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Old 2014-01-31, 16:55   Link #9261
teejmo
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Actually, Hades wasn't really that bad of a guy. Sure, he kidnapped Persephone. But that's really it for his "dickish" actions. And even in that case, some accounts say that the goddess of spring ended up falling in love with him. He was also willing to let her go, but because she had eaten some Underworld pomegranates she had to stay there. Granted, other accounts say he tricked her into eating them, which can't be helped.

The only reason why Hades is really seen in a bad light is his status of "Lord of the Dead". And for the Greeks, who were obsessed with facts and such, the great unknown that is death made Hades out to be the bad guy. The reason why there aren't very many stories and myths associated with Hades is because the Greeks were absolutely terrified of death.
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Old 2014-01-31, 16:56   Link #9262
Ickarium
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What he said, really. Western civilization, especially Hollywood, tends to demonize him and use him as a Satan analogue, but he really was not.

Persephone was the main thing he did wrong. And compared to a lot of other Greek deities? He was positively benign. Really the point. Every Greek deity in myths did SOMETHING bad. Artemis according to many myths not only turned men into beasts to hunt if they saw her, but sometimes did it for -fun-, for instance.

Take Hephaestus. Totally woobie. Hera was a dick to him, he helped people, his wife cheated on him constantly.

... except for that time when Athena came to him and he tried to rape her. *sigh* Greeks, what can you do?
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Old 2014-01-31, 19:59   Link #9263
Feng Lengshun
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Greece doesn't really have a clear morality. The morality that they only have are "The strong rules," "Don't be prideful," and "Don't make the Gods angry." Which is basically the Darwinian morality, with an extra "Don't piss off anyone stronger than you" added into it.

There are a few actual heroes in it, but everyone's there are mostly badass without a clear morality. Considering that heroes originally meant "Demi-Gods" and Gods are more known as Anthropomorphized Concepts/Force of Nature than an actual person, it made sense for them to be between Human and God in term of morality and characterization. It's actually pretty though, the very first Hero there is was one of the most developed hero in classic history.

By the way, was King of the End even a Heretic God? I mean, for all we know, he might be of a different type or sub-species, kind of like the Pillar Men to Vampires in JoJo or maybe the Counter Guardian to Heroic Spirits in Nasuverse. Can someone bring a citation of KotE is actually a Heretic God?

PS: Am I the only one who feels like adding "Heika" to KotE here?
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Old 2014-01-31, 20:12   Link #9264
haseo0408
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Originally Posted by RpR1337 View Post
Jason did have kids, it's just that they were butchered by Medea for his betrayal.

Most of the descendants of the Argonauts were just as underwhelming as the info about the next volume, apparently. They themselves were the pinnacle of greek heroes after all.

Haseo - Jason excluded from the argonauts for that weak a reason? Man, he was both the assembler of the crew, and the leader of the expedition. And most of the greek heroes, if you look up some details on them, "weren't approved by the ethics comittee", so to speak. Like slaying villagers/priests/guards etc etc, sacking villages, kidnapping maidens, desecrating temples, and god knows how many more "vile acts" (it was only natural, so ...).

Superbia/zzhk - she talks about the pedigree of Argo, which is a term in greek mithology referring to the argonauts, "the voucher to become one of Argo's crew", meaning the greatest greek heroes. Well, to be honest, I'm not sure how much you know of the argonauts, but there aren't all that many "great ancestors" they have there (other than f.e. Heracles and Perseus' father Zeus, Theseus' father Poseidon, etc etc), nor do they have "striking descendants" (the only known descendant I can think of off the top of my hat would be Heleus, son of Perseus, grandson of Zeus). Well, the ones actually worth mentioning even from the crew itself would be (in no particular order) Perseus, Theseus, Heracles, Jason, Argos, Castor and Pollux. All the others are "technically fodder", not really known names (they did have their moments of glory thouh, just vastly overshadowed by the aforementioned men).

Kadi - Jason in fact had luck with women ... he did get familiar with one too many of them after all. Heck, he only got to the golden fleece because of him seducing Medea. He was a problematic individual who brought suffering to the women through his unfaithful ways. As stated above, that's the reason why he died a morbid death of having a whole ship whacked on top of his head by Hera.
Also, about Heracles - he did in fact suffer because of women, because at his own wedding, he was (though, unintentionally) killed by his own spouse. As for the other concern, he really wasn't that much of a hero. He was indeed one with valorous deeds, but just as much as he was a hero, he was also a brutish and cruel avenger at times (look up a bit about his history for references). He also enjoyed tests of mettle, which would nicely fit with the King of the End's attitude towards Godou when they met in the past. And one more thing - stating that it is his unavoidable destiny to fight Devil Kings, but being tired of it nevertheless, is just as if it was "another labor". I might be seeing too much into this, but he speaks of his destiny exterminating Devil Kings as if it were an unavoidable task like the twelve labors, but thoroughly stressing and unappealing.
Well, might just be my imagination.

EDIT: where and when was Hecate mentioned in the LN? I've read every volume, but I don't remember any reference about her ...
Wel RpR-san, most greek heroes werenīt saints thatīs for sure but Jason managed somthing unprecedented: he actually managed to pissed off every single god out there, he made an oath to Hera and broke it without even care, thatīs the one thing in the greek mythology you never do, the guy sure was full of himself and having the Argos crush him was an easy way to go considering what he deserved.
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Old 2014-02-01, 02:44   Link #9265
RpR1337
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Well, yup, that about sums it up, Haseo-san.

I will probably hurt the feelings of many people with what I'm going to say, but let me do so, and try to wiew it as "only talking in terms of logic and deduction stemming from obvious facts about theology". It has no goal or reason to hurt the feelings of pious believers at all, so simply wiew it as a hypothetical argument.

When I read that the gods are as strong as their egos (stated by Luo Hao and Smith/Annie in the Great Sage arc's climax), was the first time I actually believed that the author doesn't only analyze theology, but actually understands it. Because gods (in real myths, not only in Campione) are exactly that kind of existences.
The reason for this is that gods and myths are created by humans. While humans have a clear understanding of their own existence in regards to myths and theology, they just can't live without the thought of having someone watch over them. It's actually quite sad to say that humanity still hasn't learned how to walk on its own feet, and start believing in itself, so it still needs attachment to gods and the like. And those existences are always made out to be without the "doubt" factor that humanity has. Always omnipotent, always capable of things that human logic can't comprehend. It's actually quite ludicrous. "Yea, I'm a god. I can make an unstoppable force. I can also make an immovable object. Though if one exists, the other can't, but I can just put them in one box here, cause' I'm a god."

Take any god for an example. Odin, all in all, was just a man obsessed with his own status. He was prideful, and he brought disaster to many through his actions. As much as he was a valorous being, with battle prowess perhaps only overshadowed by his son Thor (who in actual fact was quite the asshole himself), he was simply an elitist. Same for Thor - just a prideful mercenary.

Gods in human mythologies really do feed off their own egos. That's because if humans were "elevated" to a god's stature, that's probably how they would act. Simply because they can't comprehend power beyond their own capabilities, they start having delusions about how it would be to have unlimited powers (when in fact, our meager brains can't even comprehend the meaning or scale of something "endless" at all). That's how these one-sided, fundamentally overpowered with omnipotence, but absolutely abysmal at personalities or traits, gods were born.

Allah, the one who created everything and rules over everything. "Hey, Allah, lots of people died there in that jihad thing!" "Huh, sorry, not my area."

It does get better though! Even the "God of Mercy" is no exception. In reality, if you go just by the Bible (written by man, organised by man, lectored by man and censored by man), does he really seem like someone merciful? Yea, "I am the God of Mercy who threw you guys out because you couldn't resist temptation (when in fact I made you to be unable to), then threw fireballs at your two cities, flooded your whole world and exterminated you, and wiped you many times, sparing only the ones I actually like. I played a prank on one of my boys to kill his son, just to see if he would do it if I taunted him to (yeah, though I'm omnipotent and omniscient, guess what, I had to check because I didn't know!), chose one tribe of yours and promised to kill all the others if they wanted, and even though I'm merciful and patient, I killed off even most of that tribe because they made some golden goat and liked it more than me. But now, we're here at this Jericho or whatsitsname, so I'll just carefully level the walls, so you guys can go in to rape and kill your kind, steal, lie, and break those ten commands I just gave you the other day."
In all honesty (leaving sarcasm aside), that's how it works. Also, think back at the whole crucification story. Jesus supposedly died for everyone on Earth, past, present and future, to pay penance for our sins. Yea, well, if you flip a few more pages to Revelations, you can see that the penance was so effective that we're gonna' have vengeful angels, disaster, plague, four horsemen, beast, serpent-dragon, etc etc dropped on our heads. It's like once he's decided it's about time, he'll say "Well, guess that's that!", and throw down the anteaters on the antfarm. Then of course, everyone will be judged (hey, wasn't everyone forgiven by the God of Mercy, and the penance of his son?), and if the scales aren't even, well, we can have a nice dip in Hell (at least the party's hot down there, and there are a lot of acquaintances too). But, seriously, Jesus hath said to his disciple - "Go and turn those who don't believe, save those who can't save themselves. Truth be told, even if we do, they're gonna' get busted anyways, so shucks!".

Something along those lines for greek gods as well. "I'm Zeus, the all-father!" (Nymphomaniac unfaithful skirt-chaser). Take Ares for example. Always "war, war, war". Two sides warring, and both asking his blessings. "Well, what should I do? I'm a god of war after all. Meh, guess I'll just bless the both of them, and watch as they kill each other. Better ask that lackey Hermes for popcorn before the battle starts."

All gods have a rather distasteful, one-sided and immoral personality. That's because they don't actually have moral capacity. And the reason for that is that they're all human fantasies. At the time the greek mythologies were created (mostly oral traditions), Heracles was an asshat because that was what it meant to be "badass" at that time. And if you read into it, I reject the notion of someone falling in love with someone other. Persephone, falling in love with Hades ... yeah, nice. Disregarding the fact that entire classic Greece was one big bachanalie and debauchery festival (or pre-historic swinger party, if that's better for you), did you know that Aphrodite was the wife of Hephaestus? Yup, little miss "love and spring" is a bigamist. And our "not-so-bad" Hades lusted after a married woman. Quite effectively at that.

That's just how it goes. In any mithology, gods style themselves and pose as something, and in all honesty, they aren't even close. You could say they're all "ill-natured", if you wish.

P.S. - well, I have the notion this post will soon get deleted for beng inappropriate. If push comes to shove, I'll just accept being branded an asshat, but in truth, I really did my best in trying not to hurt anyone's feelings. Consider this post simply "theological philosophy".
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Old 2014-02-01, 02:51   Link #9266
Ickarium
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I ... think you'll do better if your 'theological discussion' didn't brand anyone who had religious beliefs as metaphorical children.

As for the other, yes, my point was that the Greek Gods, even the best of them, had some nasty myths. I'd not say all mythologies did, however. And hell, some were weirder. Let's not get into the myths revolving around Enki and the river (Snowcrash didn't do too badly about this. Recursive masturbation anyone? :>)
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Old 2014-02-01, 04:38   Link #9267
RpR1337
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I ... think you'll do better if your 'theological discussion' didn't brand anyone who had religious beliefs as metaphorical children.
Nah, I don't have anything againtst believers. Well, fanatists and zealots are another topic altogether though. The Bible, f.e. imho is one of humanity's most beautiful storybooks. Not much more, since I consider it a work of intended fiction (then again, I won't stand againtst the fact that all fiction stems from real happenings).

Also, it's not as if I myself don't believe in some kind of higher power (even though I don't consider it to be "human" in the least bit, and even if it does exist, I think of it as something that is both uninvolved and in-understandable), but I sure as hell won't believe what others say about it. Even though the absolute mark of the fool is to brand anything outside of their experiences as "impossible", it doesn't mean people have to believe whatever (or in actual fact, anything) that others say. Basically, that's the gist of it.

Well, putting that aside, it's obvious that the moral code of past civilizations was vastly different to what we have now. Even in today's world, it's perfectly normal in some countries for 70+ old men to marry (heh, sure) and love (in other words, violate) young children not even 10 years old. It's just the way it goes over there.
From our moral standpoint, it's immoral for them to lay their hands on children. From their moral standpoint, it's immoral that girls and women around us expose their skin. Et cetera, et cetera. No one can say which one is right (not to mention, the whole idea of cultural equality is that no culture is inferior or supeior to any other).

When we think about Heretic Gods, in Campione terms of course, I believe we should think of them as an idealized metaphor to a natural disaster. Well, most myths and divinities stem from humanity's efforts to give a description for something they don't comprehend (take lightning, for example). If we work that in Campione style, these natural phenomenon would be "humanized", and get a yin-yang balance. Call the actual God in the heavens the light, and call the Heretic God the darkness. While Athena f.e. embodies death, earth, immortality and wisdom, she regulates (as her duty requires) the seasons, leads the dead through her realm, renews life at spring and culls it when winter comes, etc. As a Heretical God, that would get overturned to its dark side - the godess of death, unfazed by either her own, or any other's deaths. The godess of wisdom, using cunning tactics againtst her enemies. The godess of earth, turning everything from the fertile lands and its' bounties to sterile stone. Remember Aisha's wind (authority of Persephone, I believe) that heals wounds and gives life, but when overturned, brings death and winter? The works. That's how it goes, I believe.
Well, at least I believe that sums it up. So, even if a Heretic God originally embodied justice, becoming heretical means breaking out of his own myths (which fundamentally define its entire existence), so it would become injustice.

Last edited by RpR1337; 2014-02-01 at 04:53. Reason: Typos
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Old 2014-02-01, 06:40   Link #9268
Breimoon
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Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun View Post
Greece doesn't really have a clear morality. The morality that they only have are "The strong rules," "Don't be prideful," and "Don't make the Gods angry." Which is basically the Darwinian morality, with an extra "Don't piss off anyone stronger than you" added into it.
at least this is wrong for sure. In the book " la saggezza dei miti greci" from luc Ferry it clearly explains that in short you don't have to see the gods as beings with emotions. What they represent is the harmony and equilibrium and all the punishments they give to humans and not humansis because they go against this harmony itself.When in one of the stories king Mida was punished cause he choose the satyr's music(chaos) over apollo(harmony) it is for this reason that Apollo got angry. Furthermore to have a real harmony a little of chaos is needed and that is the reason Dionisio is one of the gods (he represents the chaos element) and why Gea gave birth to typhoon (to have zeus defeat the chaos element).
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Old 2014-02-01, 08:26   Link #9269
RpR1337
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at least this is wrong for sure. In the book " la saggezza dei miti greci" from luc Ferry it clearly explains that in short you don't have to see the gods as beings with emotions. What they represent is the harmony and equilibrium and all the punishments they give to humans and not humansis because they go against this harmony itself.When in one of the stories king Mida was punished cause he choose the satyr's music(chaos) over apollo(harmony) it is for this reason that Apollo got angry. Furthermore to have a real harmony a little of chaos is needed and that is the reason Dionisio is one of the gods (he represents the chaos element) and why Gea gave birth to typhoon (to have zeus defeat the chaos element).
Well, although I'm not one to use ad hominem in an argument, but I'll just look over the small details this one time.
1. As far as I know, Luc Ferry didn't write that book.
2. Even if he did, he's a politician (styled "philosopher"), and a secular humanist (a branch of humanism that bases the values of f.e. morality on human ethics, instead of something god-made), which rebukes theological morals completely.
3. I'll only briefly mention his involvement in something immoral and illegal (won't say any more, if anyone's interested, try getting details on the net, if you can read french, but if I do go ad hominem, might as well go all the way). As far as I'm concerned, I'd put him to the side as a citeable source.
EDIT: Reason for his disqualification (before this escalates further): trying to find conscious logical effort behind prudent nihilism is beating a dead horse. Asking a secular humanist to speak about the ties of theology and morals is like offering a chicken its own eggs for breakfast. Sorry to be cynical, it's my nature, you see.

Well, anyway, Midas was punished by Apollo for not choosing Apollo. Meaning Apollo's own ego. That's that. Harmony really isn't an existing factor in greek myths, since the whole stuff is built on discord and trouble.

Also, Dyonisus wasn't a "chaos" representing god. He was the god representing merriment, wine and debauchery.
Don't label debauchery, merriment and drinking/getting trashed in ancient greece chaos. Actually, it was most natural, meaning one could even argue that Dyonisus represented the sense of balance and natural desires of men instead.

Last edited by RpR1337; 2014-02-01 at 08:41.
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Old 2014-02-01, 11:34   Link #9270
haseo0408
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Well, yup, that about sums it up, Haseo-san.

I will probably hurt the feelings of many people with what I'm going to say, but let me do so, and try to wiew it as "only talking in terms of logic and deduction stemming from obvious facts about theology". It has no goal or reason to hurt the feelings of pious believers at all, so simply wiew it as a hypothetical argument.

When I read that the gods are as strong as their egos (stated by Luo Hao and Smith/Annie in the Great Sage arc's climax), was the first time I actually believed that the author doesn't only analyze theology, but actually understands it. Because gods (in real myths, not only in Campione) are exactly that kind of existences.
The reason for this is that gods and myths are created by humans. While humans have a clear understanding of their own existence in regards to myths and theology, they just can't live without the thought of having someone watch over them. It's actually quite sad to say that humanity still hasn't learned how to walk on its own feet, and start believing in itself, so it still needs attachment to gods and the like. And those existences are always made out to be without the "doubt" factor that humanity has. Always omnipotent, always capable of things that human logic can't comprehend. It's actually quite ludicrous. "Yea, I'm a god. I can make an unstoppable force. I can also make an immovable object. Though if one exists, the other can't, but I can just put them in one box here, cause' I'm a god."

Take any god for an example. Odin, all in all, was just a man obsessed with his own status. He was prideful, and he brought disaster to many through his actions. As much as he was a valorous being, with battle prowess perhaps only overshadowed by his son Thor (who in actual fact was quite the asshole himself), he was simply an elitist. Same for Thor - just a prideful mercenary.

Gods in human mythologies really do feed off their own egos. That's because if humans were "elevated" to a god's stature, that's probably how they would act. Simply because they can't comprehend power beyond their own capabilities, they start having delusions about how it would be to have unlimited powers (when in fact, our meager brains can't even comprehend the meaning or scale of something "endless" at all). That's how these one-sided, fundamentally overpowered with omnipotence, but absolutely abysmal at personalities or traits, gods were born.

Allah, the one who created everything and rules over everything. "Hey, Allah, lots of people died there in that jihad thing!" "Huh, sorry, not my area."

It does get better though! Even the "God of Mercy" is no exception. In reality, if you go just by the Bible (written by man, organised by man, lectored by man and censored by man), does he really seem like someone merciful? Yea, "I am the God of Mercy who threw you guys out because you couldn't resist temptation (when in fact I made you to be unable to), then threw fireballs at your two cities, flooded your whole world and exterminated you, and wiped you many times, sparing only the ones I actually like. I played a prank on one of my boys to kill his son, just to see if he would do it if I taunted him to (yeah, though I'm omnipotent and omniscient, guess what, I had to check because I didn't know!), chose one tribe of yours and promised to kill all the others if they wanted, and even though I'm merciful and patient, I killed off even most of that tribe because they made some golden goat and liked it more than me. But now, we're here at this Jericho or whatsitsname, so I'll just carefully level the walls, so you guys can go in to rape and kill your kind, steal, lie, and break those ten commands I just gave you the other day."
In all honesty (leaving sarcasm aside), that's how it works. Also, think back at the whole crucification story. Jesus supposedly died for everyone on Earth, past, present and future, to pay penance for our sins. Yea, well, if you flip a few more pages to Revelations, you can see that the penance was so effective that we're gonna' have vengeful angels, disaster, plague, four horsemen, beast, serpent-dragon, etc etc dropped on our heads. It's like once he's decided it's about time, he'll say "Well, guess that's that!", and throw down the anteaters on the antfarm. Then of course, everyone will be judged (hey, wasn't everyone forgiven by the God of Mercy, and the penance of his son?), and if the scales aren't even, well, we can have a nice dip in Hell (at least the party's hot down there, and there are a lot of acquaintances too). But, seriously, Jesus hath said to his disciple - "Go and turn those who don't believe, save those who can't save themselves. Truth be told, even if we do, they're gonna' get busted anyways, so shucks!".

Something along those lines for greek gods as well. "I'm Zeus, the all-father!" (Nymphomaniac unfaithful skirt-chaser). Take Ares for example. Always "war, war, war". Two sides warring, and both asking his blessings. "Well, what should I do? I'm a god of war after all. Meh, guess I'll just bless the both of them, and watch as they kill each other. Better ask that lackey Hermes for popcorn before the battle starts."

All gods have a rather distasteful, one-sided and immoral personality. That's because they don't actually have moral capacity. And the reason for that is that they're all human fantasies. At the time the greek mythologies were created (mostly oral traditions), Heracles was an asshat because that was what it meant to be "badass" at that time. And if you read into it, I reject the notion of someone falling in love with someone other. Persephone, falling in love with Hades ... yeah, nice. Disregarding the fact that entire classic Greece was one big bachanalie and debauchery festival (or pre-historic swinger party, if that's better for you), did you know that Aphrodite was the wife of Hephaestus? Yup, little miss "love and spring" is a bigamist. And our "not-so-bad" Hades lusted after a married woman. Quite effectively at that.

That's just how it goes. In any mithology, gods style themselves and pose as something, and in all honesty, they aren't even close. You could say they're all "ill-natured", if you wish.

P.S. - well, I have the notion this post will soon get deleted for beng inappropriate. If push comes to shove, I'll just accept being branded an asshat, but in truth, I really did my best in trying not to hurt anyone's feelings. Consider this post simply "theological philosophy".
You have point there, when I played Xenoblase one the characters told the protagonist that he canīt expect gods to fully understand mortals because theyīre two completely different kinds of existences. Itīs just like Susanoo said to Godou in their first meeting, gods wonīt destroy the entire human race but they donīt gasp the same concept of morals and death as we do.

What makes the King of the End so dangerous is that his authority at full power might trigger a world class catastrophie and thatīs it for human civilization, just like Lucrecia fear when she discuss it with Alice and Alex.
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Old 2014-02-01, 11:49   Link #9271
RpR1337
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You have point there, when I played Xenoblase one the characters told the protagonist that he canīt expect gods to fully understand mortals because theyīre two completely different kinds of existences. Itīs just like Susanoo said to Godou in their first meeting, gods wonīt destroy the entire human race but they donīt gasp the same concept of morals and death as we do.

What makes the King of the End so dangerous is that his authority at full power might trigger a world class catastrophie and thatīs it for human civilization, just like Lucrecia fear when she discuss it with Alice and Alex.
Not necessarily ... Sun Wukong said that if the populace dies out, then so be it. If the heavens fall, they'll just raise it again, after all, they are gods. He also said that even if the entire humanity goes extinct, the world will still revolve.
Also, Luo Hao said that the strenght of gods lie in their unshakable ego, to the point where even if heaven and earth changes completely or fall apart, they'll still eradicate humanity if they want to.
Well, something along those lines.

But yeah ... btw, follow-up for a question raised a bit back ... as for my opinion, the King of the End is definetly a Heretic God. Actually, the King of the End must be a Heretic God, because he doesn't care about the trouble he causes to others while exterminating the Devil Kings (under the pretense of exterminating them for the good of the people). That's too ambivalent for anything but a Heretic God. Even if he's a hero, his interests are too one-sided. He wants to eradicate the Devil Kings, because he has to. And his interests are too one-sided meaning he doesn't care about the populace. Having the short story about True Lord Erlang is actually wonderful, in order to understand the Heretic Gods' natures - fundamentally, I can say that Athena and Lancelot f.e. are actually sympathetic gods, while Sun Wukong and Perseus aren't. Not because I tend to dote on female characters (won't argue), but because they have a strangely "human" side to them. Most gods will hunt Devil Kings, while Athena actually teamed up with Godou. Lancelot affirmed the existence of humans, and she was even playing pranks, and openly flirting with Godou in the cafe when he was under the effects of "Insane Rush".
That's why True Lord Erlang (acting as an actual benevolent god) is something that should be, therefore, we get a means to understand the nature of Heretic Gods if we compare them to him. Or at least, that's what I try to do.
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Old 2014-02-01, 11:56   Link #9272
Kadi
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Hmm... to me, the story with True Lord Erlang is an eyesore :-/ There should be non-interference rules in place... hell, even Heretic Gods don't reveal information they're not supposed to... and here we have a true god trying to MAJORLY influence the world from the "beyond". Great. Oh, well, w/e.
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Old 2014-02-01, 12:05   Link #9273
haseo0408
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Originally Posted by RpR1337 View Post
Not necessarily ... Sun Wukong said that if the populace dies out, then so be it. If the heavens fall, they'll just raise it again, after all, they are gods. He also said that even if the entire humanity goes extinct, the world will still revolve.
Also, Luo Hao said that the strenght of gods lie in their unshakable ego, to the point where even if heaven and earth changes completely or fall apart, they'll still eradicate humanity if they want to.
Well, something along those lines.

But yeah ... btw, follow-up for a question raised a bit back ... as for my opinion, the King of the End is definetly a Heretic God. Actually, the King of the End must be a Heretic God, because he doesn't care about the trouble he causes to others while exterminating the Devil Kings (under the pretense of exterminating them for the good of the people). That's too ambivalent for anything but a Heretic God. Even if he's a hero, his interests are too one-sided. He wants to eradicate the Devil Kings, because he has to. And his interests are too one-sided meaning he doesn't care about the populace. Having the short story about True Lord Erlang is actually wonderful, in order to understand the Heretic Gods' natures - fundamentally, I can say that Athena and Lancelot f.e. are actually sympathetic gods, while Sun Wukong and Perseus aren't. Not because I tend to dote on female characters (won't argue), but because they have a strangely "human" side to them. Most gods will hunt Devil Kings, while Athena actually teamed up with Godou. Lancelot affirmed the existence of humans, and she was even playing pranks, and openly flirting with Godou in the cafe when he was under the effects of "Insane Rush".
That's why True Lord Erlang (acting as an actual benevolent god) is something that should be, therefore, we get a means to understand the nature of Heretic Gods if we compare them to him. Or at least, that's what I try to do.
Sun Wukong was selfish bastard be it in the era of Mythology or in the current world, you canīt expect much consideration from that guy but thatīs axactly my point, many gods sees us humans as necesary while other doesnīt even pay atention to us and we also have the selfish kind like Perseus or Sun Wukong that only care about having a good time. No wonder most campiones find the Gods of Steel so troublesome, their ego is inmense and the only deity more slef-centerd than them must be Narciso, I hope Godou never have to fight Ares because if the greek poems are at least 50% right thatīs the must problematic God of Steel after the King of the End.
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Old 2014-02-01, 16:15   Link #9274
RpR1337
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Originally Posted by haseo0408 View Post
Sun Wukong was selfish bastard be it in the era of Mythology or in the current world, you canīt expect much consideration from that guy but thatīs axactly my point, many gods sees us humans as necesary while other doesnīt even pay atention to us and we also have the selfish kind like Perseus or Sun Wukong that only care about having a good time. No wonder most campiones find the Gods of Steel so troublesome, their ego is inmense and the only deity more slef-centerd than them must be Narciso, I hope Godou never have to fight Ares because if the greek poems are at least 50% right thatīs the must problematic God of Steel after the King of the End.
No no no, I'd actually quite like to see (read) that fight Haseo-han. For me, the best moments in this entire series (of course, only and ONLY disregarding the female attacks Godou has to endure) are as follows:
-Piazza cracking in two
-Castello Sforzesca demolished
-Coliseum falling to ruin
-Tokyo Tower turning into a torch
-and being shaved clean of its top part
-Senjogahara's plains getting a decorative crater
-Nikkou torii crumbling
-Yokohama Bay Bridge sinking into the ocean
-Smaller scale demolition derby (Snapping a sakura in two when trying magic for the first time, sniping off the top levels of unnamed buildings with the White Stallion, etc etc).

To sum it up:
-All hail ultraviolet laser destruction White Horse
-All hail OP Boar
-All hail Goat wrecking thunderstorm

(because as Nabeshin said: "THERE ARE PLOTHOLES?!? EXPLOSIONS FIX EVERYTHING!")
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Old 2014-02-01, 17:27   Link #9275
Ickarium
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For the record, I disagree with the theory that Heretic Gods are the opposite of their normal selves. A god of Justice doesn't become a god of Injustice per se. He becomes the God of Knight Templars. They mention that lands with Sun Heretic Gods don't become dark, they become so full of sunlight that there's droughts. Sea gods create floods, and so on.

Basically Heretic Gods have no restraint. It ties into the ego thing, yeah. They simply push their 'portfolio/concept' with no sense of moderation. Verethragna kept fighting for Victory and hoping someone'd challenge him enough, and screw any issues. Melqart was the Chief God, so because no one worshipped him, he was going to blow away the entire Mediterranean island chain. Etc.
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Old 2014-02-01, 21:01   Link #9276
Feng Lengshun
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~Snip~
...you're discussing about religions in the internet? Discussing about myths is one thing but discussing about religion is another. You just don't discuss about religion in the internet. You're lucky this is AnimeSuki and not SpaceBattles. Would have gotten you infraction and a lot of "counter-arguments".

But really, you're generalizing. What rights do you have to generalize all the gods into "Ego ego ego"? Even the experts only leaves the origins on myths as postulation and theories, because you can't generalize all of them into a single case. Especially not using an LN as a basis. And about the author understanding myths... *snort*, yeah he knows a lot, but he'll be a bigger laughingstock than his basis, Robert Graves. You just don't use 'postulations' (imagination) in history and myths, you use hard proofs. And yes, you're generalization, by the way. There are 6 billion humans and countless myths and religion in this world, and you're saying that all of them has basis in egos and everyone who has a religion are weak? Really? Your argument is flawed from the start since it uses generalization as the basis, and if you don't want to generalize things, then bring hard proofs that it really is like that and not just some things you made with your mind following a general parameters.

Humans acting like that if they have the powers of Gods is just another generalization. You're basically ignoring another, much more ancient thoughts on human getting powers in the Ring of Gyges myths. Power themselves are neutral, it can corrupt but only if you let it, if you used it right then it can instead bless. People becomes corrupted by power because they don't have the strength of character to handle it (that MIGHT be the reason for why Heretic Gods acts like that, they're pretty much were recently born after all and don't get much social experience to grow a stronger characters), on the level of power of a God... that depends, if it's omnipotence then the best option is to turn it down unless you really need it. If it's just the level of just some standard polytheistic god level power, then they have no excuse but themselves.

But still, are we really doing this? I mean, we're arguing and discussing about vaguely defined fictional story mechanics and lore using actual real life basis for it. Not only is that taking it a bit too seriously, there are almost always a counter-theories when you use actual theories as a basis. But the worst thing is we're stepping into the forbidden circle of religion for it. Seriously? Also, do remember that Political Correctness is a thing. Especially important when you're talking about religion, especially Islam. I'm a fairly tolerant person, but even I'm annoyed by the way you're talking about it, especially the jihad thing (snort, it was really a blatant mistake that anyone who tries to learn about Islam and Jihad would have known).
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Old 2014-02-02, 02:37   Link #9277
RpR1337
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Originally Posted by Feng Lengshun View Post
...you're discussing about religions in the internet? Discussing about myths is one thing but discussing about religion is another. You just don't discuss about religion in the internet. You're lucky this is AnimeSuki and not SpaceBattles. Would have gotten you infraction and a lot of "counter-arguments".
Man, how I would like that. Clashing opinions and arguing aren't the same, there's a big difference. Though if it was only baseless arguing, I probably would get annoyed.

Well, of course, I agree that it is a bit of a fallacy. Though, I did say that I sure as hell won't believe anything someone else says, it's not like it's not the same for others. In fact, since (going a bit philosophical) I don't believe in the existence of something "objective" (if there's anything that everyone agrees on, I'd call it a fact), so everything is subjective. And that is a huge roadblock for using facts when thinking myths and history. Since for those, you don't actually have facts. It's more like "educated guesses based on the subjective data left behind by people long dead, which are either true, or big fat lies from the start". Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.
I wasn't trying to generalise (and I'm definetly not generalization by the way ). Call it more like "inductive reasoning". Though if you feel it was like that, then that's that, you're definetly allowed to have your own opinion on the matter.
One easy counter for what you say about power is that in the face of power, humans degenerate. Fact. There's no such thing as a "strenght of character" in a human that can handle that kind of power, and no human was able to remain "sane" getting close to it (kind of the reason why no one ever succeeded in uniting the world with power). That's my take on it anyway.

P.S.: about islam : if you saw anything political in that, despite my efforts, then I'll give home ground. That might've been a wrong move. I take it back.
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Old 2014-02-04, 02:29   Link #9278
zzhk
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V16 Cover:

(click for higher res)
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Last edited by zzhk; 2014-02-04 at 06:25. Reason: added higher resolution image
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Old 2014-02-04, 02:50   Link #9279
Chris38
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V16 Cover:
Nice, I have to say that the illustrator of the LN, has considerably improved, when it comes to drawing the LN covers.

After all, Godou looks considerably different, compared to how he was portrayed in the illustrations / covers of the previous volumes.
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Old 2014-02-04, 02:51   Link #9280
Awrya
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Cover looks amazing.

But Godou's design has changed quite a bit compared to previous covers and illustrations, looks much better now.
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