcas is connected to Ursa major and Ursa minor. the story of his lore is that after Zeus conceived Arcas with Callisto, Hera cursed Callisto and turned her into a bear. Towards the end of Arcas's story, he was out hunting and his mother (in her bear form) saw him and started running toward her beloved son. Arcas, seeing this huge bear running toward him, tried to shoot her dead. Zeus interfered, and cast them both into the sky as constellation represented by a huntsman and a bear.

therefore Arcas = Artus. and if you read over my theory I already connected Arcas to Hercules with their overlapping constellations and similar origin stories.

You're right, all the research I do might not mean anything since everything is valid from a certain point of view, but in a way your point of view helps prove mine, you even made a stronger connection to sun wukong than I had previously. and I wouldn't be able to notice that or make the connection without doing any research. So, I feel like it helps a little. besides the whole point of my research was to help someone else come up with a more valid theory than mine. like I said, instead of criticism, I really just want to receive more information.
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Old 2013-07-08, 19:02   Link #7848
Feng Lengshun
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^ Sure, whatevs. And I thought I stopped thinking about Artus' origins a few months ago... well, anyway, I'm going with Occam's Razor here. The theory of Artus being Prometheus is way too complicated you cannot put it into 3-5 paragraphs, which is how long the arguments in the [Warrior]'s spell word of infodropping usually are.
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Old 2013-07-08, 19:07   Link #7849
Kadi
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Originally Posted by anonfr View Post
*more long text*
@brat: Maybe Heracles was a bit immature, but Prometheus was known for thinking ahead...

@Athena: Sorry, no time to read it all right now (although I asked, I know)

@Hecate: Well, the less links there are between your amalgamation and Hecate, the better. But the "Prometheus and Hecate are both rebel titans" seems kinda strong and it makes me doubt the King of the End is Prometheus. After all, she should've only gotten to know him after they came to earth...
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Old 2013-07-08, 19:20   Link #7850
anonfr
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I'm just not very good at being concise. my basic theory is prometheus -> hercules -> artus.

and a lot of what I wrote is just showing connections to all the other gods that appeared so far, like sun wukong, perseus, and lancelot. I figured if I was going to post a theory I might as well go all out and cover all the basis, if you take out the connections to the other gods that appeared in the series so far, my basic theory is actually much, much shorter. I figured I should show connections and a sense of foreshadowing to back up my claim. Gather evidence, draw conclusions.
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Old 2013-07-08, 20:47   Link #7851
Yye1
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I dont really care about the relationships, but i want more liliana nxt volume!!
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Old 2013-07-08, 22:26   Link #7852
Chris38
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I dont really care about the relationships, but i want more liliana nxt volume!!
Considering how the current latest volume ended, I don't see how that would actually occur, unless something starts happening, in the present day, while Godou, Erica and Ena are dealing with the situation in the past world.

In any other case, I think that you will need to wait until Godou's trip to the past ends, and he returns to the present era, to see more of Liliana.
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Old 2013-07-08, 23:10   Link #7853
anonfr
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Originally Posted by Kadi View Post
@brat: Maybe Heracles was a bit immature, but Prometheus was known for thinking ahead...

@Athena: Sorry, no time to read it all right now (although I asked, I know)

@Hecate: Well, the less links there are between your amalgamation and Hecate, the better. But the "Prometheus and Hecate are both rebel titans" seems kinda strong and it makes me doubt the King of the End is Prometheus. After all, she should've only gotten to know him after they came to earth...
@brat: I didn't stop to answer this earlier but him being a god of forethought counts more towards an authority than a character trait. Prometheus was a trickster god and a thief similar towards sun wukong and susanoo himself. another of his lore is that he sacrificed a bull to zeus but made him choose. "a selection of beef hidden inside an ox's stomach (nourishment hidden inside a displeasing exterior), and the bull's bones wrapped completely in "glistening fat" (something inedible hidden inside a pleasing exterior).
"
Basically he messed with him and tried to get one over. so while he's known for scheming, plotting, having a quick wit he was never necessarily wise, or else he probably wouldn't have ended up the way he did. Hercules and arthur are also known to try to outwit or play tricks on their opponents in some of their quests. Also if he assumes the form of arthur or hercules he'd probably appear more youthful or as a young man compared to susanoo who looks like middle aged I guess? hence being a brat.
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Old 2013-07-09, 01:32   Link #7854
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You do realize that this is one of the strongest (if not strongest) attacks we have seen so far and he barely mastered it.

Gaining more authorities could actually be a bad thing when fighting the King of the End.
"The inevitable encounter with the arriving 'Arrowhead' will undoubtedly prove to be a threat. However, ill fate is not everything it entails. Although it is not a certain goddess' box, when all disasters are over, hope will surely appear."
"Hope huh."
Watching Godou's face as he muttered to himself, the princess nodded.
"Fufu, among all god-slayers in history, your attitude towards power is especially free and unfettered. Perhaps because of that, you might obtain power instead. Ióonce known in the past as... The Goddess' Daughter, pray for your victorious fortune in battle, Kusanagi-sama!"

My personal theory is that the anti campione authority of the ĄKing that comes at the worlds endĒ depends on how many authorities the Campione has.

It was explicitly said that the power of a divine ancestor is not enough to awaken the Campione Slayer and this is why Guinevera brought back Athena as a goddess to awaken him.
as for me Godou getting more Authorities is an inescapable problem as right now he stands that he will more or less likely face the King of the End whether he likes it or not, so as it stands he will need most of the help he can get without involving his other... brothers and sisters, else this is likely the reason why 1 generation of Campiones died asides from Aisha as the sole survivor, in short 1 generation were hoisted by their own petards, as we have known all Campiones will be involved as long as theres something powerful involve, it's their "instinct" that tells them they have to fight a threat larger than life, should Godou survive this fateful encounter is left hanging, but we do know that much of the gods he has been facing is in preparation for something big
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Old 2013-07-09, 02:57   Link #7855
OverNOut
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^ Aisha is part of the old generation Campione who have not yet encountered the King of The End.
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Old 2013-07-09, 03:31   Link #7856
Chris38
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^ Aisha is part of the old generation Campione who have not yet encountered the King of The End.
No, I wouldn't say that she hasn't encountered him, since due to how her time travel authority works, she might have the misfortune of encountering him, during one of her "journeys".

Since, she tries not to talk about what she was doing in her past "travels" ... the possibility of her encountering The King of The End, is still "open".

EDIT: I also just realized something (I might have been a little slow in that regard), but it might be relevant. Apparently Godou, Erica and Ena have been transfered to somewhere Between 400 and 410 CE. Uldin's "death" have been mentioned to occur in the year 412 CE.

Those two date's are really close to each other ... close enough, that it might be possible that, due to the involvement of Doni and Godou in Uldin's life ... the corrective force of history, is going to strike ... leading to Uldin being killed earlier then what was recorded in history.

And, since I don't see anyone "normal" being capable of killing a god slayer, it might mean, that a certain god, is going to appear earlier, then what was in his "schedule".

Last edited by Chris38; 2013-07-09 at 13:13.
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Old 2013-07-12, 17:55   Link #7857
Feng Lengshun
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Am I the only one here suspicious of Pandora? She kept on saying that the Campiones are all her children, and yet from how she acts she looks like she was okay with the fact that another God is doing a genocide towards her children. No matter how you look at it, it's just way too suspicious. It just makes no sense for her to make no move or counter-plans against Artus. If anything, I really suspect her of hiding something and possibly being a manipulator behind the scene.

She might have an Arc for her own later. Hopefully it finally answers the question of "Where's Elpis, you know, the Goddess/Spirit of Hope found within the Pandora Box?" I am really questioning it. In addition to all the other people related to her, that is, Prometheus, Epimetheus, Pyrrha, and Deucalion. IF there is actually an Arc for her anyway.
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Old 2013-07-12, 18:27   Link #7858
blackwhite67
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Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun View Post
Am I the only one here suspicious of Pandora? She kept on saying that the Campiones are all her children, and yet from how she acts she looks like she was okay with the fact that another God is doing a genocide towards her children. No matter how you look at it, it's just way too suspicious. It just makes no sense for her to make no move or counter-plans against Artus. If anything, I really suspect her of hiding something and possibly being a manipulator behind the scene.

She might have an Arc for her own later. Hopefully it finally answers the question of "Where's Elpis, you know, the Goddess/Spirit of Hope found within the Pandora Box?" I am really questioning it. In addition to all the other people related to her, that is, Prometheus, Epimetheus, Pyrrha, and Deucalion. IF there is actually an Arc for her anyway.
You sure you're not just measuring her by human standards? Remember that these are gods. All they do is fight since they don't have human tendencies like eating or sleeping and they have little regard for human life. As for the King of the End, I'm sure sometimes campiones fight each other. Does it really matter if they lose to another god?
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Old 2013-07-12, 18:47   Link #7859
Kadi
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There are also rules gods have to obey, even heretic gods. As I understood it, true gods are forbidden from interfering (too much, anyway) and all gods are limited as to what knowledge they are allowed to pass on to humans. Some (many?) of the things Pandora told Godou in their meetings so far were only okay because he'd forget them anyway.

Dunno who'd enforce the rules, though.
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Old 2013-07-12, 21:27   Link #7860
Feng Lengshun
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Look, she's treating Godou like it was her own child. And then she also treats the other Campiones the same way. And she is apparently fine with them all dying and getting killed by the Gods. Either she was hiding something or she was a psychotic girl who likes to play family. Or she just didn't care. Or there are some reasons preventing her from taking action, even from the background and she has simply gave up. Whichever it is, it shows that she is more than meets the eye.

As for the other guys related to her, we haven't even see Epimetheus, nor have we seen Elpis, the Hope. Hope was said to be what the Campione system was made from, so the question is, how the did the story that a personification of hope was inside it came to be?

See, that's why I think Pandora is the most mysterious character. Even if she really was honest, that itself already made more questions.
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