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Old 2013-11-28, 13:55   Link #8961
The Green One
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He might just not want to debate about it. Let's be honest here. There's probably not much anyone here could say to change your opinion on this. That's rather common on message boards like this.
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Old 2013-11-28, 14:05   Link #8962
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Thats true there are a lot of points I could debate like the liberal use of the Mary Stu title, and how do you try to use it to gloss over a lot of things, and how do I like the pace of the story, but I understand that for each their own. If you dont enjoy it I understand, If I wanted to read a VN I would go and read one, but in this case I like it.
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Old 2013-11-28, 14:41   Link #8963
Gore17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun View Post
Spoiler for The Story:
This is something I have problems with. I don't mind long, drawn-out stories, and I don't mind stories without some deep meaning or purpose behind them. If anything, it just pisses me off it get's too blatant or preachy. This is probably in large part because of my beliefs, strangely enough.
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Old 2013-11-28, 16:21   Link #8964
Endscape
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun View Post
They tend to be shallow and very typical. They seems to be modeled based on a certain character archetype and never really venture out of that archetype. This is especially true for the Campione! characters. They're all based on a certain cliched archetype and it was played straight instead of deconstructed or subverted.
That's quite a shallow analysis. There's much more you can do with characters than just subverting or deconstructing them. The campiones are a character study. If you create characters based on some common stereotypes and then give said characters immense power and nearly unlimited authority, what would you get?

That basically what the campiones are. Godou is a Ordinary Highschool Student, Alec is a Phantom Thief, Luo Hao is a chuunibyou, Aisha is a dojikko, Doni is a Idiot Hero, JPS/Annie Charlton is a bit more complicated, representing the identity crisis that masked superheroes face, about which side of them is who they truly are. That's what their characters are about.

Personally, I find it pretty interesting. The last time I saw something like that with a specific group of characters was David Edding's Belgarion series, another favourite of mine.

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But more than that, they're treated with respect regardless of what they do and they never got a consequence for their actions
That's completely untrue. People are always complaining about campiones in the series. All the time. If they were Sues (a phrase which actually has little meaning outside fanfiction), people would sing their praises regardless of what they do.

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At first she was like Shirou
Again, a shallow analysis. Aisha was never all that similar to Emiya Shirou, if that is who you mean, except for the helping people thing. Their motivations for that are very different from each other. Have you played the VN?

Quote:
but come the next volume, her characterization became bland and screams Purity Sue.
Except that's a bit of a deconstruction, since it's all due to her authority, and it gets her labeled as a more troublesome entity than someone like Voban. If it wasn't for that, rather than a Purity Sue, she'd be treated as what she is, a dojikko.

Quote:
Also, I think that the characters are just inherently heartless. They never get sad, they rarely felt pity, they do not sympathize nor empathize with other people, and if they do, it's rarely and must be physical first in nature, heck, they even rarely shows any important emotions.
Again, that's quite untrue. There have been some fine interactions between characters, particularly Godou's harem.

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Then there's all that infodrops. God, they can't make clear how the magic worked but they decided to waste a lot of paragraphs over historical trivia?
That's just a matter of taste. I'm a fan of comprehensive magic systems, but to be frank, they aren't an absolute necessity. As long as the magic remains internally consistent, that's enough. As for the history, that's a quirk. I like it myself, seeing as it's what attracted me to the series in the first place.
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Old 2013-11-29, 03:04   Link #8965
Feng Lengshun
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Originally Posted by The Green One View Post
He might just not want to debate about it. Let's be honest here. There's probably not much anyone here could say to change your opinion on this. That's rather common on message boards like this.
Well, I do enjoy arguments, debates, and analyzing because I think that's more productive than commenting about things you can't change about. Or making theories that can't effect or determine anything and only results in bragging rights awards at most and disappointment at worst.

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Originally Posted by Mars Mode View Post
Thats true there are a lot of points I could debate like the liberal use of the Mary Stu title, and how do you try to use it to gloss over a lot of things, and how do I like the pace of the story, but I understand that for each their own. If you dont enjoy it I understand, If I wanted to read a VN I would go and read one, but in this case I like it.
Yes, I understand that. I just want to know which weak points do you recognize and which ones you don't. Call it curiosity, I guess.

As for Mary Stu (wut, last I checked it's Marty Stu or Mary Sue, not Mary Stu), I mostly refers to them as a Stu/Sue. There are many kinds of them (link):

Anti-Sue, Black Hole Sue, Canon Sue, Possession Sue, Copy Cat Sue, Dream Sue, Einstein Sue, Fixer Sue, God-Mode Sue, Jerk Sue, Lemon Stu, Mary Tzu, Marty Stu, Parody Sue, Purity Sue, Mary Sue Classic, Neutrality Sue , Relationship Sue, Sympathetic Sue, Villain Sue.

Voban is obvious Villain Sue. Luo Hao is almost a God-Mode Sue, though she's pretty much just a Power Seeker like Brolli were. Aisha is a Black Hole Sue and Purity Sue. Alec is a Jerk Sue and Mary Tzu. Annie/JPS is mostly okay, she's quite balanced though her Oneitus can be annoying. Doni is an obvious God-Mode Sue. And Godou is of course, a Marty Stu, and Uldin too is one. The girls are borderline Relationship Sues too.

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Originally Posted by Gore17 View Post
This is something I have problems with. I don't mind long, drawn-out stories, and I don't mind stories without some deep meaning or purpose behind them. If anything, it just pisses me off it get's too blatant or preachy. This is probably in large part because of my beliefs, strangely enough.
I don't mind them either, if it can make up it's mind if it wants to be relaxed, serious, or crack. And I don't like it when they got too blatant/preachy either, though some do requires it. After all, there's The Limit of Theme: In stories, you don’t talk the theme: you walk the theme. Otherwise, it could kill an otherwise awesome premise.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
That's quite a shallow analysis. There's much more you can do with characters than just subverting or deconstructing them. The campiones are a character study. If you create characters based on some common stereotypes and then give said characters immense power and nearly unlimited authority, what would you get?

That basically what the campiones are. Godou is a Ordinary Highschool Student, Alec is a Phantom Thief, Luo Hao is a chuunibyou, Aisha is a dojikko, Doni is a Idiot Hero, JPS/Annie Charlton is a bit more complicated, representing the identity crisis that masked superheroes face, about which side of them is who they truly are. That's what their characters are about.

Personally, I find it pretty interesting. The last time I saw something like that with a specific group of characters was David Edding's Belgarion series, another favourite of mine.
I find the setup and premise is interesting too. The execution? Nope. All of them are all Sues and Stus in someway, but that could be played for an interesting effect. But we never really saw the situation really, really explored. We never sees it comes into a conflict or something, no, what we keep seeing is all of them headbutting like a bunch of kid.

And is that really exploring it? Studying it? No, nuh uh. Last time I checked, when you study/explore something, you put it in various conditions and not just the same monotony ones ('annoying', 'troublesome', and 'childish'). It has never, ever, played for serious effect, but at the same time, it isn't comedic (well, crack) enough to be called a parody. Because all of them are played straight without subversion, aversion, double subversion, deconstruction, reconstruction, satire... they become annoying instead.

I mean, if you're going to bring an element into a story, make sure you fucking use it. Law of Conservation of Details and Chekhovs Gun. So far, it's just a small gimmick that played some role but not enough explored. So it become annoying instead. I can't call that a character study. Not until they have actually shown enough aspects of it, that is, aspects that seriously matters.

Quote:
People are always complaining about campiones in the series. All the time. If they were Sues (a phrase which actually has little meaning outside fanfiction), people would sing their praises regardless of what they do.
And has this actually been pushed into a conflict? They don't sing praises to it, no, but the characters keep on loving Godou and pushing Godou to do it. If they really aren't Sues/Stus, have they actually got in a conflict that they can't handle? Have they been really, really shown to get hated for it? Despised?

Oh, they've only told you that everyone's complaining about the Campiones, but has this EVER played a critical plot role? Has Godou's 'allies' ever really pulled a What the Hell Hero? over him? All they do is just ask for more of his attention and love. Never hate him genuinely, never genuinely angry at him, never genuinely disappointed in him. Only 'comedically'. Which isn't really comedic since it's not that funny after the first few times and gets tiring fast.

Remember, "Show, don't tell." Really reminds me of the whole Canon!Nitori vs Fanon!Nitori case. The fanon based it on what ZUN said about her being 'shy' and how she looked like. The canon? They examined her actual dialogues and actions then determines that she's just neurotic. It doesn't matter what the author said if it didn't show up and play a role in the story, that's just an Informed Attribute.

Also, there ARE Stus and Sues that are canonically a Sue/Stu. I remember there was one movie where the MC is a Stu/Sue while the villain isn't shown to be that bad of a person and got his business ruined because of the MC. But that's a cheap movie. But then again, this is also a cheap novel aimed at teenagers so, not a big surprise there.

Quote:
Again, a shallow analysis. Aisha was never all that similar to Emiya Shirou, if that is who you mean, except for the helping people thing. Their motivations for that are very different from each other. Have you played the VN?
I have. And as I said, it was at first glance on V14. Then, subsequent encounters made her just a bland Purity Sue and Black Hole Sue. It's a shallow analysis because it IS a shallow analysis made when she first appeared. As you should know, a character is defined by the first AND subsequent appearances. It was my very first impression of her, when I still thought her as admirable.

Quote:
Except that's a bit of a deconstruction, since it's all due to her authority, and it gets her labeled as a more troublesome entity than someone like Voban. If it wasn't for that, rather than a Purity Sue, she'd be treated as what she is, a dojikko.
Just a label, she never got treated with fear or disgust over her power. Even Godou just thinks of her as 'troublesome' when she's more of an oblivious monster. And that 'dojikko' is a trait of a Purity Sue, as explained by TvTropes here:

"They almost never have any flaws that actually affect them in a way that truly matters, usually going for endearing traits such as "clumsiness" or na´vetÚ, instead getting overloaded with overwhelmingly positive but largely passive traits (i.e. beauty, innocence, etc.). The character will usually be soft-spoken, have a pleasant voice, and be mild-mannered. Often, the traits verge towards the ethereal, with auras, non-human lineage, and other such things."

Now why does that sounds so familiar?

Quote:
Again, that's quite untrue. There have been some fine interactions between characters, particularly Godou's harem.
Interaction? Yes. But not a serious one like a serious lover would have. If anything, it felt like a fling than a serious relationship. There has never been any serious conflict between the characters either, which is a really important part of making an actual story and relationship in fiction.

A romantic relationship isn't defined by just some 'heartwarming fluff' or 'fanservice kisses'. It's defined by conflicts and dynamics in the relationship, where it can move up and down. Low and high. Happy and sad. Envy and anger. Love and hatred. We have never get that dynamic, all is just "Girls resist, Godou be gentleman, girls follows," though lately it's been reversed to "Godou resist, girls insist, Godou follows," which is just a reversal. And also, that's just interaction dynamic. What I want to see is emotional dynamic.

As it was, the emotions are pretty monotone. No fear. No hatred. No anguish. No breakdown. No depression. No emotional rebirth. Is this really a story with high historical/mythological theme? Last time I checked, in the Hero's Journey system, there's a point where the hero falls and then rises up again, reborn. So much for having mythological theme, if he doesn't even know about an old storytelling system like that.

Quote:
That's just a matter of taste. I'm a fan of comprehensive magic systems, but to be frank, they aren't an absolute necessity. As long as the magic remains internally consistent, that's enough. As for the history, that's a quirk. I like it myself, seeing as it's what attracted me to the series in the first place.
Necessary? No, it's not. But what I want isn't a comprehensive magic system, but a clear magic system. Zero no Tsukaima's isn't really comprehensive nor complex, but it was well-explained. Any of Key's works never really explains the supernatural part but they have a drama happening that is engaging enough that it didn't matter anyway.

The history is fine. But it can be intrusive and forced sometimes. Like with Godou's [Sword]. I tend to skim them because they're basically just infodump. Really, if he wanted to show history, then why not just make a freaking history book? Why not just set it in the past where THAT is the focus of the story?

On that note, just what is the focus of the story? For an action genre, there are a lot of times that aren't focused on external conflict and violence. History? No, it isn't set in a historical time? Fantasy? Yeah, I can accept that, but that isn't a story genre, just a setting genre. Comedy? It's not really funny and not much focus in the humor. Romance? It doesn't really put any hurdle for the lovers to overcome, a principle in the genre. Love/friendship? Not enough focus on the coming and falling apart of relationships. Maturation Plot? Not really, reality never really slapped him in the face, just on the wrist.

It felt like it tried too hard in mixing the genre and didn't come into any genre. With that said, if there are one things that I have to praise, that would be its awesome ideas/premise. It's very good, the idea, the premise, the basis. I love it. Even if I am losing my love for the story, I still love the premise and ideas very much. The actions are not that bad but it's still mostly just power fest and that doesn't really engage me. I prefer high-speed high-strategy battle, not high-power low-strategy battle (by strategy, I'm talking about guiding the enemy to a certain action and then doing a certain action. There are some in the scenes, hence 'low' and not 'no'). It's okay, though due to the long-winded setup for the scene, it's not worth that much for me.
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Old 2013-11-29, 18:55   Link #8966
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Looks like Godou's girls can fight divine beasts on their own now. awesome
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Old 2013-11-29, 19:18   Link #8967
Feng Lengshun
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I think someone has already said that's not a really great thing anymore as of this point.

Last edited by Feng Lengshun; 2013-11-29 at 19:59.
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Old 2013-11-29, 19:49   Link #8968
Raziel07
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Looks like Godou's girls can fight divine beasts on their own now. awesome
Back on volume 8 or 9 i think, more or less around the time with lancelot they where already on this level
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Old 2013-11-30, 00:53   Link #8969
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Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun View Post
I think someone has already said that's not a really great thing anymore as of this point.
...not a really great thing? I think the perspective has been warped. Divine Beasts are pretty much the strongest things a human can hope to beat in this series. For a full squad of Great Knights it would be a toss-up whether they could actually defeat a divine beast or not.

Even Paulo and St. Raffaelo together didn't have that easy of a time against a fairly weak divine beast, and they are 2 of the strongest human characters in the series. They had more to give, but it was by no means easy. That divine beast didn't have the support of a summoner either.
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Old 2013-11-30, 01:09   Link #8970
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between the 4 of them they were able to stop Lancelot for a while and Lancelot was a goddess so a divine beast is like something that should be hard but not especial ...
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Old 2013-11-30, 01:12   Link #8971
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I think everyone is entitled to their opinions and can disagree on things but let's not let things get out of hand. People have things they like and things they don't like. That's how things work.

Personally, I think the relationship RIGHT NOW is a bit too smooth for Godou and the girls, and I really haven't seen much development on the girl's side of things since volume 13 with Yuri. It kind of seems that at times Godou is in a semi youth frenzy, but then again, he is a healthy 16 year old. He doesn't even get a nose bleed either.

Godou has gotten more used to the girls but that may be the effect of his current environment that he's been staying in for a couple of weeks in the past. I kind of want to see something kind of like volume 8 where his personal domestic life is focused on with some hijinks from the girls. I suppose Valentine's Day may have that.

However, that might be about 2 volumes away considering this volume probably ends on a cliffhanger again.
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Old 2013-11-30, 01:14   Link #8972
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i think godou has finally embrace his " inner uldin " xD
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Old 2013-11-30, 01:53   Link #8973
Feng Lengshun
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Originally Posted by bludvein View Post
...not a really great thing? I think the perspective has been warped. Divine Beasts are pretty much the strongest things a human can hope to beat in this series. For a full squad of Great Knights it would be a toss-up whether they could actually defeat a divine beast or not.

Even Paulo and St. Raffaelo together didn't have that easy of a time against a fairly weak divine beast, and they are 2 of the strongest human characters in the series. They had more to give, but it was by no means easy. That divine beast didn't have the support of a summoner either.
Nah. In-Universe? It's great, an achievement worth bragging about. Meta-wise? Not really, it has become ordinary as everyone's getting stronger now.

You know, one thing I've been thinking, is that how long Campione! will run for. By 15 Volumes, we still only reached about the middle (at most) or beginning (at least) of Artos Arc. This is after all the foreshadowings and build-ups towards his figure in the previous Arcs. And we still haven't dealt with the truth of the universe (the origin of the Campione system and the Heretic Gods system for one) and whoever/whatever is behind everything, behind Artos and Pandora's existence, roles, and 'pacts' (Artos said he was forge, he had a duty, Pandora said there are things she can't said and she's plain suspicious).

I just hope it won't be as long as To Aru series. At least that one's better written and ensemble-centric instead of protagonist-centric so they had a defense...
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Old 2013-11-30, 02:24   Link #8974
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Originally Posted by Phoenix221186 View Post
i think godou has finally embrace his " inner uldin " xD
If Godou were to have real character development, it would be one of 2 things. He would eventually accept his inner Uldin and become more aggressive/lecherous with his harem while continuing to protest that he is a pacifistic normal high school kid.

The other way and the way I would personally prefer would be for him to acknowledge he is no longer normal, wave goodbye to his pretense that he is a pacifist and take some personal responsibility for the damage and other issues he causes, instead of more or less shrugging it off to be forgotten and having no impact on him. More or less for him to grow up.

I doubt the second would happen, most likely the first would happen if anything, other then getting to use his powers better.
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Old 2013-11-30, 04:32   Link #8975
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I just can't take divine beasts serious anymore when Erica and Ena kill them like it's nothing.
I seem to recall that it was supposed to be incredibly difficult for a mere mage.
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Old 2013-11-30, 05:24   Link #8976
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Well I guess I have to blame the genes coming from his grandfather...Well not really. From the start I guess he was subconsciously having a harem of his own as time goes by...
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Old 2013-11-30, 05:39   Link #8977
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I just can't take divine beasts serious anymore when Erica and Ena kill them like it's nothing.
I seem to recall that it was supposed to be incredibly difficult for a mere mage.
i could understand Ena when she uses divine possession , but for rest of harem to kill them like they were nothing......
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Old 2013-11-30, 06:05   Link #8978
Kna
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No surprised there...

They didn't turn into sand or ash or just vanish after death. the corpses are there so they aren't divine beast of the level Sun Wukong summoned. They are more like divine messengers or just wield beasts with big buff from goddess. Around 10 Frank warriors can stop it advances somewhat should be the first clue, really.

Now the owl-bear is the real divine beast more or less
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Old 2013-11-30, 08:39   Link #8979
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Old 2013-11-30, 08:56   Link #8980
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Thanks for the quick summary.

Spoiler for ...:
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