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Old 2014-01-30, 06:15   Link #9241
Feng Lengshun
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^ Disputing about legends. It's like we don't have enough of that in the LN that it must be brought here...

On Ama's power, it's all speculah. Godou ain't ever demonstrated feat about any extra power (or did he?), so can't say anything about it. No feat, no proof. No proof, not canon. Unless someone can bring quotation about it? I'm not very sure, last time I read the earlier volumes was when it was just translated after all (around the time the anime was done airing IIRC).
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Old 2014-01-30, 10:20   Link #9242
Superbia
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The confusing thing is that in the legend while the Ama-no-Murakumo-no-Tsurugi was in Susanoo's possesion, it didn't control the wind. But later when it came into Yamato Takeru's possesion it could control the wind.

Also, does Ena's wind based powers come from Ama, Susanoo's power, or her own technique?
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Old 2014-01-30, 10:46   Link #9243
Breimoon
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i think she uses her grampa's power as for the wind.
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Old 2014-01-30, 12:39   Link #9244
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if I am not mistaken the sword became part god because of its time with Susanoo it may have already carried the power to absord and copy powers hence being in close contact for so long it could have copiied his power
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Old 2014-01-30, 16:28   Link #9245
RpR1337
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The sword is like "a cheap copy of Susano". That was a quote from the LN featuring Ama and Ena, Feng (said by Godou in the Netherworld, wielding the Warrior while having an understanding of its divinity).
Breimoon/chrono: the verses Ena use (actually a collection of old japanese literature) are Susano's, or Ama's verses (depending on the situations). But Ama's verses always include Susano, while Susano's verses actually refer more to "the land of Susa" then he himself.

I think it's safe to say that the divine power belongs to both of them (since when using Divine Posession, it's sometimes stated that Ena is filled with Susano's power, other times that she's filled with Ama's).

Also, there are certain interesting facts about that sword and the "dual partnership". As of now, if memory serves me right, once used with the authorities of Verethragna, it manifests in a certain form easily (as stated in "Transient Holy Night", where he easily summons the mixed sword for slicing apart Divine Artifacts, even though the first drawing of that sword was ... khm, "heavily strenuous" ). Up to date, it was combined with the Goat to create magnetic fields, the Warrior to create the Divine Artifact slicing sword, the Boar to give it extra destructive power (really, as if it needs that at all - all hail OP Boar), and most recently the Wind to give Ena the "Sword of Wind", the new, more powerful (and probably a helluva lot safer) trump card than her Divine Posession. In truth, I don't see any use in fusing it with the Youth or the Ram, but apart from these, there's still the Camel, the Bull, the Bird of Prey and the White Stallion. Supposing they can be fused with Ama, he still has a lot of trump cards to offer.

Also, don't forget that when he fought Sun Wukong, he himself (apparently without any interference from Ama) fused two authorities together when he created his new power (dubbed by my magnificent and incredible naming sense) the "Disco Ball" - artificial white sun which shot the swords in the form of laser beams. Supposing he can fuse his powers even without help from Ama (F.e. my mind's eye sees him dualcasting the Camel and the Goat to do some magic melee mayhem, or the Bull and the Wind to produce something like shockwaves or sound explosions, or maybe a pairing of the Camel and the Raptor combined with wielding Ama to make an invincible warrior? Who knows.), he might even go beyond his dear Nee-san in martial power. Also, not to forget that he himself still has some unexpected skills when using "outsourced" incarnations (like the charging ability he gains when he uses the Boar ... sigh, why doesn't the author elaborate it once it's been flunged out in the open when he duels Erica ...), which means even more crazy stuff. Truly, a "Warlord of ever changing forms". I can barely stop my brain from imagining the sheer awesomeness

Well, as for myths, why not speak about them? It's a very interesting topic after all.
So, in accordance with that, let me throw a new discussion out there (Feng, apart from grumbling a lot, is in fact quite an awesome partner in discussions after all) - it was probably mentioned somewhere in the abyss of 460 pages, but who could that "King of the End" be?

And to facilitate the start, I guess I'll share my deductions.

Spoiler for King of the End:


Well, these are my takes on the question at hand. If anyone else has any other ideas, please, share and elaborate. I might have overlooked some details, since it's been 6 years I last studied mithologies.

Last edited by RpR1337; 2014-01-30 at 16:53. Reason: Typos, second thoughts
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Old 2014-01-30, 17:00   Link #9246
Kadi
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Hmm...

Spoiler for Bla:
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Old 2014-01-30, 19:41   Link #9247
haseo0408
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Originally Posted by Kadi View Post
Hmm...

Spoiler for Bla:
I have problem with Jason beside thos already mention, many scholars consider that even when the Argos was full of well known heroesyou canīt really count Jason among them, the actions he took in his life were beyond selfish and terribly cruel specially in Medeaīs case. The King of the End was in theory a hero in all the sense of the word with great charm towards women, Jason doesnīt really fit at all.
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Old 2014-01-30, 19:49   Link #9248
Kadi
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True, but Jou-chan may very well re-interpret his story as a tragedy, where he suffers from circumstance and ill will and not from dickishness to the extreme. And it may have been retconned in the meantime, but according to Athena the KotE did suffer from women's hands at some point...



Btw, on BT, there is now a topic with all the available information on Vol 16. It is... underwhelming.

*goes back to re-reading Meiyaku no Leviathan*
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Old 2014-01-30, 19:57   Link #9249
haseo0408
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True, but Jou-chan may very well re-interpret his story as a tragedy, where he suffers from circumstance and ill will and not from dickishness to the extreme. And it may have been retconned in the meantime, but according to Athena the KotE did suffer from women's hands at some point...



Btw, on BT, there is now a topic with all the available information on Vol 16. It is... underwhelming.

*goes back to re-reading Meiyaku no Leviathan*
Itīs going to be short stories for what it seems, well to be expected after the awesome arc last time. By the way, Kadi-san if it is Jason the suffering at the hands of a woman my refer to Medea did to him in his wedding, never cheat on a sorceress with a bad tempere, hell, for all we know Medea might have been the first yandere along with goddess Ishtar.
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Old 2014-01-30, 20:05   Link #9250
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I should point out that with Heretic Gods, you'll need to distinguish between the original myth that the god manifested from and the subsequent traits circulating after the god began to walk the earth. For example, the wandering aspect could very well be describing the King of the End AFTER he was summoned.

As for the Argonauts connection, the King of the End doesn't need to be one of the actual members on the Argo. Circe's hint was simply to search the lineages there, meaning that ancestors and descendants of the Argonauts also qualify.
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Old 2014-01-30, 20:34   Link #9251
haseo0408
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Originally Posted by zzhk View Post
I should point out that with Heretic Gods, you'll need to distinguish between the original myth that the god manifested from and the subsequent traits circulating after the god began to walk the earth. For example, the wandering aspect could very well be describing the King of the End AFTER he was summoned.

As for the Argonauts connection, the King of the End doesn't need to be one of the actual members on the Argo. Circe's hint was simply to search the lineages there, meaning that ancestors and descendants of the Argonauts also qualify.
Wow, considering that huge was packed with heroes, demigods and even kings thatīs pretty long list. Hell, everyone in the ship was a candidate to become an Heretic God so itīs no wonder the King of the End might be a descendant of the crew, as I said before I hope Circe was right and itīs not Jason, he didnīt have any kids, did he?.
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Old 2014-01-31, 01:06   Link #9252
Superbia
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Originally Posted by zzhk View Post
As for the Argonauts connection, the King of the End doesn't need to be one of the actual members on the Argo. Circe's hint was simply to search the lineages there, meaning that ancestors and descendants of the Argonauts also qualify.
Actually, Circe doesn't even say that he's connected to Argonauts, but the Argo itself. This might mean that instead of the crew, they have to look into the background of the story itself, which supposedly has ties with Nart Sagas of Caucasus.
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Old 2014-01-31, 02:14   Link #9253
RpR1337
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Jason did have kids, it's just that they were butchered by Medea for his betrayal.

Most of the descendants of the Argonauts were just as underwhelming as the info about the next volume, apparently. They themselves were the pinnacle of greek heroes after all.

Haseo - Jason excluded from the argonauts for that weak a reason? Man, he was both the assembler of the crew, and the leader of the expedition. And most of the greek heroes, if you look up some details on them, "weren't approved by the ethics comittee", so to speak. Like slaying villagers/priests/guards etc etc, sacking villages, kidnapping maidens, desecrating temples, and god knows how many more "vile acts" (it was only natural, so ...).

Superbia/zzhk - she talks about the pedigree of Argo, which is a term in greek mithology referring to the argonauts, "the voucher to become one of Argo's crew", meaning the greatest greek heroes. Well, to be honest, I'm not sure how much you know of the argonauts, but there aren't all that many "great ancestors" they have there (other than f.e. Heracles and Perseus' father Zeus, Theseus' father Poseidon, etc etc), nor do they have "striking descendants" (the only known descendant I can think of off the top of my hat would be Heleus, son of Perseus, grandson of Zeus). Well, the ones actually worth mentioning even from the crew itself would be (in no particular order) Perseus, Theseus, Heracles, Jason, Argos, Castor and Pollux. All the others are "technically fodder", not really known names (they did have their moments of glory thouh, just vastly overshadowed by the aforementioned men).

Kadi - Jason in fact had luck with women ... he did get familiar with one too many of them after all. Heck, he only got to the golden fleece because of him seducing Medea. He was a problematic individual who brought suffering to the women through his unfaithful ways. As stated above, that's the reason why he died a morbid death of having a whole ship whacked on top of his head by Hera.
Also, about Heracles - he did in fact suffer because of women, because at his own wedding, he was (though, unintentionally) killed by his own spouse. As for the other concern, he really wasn't that much of a hero. He was indeed one with valorous deeds, but just as much as he was a hero, he was also a brutish and cruel avenger at times (look up a bit about his history for references). He also enjoyed tests of mettle, which would nicely fit with the King of the End's attitude towards Godou when they met in the past. And one more thing - stating that it is his unavoidable destiny to fight Devil Kings, but being tired of it nevertheless, is just as if it was "another labor". I might be seeing too much into this, but he speaks of his destiny exterminating Devil Kings as if it were an unavoidable task like the twelve labors, but thoroughly stressing and unappealing.
Well, might just be my imagination.

EDIT: where and when was Hecate mentioned in the LN? I've read every volume, but I don't remember any reference about her ...

Last edited by RpR1337; 2014-01-31 at 02:37.
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Old 2014-01-31, 10:13   Link #9254
Feng Lengshun
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Jason is more towards the heavily favored kind of hero rather than actual hero or seducer. It was more because the gods made Medea fell heads over heels for him that he was able to get the Fleece. This also reminds me of another hero with a lot of favors going on his back: Perseus. Oh, and the resulting personality. I dunno, but with Jason it didn't really match with KotE's personality.

On Heracles, I remember that the reason for his death was a betrayal/backstabbing but it was partly his fault too. I think that one of the people he had wronged during his journey whispered to his wife or something, telling her to put the hydra's poison on his coat. Or was it Hera? I forgot. Though the guy was so badass that his reflexive reaction right after wearing it killed the guy who put it on him, on pure accident. Then he needed to be burned on a pyre so that he can finally die. That's right, one of the world's deadliest poison can't kill him. Sure, it sticks, makes him feel very painful, and it has no cure, but it isn't killing him either. The guy was too badass for that. Add up that he actually tries to atone for a mistake that he actually didn't make... yeah, this is one of the few actual hero in legends. This guy is one of the few that is at least as badass as Odysseus if not more.

Personally though, from what I've seen of KotE, it seems that he's from a rather 'inconclusive' or 'open-ended' myth. I don't know, something about how the character had acted made me think so, it just feels weird for it to be something conclusive like Heracles. Of course, then again, there's Sun Wu Kong. His myths are pretty conclusive yet he still acted... like that. Like none of the character development happening through the story ever happened.

Also, at least call it "The Sun" instead of "disco ball". And poor Sun Wu Kong had handled it shows the performance of this verse against JoJo verse... whelp, a crossover would be kind of hard considering how broken the powers in the latter could get (don't mind me, just been having quite a lot powerlevel debate lately and discussing possible Campione crossovers). And me grumbling? (Puffs cheek) I don't grumble (goes off to sulk).

Still, there's just one question I'm wondering: Can (Heretic) Gods have character developments? I mean, that's not the feature in their story, they're more like ideas given form (more apt than I thought...). Not only that, in-story, Athena was still the same even in her deathbed, still about battle, battle, battle. On the other hand, there are the Old Ones (or whatever Cthulhu reference they're referring those Under World backer of HCC), they're more wise than normal divine being, but that can be attributed to them calming down after hundreds of years... or having character developments from living for hundred of years. Still, if it was possible, then personality matching didn't really matter considering that KotE can just "had a character development hence why he was different from the myths" in which case I'm flipping my tables in rage.
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Old 2014-01-31, 10:20   Link #9255
Breimoon
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the problem with myths is that you don't just consider the myth itself but its origin, how it changed from the original, hero prototypes etc so things get harder for those who have not studied myths at school/home but just read a few. So while there may be Heracles elements its true name may be different.
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Old 2014-01-31, 10:20   Link #9256
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Actually, a god is only called "Heretic" when he/she enters the mortal realm. The most obvious case is the True Lord Erlang story, the guy can only maintain his benevolent and noble characteristics because he didn't fully manifest in the human world. If he does, he will just become another Heretic Gods that cause nothing but disasters
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Old 2014-01-31, 15:04   Link #9257
RpR1337
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Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun View Post
And me grumbling? (Puffs cheek) I don't grumble (goes off to sulk).
Well, if that gets you through the night bro

Quote:
Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun View Post
Still, there's just one question I'm wondering: Can (Heretic) Gods have character developments? (...) Athena was still the same even in her deathbed, still about battle, battle, battle. (...) Still, if it was possible, then personality matching didn't really matter considering that KotE can just "had a character development hence why he was different from the myths" in which case I'm flipping my tables in rage.
Hope my makeshift double quoting works out.
Well, I myself think that they do have "character development". After all, if you think back on Lancelot, I can 120% say that she didn't have the character (and annoying speech) of a XVII. englishman 1500 years prior, when she manifested. That kind of attitude and behaviour should be the product of hundreds of years of accumulated experience, observation, and effort. Also, thinking back on Circe, she probably had a "normal" relationship with that annoying Alec (at least without the arm-and-leg-tearing stuff). Just an example there, but it's quite logical to say that those who find something "worth their time" would change (as did Athena, who after hinting on perhaps a bit of romance - blame the kind of fate we had between us - smiled in a way that even made Godou suprised). At least, that's my take on it.

Also, usually Heretic Gods are counter to their original myths. As stated above by Ultragunner. For example, a defender of city walls would try to sink cities (Melqart). Or perhaps a hero god who protects would start abusing his authority and torment people (Verethragna). After all, "breaking out of their myths and thereby manifesting is what makes them Heretic Gods".

EDIT: oh, btw, the one who gave Heracles' spouse the shirt with the venom was a centaur, don't ask his name though, cause' it just eludes me right now.
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Old 2014-01-31, 15:51   Link #9258
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I think there are some aspects of Herakles that people are mistaken about. For one, the guy wasn't that much of a hero. Sure, Zeus saw him fit to be a god and took him up to Olympus, but most of the time Herakles was just acting on his anger. He killed a teacher just because the teacher did what many teachers do and scolded a troublemaker. He also killed his sons just because he saw them as enemies (granted, Hera made him see them as enemies, but still - I doubt their actions were reason enough to kill them). That, along with his wife dying of a broken heart, sent him on the whole labors quest. And one time he killed a king because a friend of his was killed by the king's horses. Which may seem fine (you know, eye for an eye), but the horses were originally stolen from the king by Herakles. Again, not so heroic, son of Zeus.

As to how Herakles died, the coat he wore that was covered in poison was given to him by his second wife, because she was scared he was falling for another girl. Now, she had thought the poison was actually a love potion. This was because years before she had been kidnapped by a centaur named Nessus, and Herakles had used his Hydra-poison-tipped arrows to shoot him down. Nessus figured out what killed him and knew his blood was now tainted, so as a last measure of revenge, he lied to Herakles' wife and told her his blood was the love potion. The poison would have been a slow and painful death for Herakles, so he decided he wanted go down in flames (literally). At that moment Zeus made him a god. But all that wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been a philandering idiot in the first place.
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Old 2014-01-31, 15:59   Link #9259
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Pretty much all the Greek gods were dicks, yeah. Even the 'least dickish' of them like Artemis, Athena, Hephaestus, and Hades did really bad things, depending on what you're looking at. Transformation-Murder, Transformation-Torture, Rape, and Stalking-Rape respectively, for the usual suspects for those.
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Old 2014-01-31, 16:41   Link #9260
RpR1337
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Can't say I share the thoughts mentioned, but can't say I'll argue againtst them either ...
Little correction on Heracles: killed his sons because he was mislead by magic by a jealous Hera. Yea, suppose you could've done something about that, while being in a state akin to a heroin addict running from UFOs right?
Wife dying of a broken heart - yup, but her heart didn't break because of Heracles, but because of the deaths of their children, which was because of Hera.
Killed a king because his horses killed his friend which were stolen by him ... stealing horses repaid with murder ... yea, can't simpathize with that.

Stop thinking with a XXI. century head. Being a hero in the time of Odyssey and Iliad wasn't about chivalry. It just wasn't that kind of a world.

P.S. : Hades, being the "least dickish"? Man, you've got one wild imagination
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