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Old 2013-12-15, 02:58   Link #9121
Feng Lengshun
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Join Date: Jul 2013
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I remember it being disgraced and fallen Mother Earth Goddess, but if it's that way, it felt like that they're a a whole different "species" from Heretic Gods instead of just a "sub-species". That would basically mean that once slain even once, they'll only revive as Mother Earth Goddesses. If they could refuse getting revived and stay in the realm of gods, that also means it's possible for them to just use that as a way to regain their goddess-hood, making Divine Ancestor is like an extra function if they want to revive early or something.

But anyway, I thought it had something to do with Holy Grail?
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Old 2013-12-15, 03:11   Link #9122
Chris38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun View Post
I remember it being disgraced and fallen Mother Earth Goddess, but if it's that way, it felt like that they're a a whole different "species" from Heretic Gods instead of just a "sub-species". That would basically mean that once slain even once, they'll only revive as Mother Earth Goddesses. If they could refuse getting revived and stay in the realm of gods, that also means it's possible for them to just use that as a way to regain their goddess-hood, making Divine Ancestor is like an extra function if they want to revive early or something.

But anyway, I thought it had something to do with Holy Grail?
I think that the creation of a Divine Ancestor, has to do with an Earth Goddess dieing due to her Divine powers / essence being stolen from her, in such a way that makes her unable to fully recover it.

Since the Holy Grail's function steals Divine powers from Earth Goddesses, and stores the stolen power until it's used, being slain by it, naturally makes it more likely for a Earth Goddess to become a Divine Ancestor.
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Old 2013-12-15, 03:20   Link #9123
black prince
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun View Post
I remember it being disgraced and fallen Mother Earth Goddess, but if it's that way, it felt like that they're a a whole different "species" from Heretic Gods instead of just a "sub-species". That would basically mean that once slain even once, they'll only revive as Mother Earth Goddesses. If they could refuse getting revived and stay in the realm of gods, that also means it's possible for them to just use that as a way to regain their goddess-hood, making Divine Ancestor is like an extra function if they want to revive early or something.

But anyway, I thought it had something to do with Holy Grail?
Holy Grail is something that created by Guinevere when she still Goddess. The Goddess died in proccess creating Grail then reborn as Divine Ancestor
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Old 2013-12-15, 06:25   Link #9124
bakapervert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun View Post
I remember it being disgraced and fallen Mother Earth Goddess, but if it's that way, it felt like that they're a a whole different "species" from Heretic Gods instead of just a "sub-species". That would basically mean that once slain even once, they'll only revive as Mother Earth Goddesses. If they could refuse getting revived and stay in the realm of gods, that also means it's possible for them to just use that as a way to regain their goddess-hood, making Divine Ancestor is like an extra function if they want to revive early or something.

But anyway, I thought it had something to do with Holy Grail?
Isn't there also something like being defeated and become the bride or underling and get their power stripped? I think I remember something like that.
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Old 2013-12-15, 14:43   Link #9125
Breimoon
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Isn't there also something like being defeated and become the bride or underling and get their power stripped? I think I remember something like that.
Nibelungenlied , with Hero Sigfrido and heroine Crimilde is the most similar thing that i remember
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Old 2013-12-15, 17:38   Link #9126
Ickarium
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I don't think it has anything to do with how they're defeated. And I -really- don't think it's simply 'Any Earth Goddess who is defeated becomes one' or we'd be drowning in Divine Ancestors.

I think it's more or less a choice (I /think/ I recall Athena hinting at considering at one point), and such a choice is rare because as the books say, gods are all about ego. Become a weak little near-human? I can't see pretty much any deity thinking that. Even Athena, who is the nearest to 'nice' we get of the rogue deities, wouldn't really do that.
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Old 2013-12-15, 18:01   Link #9127
Hidfe
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As far as I remember Divine Ancestors are Earth Goddesses that were killed by the King of the End in order to extract their immortality for the energy source for his Sword. Every Steel has some characteristic to exploit the earth and the Kote has obviously the strongest characteristic. Also every Divine Ancestor is a servant for the Kote. Guinevere sacrificed her immortality in order to lessen the burden for the Kote to create the Holy Grail which basically has the same “authority” (suck the immortality of earth goddesses).
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Old 2013-12-15, 20:04   Link #9128
Feng Lengshun
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Originally Posted by Breimoon View Post
Nibelungenlied , with Hero Sigfrido and heroine Crimilde is the most similar thing that i remember
Siegfried/Sigurd and Brunhilde/Sigrdrifa, and the monster was Fafnir. Kriemhild/Gutrune might also play a role.

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Originally Posted by Ickarium View Post
I don't think it has anything to do with how they're defeated. And I -really- don't think it's simply 'Any Earth Goddess who is defeated becomes one' or we'd be drowning in Divine Ancestors.

I think it's more or less a choice (I /think/ I recall Athena hinting at considering at one point), and such a choice is rare because as the books say, gods are all about ego. Become a weak little near-human? I can't see pretty much any deity thinking that. Even Athena, who is the nearest to 'nice' we get of the rogue deities, wouldn't really do that.
Yeah, I kind of thought of that too, but the next one is the one that is closer to my memory.

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Originally Posted by Hidfe View Post
As far as I remember Divine Ancestors are Earth Goddesses that were killed by the King of the End in order to extract their immortality for the energy source for his Sword. Every Steel has some characteristic to exploit the earth and the Kote has obviously the strongest characteristic. Also every Divine Ancestor is a servant for the Kote. Guinevere sacrificed her immortality in order to lessen the burden for the Kote to create the Holy Grail which basically has the same “authority” (suck the immortality of earth goddesses).
...okay, so which one is the right one now? I'm inclined to this one, but who knows.
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Old 2013-12-15, 20:12   Link #9129
edrey
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vol 6

Amongst magi, there were secret myths in circulation.

For example, amongst the great mother goddesses of the earth conquered by dragon-slayers like Perseus, there were those who were weakened, fallen, or driven from their divine thrones. They were the witches known as [Divine Ancestors].

Human in form, but not human.

Possessing supernatural powers surpassing humans but inferior to gods, these girls remained forever young and never succumbed to old age.

By abandoning their eternal longevity, they could regain their unruly divinity of the mother earth goddess, or in other words, revive themselves in the form of a dragon or snake god


there are two points here, the divine power and the divine spirit, the gods of steel take the earth power, but that is not enough to make earth goddess fall or athena wouldn'T had said that she would return, when she loss her power thank to the holy grail, so the divine spirit must be the important point. artio will become a divine ancestor, that s what i bet
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Old 2013-12-15, 20:36   Link #9130
Feng Lengshun
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That might not be entirely reliable because we're talking about Magi who has only gave a 'name' for Godslayers in 18th century when they've existed much longer. Same magi which is much less competent than the Blackwatch of all things (at least MIaL version, anyway). I won't take their words for what it is, and I'm more inclined to the Artos-related one due to my memory.
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Old 2013-12-15, 20:52   Link #9131
edrey
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true, but putting a limit to only kote and no other gods is where i disagree

changing the topic, i have a question how gods and godslayers sense eachother

godou couldn't sense lancelot because of the curse but why the great sage couldn't sense anni when she was without her mask? they felt the ego of the other or something like that? i don't get it
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Old 2013-12-15, 21:20   Link #9132
Feng Lengshun
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By some sort of magical presence, it seems. Well, from what I've seen, it's more by their "Potent" their magic power is. Lancelot was reduced to a normal human by her own curse, so he didn't sense her. Same with Annie, but I think her authority has a role in it too. They mostly felt it by "Instinct".
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Old 2013-12-15, 21:28   Link #9133
Ickarium
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The books imply that a Campione's and God's instinct is based on the same sort of process that witches and mikos use to access knowledge in the Netheworld. Just a different sort.

I'm really not sure why Annie wasn't sensed. But yeah, it may be she has an actual Authority that helps hide her.
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Old 2013-12-15, 21:32   Link #9134
black prince
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Originally Posted by edrey View Post
true, but putting a limit to only kote and no other gods is where i disagree

changing the topic, i have a question how gods and godslayers sense eachother

godou couldn't sense lancelot because of the curse but why the great sage couldn't sense anni when she was without her mask? they felt the ego of the other or something like that? i don't get it
you mean when Lanceleot give him the curse of Insane Rush
she sealed her divine name that time. god power related with their identity which formed by the myths. sealing their name would mean sealing their power too

when god (or goddess) encounter with Campiones, it'll make them raise Campiones magical power cosequently alert the god about Campiones presence.

Annie w/o mask means she doesn't activate her power as Campione thus don't alert the Great Sage that she is Campione
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Old 2013-12-15, 21:55   Link #9135
edrey
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Originally Posted by black prince View Post
you mean when Lanceleot give him the curse of Insane Rush
she sealed her divine name that time. god power related with their identity which formed by the myths. sealing their name would mean sealing their power too

when god (or goddess) encounter with Campiones, it'll make them raise Campiones magical power cosequently alert the god about Campiones presence.

Annie w/o mask means she doesn't activate her power as Campione thus don't alert the Great Sage that she is Campione

that is false, they don't need to activate their powers to sense eachother, the first meeting between athena and godou is good example, it must be something between the lines of spirit vision and instint, a combination of these two

annie has two personalities, that must help her in someway, like the wish of being a normal person and accepting being a godslayer
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Old 2013-12-15, 22:17   Link #9136
Hidfe
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I was wrong. Not only the Kote can do it but the majority of Steel can do it. If the Goddess is defeated with some kind of authority which exploits the earth the Goddesses will be reborn as a Divine Ancestor and has to server the one who defeated her. The question is only for how long. For example if the God who did that to them is killed can they return to being a herectic god permanently or even then are they cursed to be reborn as Ancestors for eternity.

Quote:
The Holy Grail's creation was almost fifteen hundred years ago.
However, the Divine Sword of Salvation had existed even before that. The king who manifested at the end of ages — was the war god who was the divine sword's original user. What did that imply?
In other words, even without the Grail, the Divine Sword of Salvation could still be used.
Before Guinevere's previous incarnation and Lancelot had joined under his command, the "King of the End" had already wielded the divine blade countless times.
The Divine Sword of Salvation was fueled by the life force of the earth—
So before the Holy Grail existed, how was it provided to the sword?
The answer was simple. The "King of the End," strongest amongst [Steel], provided it himself.
So-called heroes of steel were themselves warriors who fought against the mother earth goddesses. In the myths, they defeated desperate mother earth goddesses who had turned into dragons and snakes, thereby obtaining power. Furthermore, they would often take as their lovers or supporters the mother earth goddesses who had been reduced to the form of young girls.
The majority of [Steel] possessed the attribute of exploiting the earth.
In that sense, it was only natural for Him to be called the strongest man. In fact, there was no other war god who could surpass him in this domain.
The so-called Holy Grail, was the divine artifact offered to the "King of the End" for the purpose of lessening his labors.
For the first time, Lancelot imitated his former master's authority of exploitation.
Furthermore, Lancelot was also [Steel]. He believed he could surely achieve the same thing. Gambling upon this belief he yelled out the spell words — and it worked as expected.
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Old 2013-12-15, 22:36   Link #9137
black prince
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Originally Posted by edrey View Post
that is false, they don't need to activate their powers to sense eachother, the first meeting between athena and godou is good example, it must be something between the lines of spirit vision and instint, a combination of these two

annie has two personalities, that must help her in someway, like the wish of being a normal person and accepting being a godslayer
my bad forgot to include instinc into my reasoning and bad wording
what you said true too but I don't think I'm completely wrong. at least part about they intinctively (forgot to include this word ) raise magical power when they meet gods or they intinctively (again forgot this ) realize that they facing gods

totally forgot about Annie double personalities
you may right about it helped her to fooling Great Sage's instinct

I prefer instinc over spirit vision coz spirit vision should be ability exclusively for hime-miko, witch and divine ancestor (all 3 related with Earth Mother Goddess in one way or another) though i maybe wrong about this
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Old 2013-12-16, 01:21   Link #9138
Raziel07
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Originally Posted by Hidfe View Post
I was wrong. Not only the Kote can do it but the majority of Steel can do it. If the Goddess is defeated with some kind of authority which exploits the earth the Goddesses will be reborn as a Divine Ancestor and has to server the one who defeated her. The question is only for how long. For example if the God who did that to them is killed can they return to being a herectic god permanently or even then are they cursed to be reborn as Ancestors for eternity.
You are wrong, this quote doenst prove anything except that any [Steel]releated god can use the white sword, it was said in the series around the part that guinevere and alec became central on the history, divine ancestors are reincarnated mother earth godess, it IS a choice imbued on then, whem their lives end they can choose to be reborn as lesser beings think of it like fairies, that are an echo of who they were as a god or to go to the boundary and be there till the end of times, there is another choice too that is completely disappear and let the soul wander the earth until his myth is solid enough to matteralize in another form, so as myths change with time their manifested form would be differente too

in Resume
Mother Earth Goddess>Divine Ancestors

And to regain their former porwers they sacrifice their lives and turn into a snake god/dragon who is powerful but mortal
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Old 2013-12-16, 02:37   Link #9139
bludvein
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I don't think the "choice" is entirely voluntary. It was stated that Athena would have reincarnated as a divine ancestor if her divine spirit was held by the holy grail for too long.
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Old 2013-12-16, 02:42   Link #9140
Feng Lengshun
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And has a reason been stated for why that would happen? Or at least another statement that could be used as a basis for a hypothesis of the reason?
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