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Old 2014-02-22, 07:07   Link #9701
Feng Lengshun
Old Wine
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: In my Body
I think that's not exactly one ability... though it is pretty much one incarnation if a bit forceful on that.

On Kojou being non-tactical is more real... well, being tactical isn't entirely dependent on age. What does however, is strategy. In fact, I would argue that teenagers has better tactical capability than adults by virtue of them being okay with taking more risks than adults. Now, strategizing though... teenagers aren't known for their ability to think of the long term and organizing skill.
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Old 2014-02-22, 07:18   Link #9702
RpR1337
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Oh God, Oh God, Oh GOD, I wish I read the forum a bit more. Joining the conversation at this late a time is hard in and of itself, but having actually too much to say and trying not to make a wall of text (which I obviously will not, since I like walls of text too much to do so) makes it even harder.

Feng-sensei, we're actually running around in the same circle with all this "character development" stuff. People want sex scenes because they want a decisive happening, and can relate to that creating the atmosphere. I can relate to that as well, actually. It's simply the next logical step. Well, with DxD, there's also the thing about Rias' superiority, which won't make it with "I'm first!" forever. I'm guessing that no matter how far that series will go, he won't lay a hand on the other girls at least until they get married (which will probably be a quick and showdown-style decision, seeing as they have a flaxen-haired, and a silver-haired demon on the opposing team). Similarly, I doubt that the girls can even get a decent kiss before he gets laid with Rias. That's how I see it. Even though Rias, her family, and the entire devil race are fine with it, there's still an order to things (obviously decided by Rias' horrible complexes and wavering self-confidence, which stand in stark contrast to her painfully obvious lead role). So, what I'm saying is, since Azazel alredy wants to make bets on how many children Ise will have, it's totally certain what kind of a situation we will have in the end. But that doesn't make it alright, in the sense that until Rias gets what she wants, the way she wants it, she'll be jealous, and that's about it. (Please exclude Asia from the fray of women scurrying for a single man's attention. She's special, since she broke out of the deepest pits of the hell that is the "harem-protagonist friendzone", for which a proper name would be "The inner circle of the friendzone - the Unrelated-by-blood Sibling Containment Area".)

As for Campione! - I still think the de-fanging shizz isn't business. Man, that shit doesn't fly. As stated somewhere in the abyss back in the day, by someone I don't even remember (if you read this, I'm seriously sorry!), "Godou forgets that he's the most kickass when he's forcefully removed from his self-limitations". That's about right, I guess. The biggest question there really is about him (well, maybe in a bit of a philosophical sense) - is the part where he struggles for victory a part of his personality, or not? Because I think that if it is (and I do think that it is), then all this "self-imposed vow of chastity" is BS. Why would I say that?
Firstly, his victory rush is part of his personality. Not as a Campione, but as a person. Well before he slew a God, he was alredy a baseball player with average stats and specks, as he himself said, who struggled to the point where he found the kind of ducktape that can cover all the holes where he lacked (I think Asuka explained it, saying he was a shrewd and tricky player who employed mental warfare, taunts and careful observation, thereby eliminating a more capable opponent flawlessly as a baseball player. It's the same as his looks - a "dime in a dozen", says he and some girls who aren't too deep into him to see the risks, and in some sense, he's "a dime in a dozen, but without a single scratch or dent, to the point of being almost too unnatural, which even though makes him part of a decently average circle of people, also obviously detains him from the same circle at the same time", implied Asuka.), which means ~ sorry for the long intermission ~ that he alredy was a capable fighter mentally. To further imply that, take the opinion of Yinghua, who told Asherah that Campiones were abnormal monsters to begin with, they just got the "detectable and more easily designated" traits to go with that subtle personality flaw. So, long story short, he's a vicory maniac not as a Campione, but as a human being.
If we take that as a part of his personality, the things about his grandfather are the same. It's part of his personality that he's an inter-galactic heartbreaking criminal, so to speak. That can't even be argued. It's clear as day.
So, where do we stand after all that - Godou relishes in one part of his personality, albeit to different levels (When in human mode, he never gives up on victory, and seeks it in a subtle and almost mild manner, which would make that state akin to a sleeping volcano which has its share of magma flowing around, and in Campione mode, he just removes the lid of the bottle. You take my meaning, I guess.), while completely denies the other. Or at least tries, but fails miserably more and more as the story progresses. It's like an elongated siege where his carefully built walls are being torn down by the ladies. It's a fun and lovely skit, if I may say so myself.

And the grand conclusion would be - denying your own personality (or even parts of it) in a battle-styled japanese artwork is a one way ticket to get flushed down the toilet. Same as what Azazel told Koneko and Akeno. Yup, you have parts you don't like about yourself. Want to get stronger? Then get over it. Burying it will never help you reach your goals. I see the same trouble with Godou, and that's why I say that (even if not totally, at least to some degree) catering to his own innermost desires would make him stronger instead of weaker.

With that done, some smaller stuff that's not been said:

1. KUDOS FOR LILIANA, without any care for time, place, situation, etc etc. I don't bother myself with details.
2. Please don't get different series mixed up. Remember the crossover of Accel World and SAO? Never truly works. So many opportunities and thoughts, wishes and dreams, that if even one doesn't make it, you'll feel that you've been tricked. It's better to be a nihilist in that regard (because while the optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel, the pessimist sees the dark in the tunnel, the realist sees the approaching train, and the train driver sees three idiots standing around on the rails).
3. We're talking shonen fight - power level = drive.
Ise: the more boobs, the more power. The more danger to a world filled with soft and fragrant valleys of bliss (call it cleavage, if you want, but that's way more artistic, isn't it? ), the more pumped up he gets. Go watch S2E12, if you don't get my meaning. The more abnormal and perverted the situation is, the more abnormal and perverted the idiot gets. Golden.
Godou: the level of complication of obtaining victory, and the slimness of chances goes as far as his dedication. Well, maybe calling it dedication isn't the best to do. Let's say he can get more pumped. The more he has to lose, the wilder he's going to claw and bite himself to emerge victorious. He's that kind of guy. Golden.
4. Many old short stories suck. Many new short stories rule. A mix between the two is acceptable, but going too far for sales doesn't generate consumer goodwill.
5. Gimme moar Lancelot. As a rare occasion (not being one of that particular circle myself), I'm actually in the "blonde lovers' faction" this time.
6. And finally, Lived-han. We talked about this (dunno which thread it was). Don't give an epic climax seconds, and think about how it played out. All I can say to support that is:
Dragon BLOL, the last 10 seconds of Namek.

Cheers! (Finally back in action. I'll really try to follow the forum more closely to avoid writing this much in a single post ever again.)
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Old 2014-02-22, 09:45   Link #9703
GodSoul
He Who Would Swallow God
 
 
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I've been watching the blue flames of volume 16, has sword between the flames, not a new authority,But, blue flames and an authority arrows perseus,Now wait to see

or it could be perhaps Ame no Murakumo no Tsurugi + [swords]
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Old 2014-02-22, 09:55   Link #9704
Hokoga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RpR1337 View Post
Spoiler for RpR1337's Wall Of Text!:
MY GOD, how long did it take you to write this?
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"I'LL TWIST OFF YOUR FIVE TOES WITH PLIERS AND PUT A CENTIPEDE IN YOUR EAR.
TAKE YOU ON A DATE AT THE BOOKSTORE.
EVERYTHING IS GETTING SCRAMBLED GENTLY IN MY STOMACH.
" - Ken Kaneki

"....." - Me
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Old 2014-02-22, 10:42   Link #9705
Feng Lengshun
Old Wine
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: In my Body
Quote:
Originally Posted by RpR1337 View Post
~snip~
Dude, use spoilers. That would make things easier to read. Also, paragraphs and line break is a thing. Learn how to use it.

Sex is, in the grand scheme of the story, not important. I mean, what would having sex make anything different anyway? It's how you write the story and character developments that matters. For all intent and purpose, you can usually remove sex from any story (case to the point, the many eroge port to console). There are a few that makes it integral to the story (Eroninja, Monster Girl Saga, and Katawa Shoujo) and those are the examples of how usage of sex in the story should be. It all goes back to the litmus test of "Will this effects the plot?"

Spoiler for On Godou:


It's funny that an example of the quote and my analogy would be ZUN, who is best when he is drunk. Yet, we all know what will happen to alcoholics if they don't stop... wow, the words "drunk with power" is nearly litteral here.

Quote:
2. Please don't get different series mixed up. Remember the crossover of Accel World and SAO? Never truly works. So many opportunities and thoughts, wishes and dreams, that if even one doesn't make it, you'll feel that you've been tricked. It's better to be a nihilist in that regard (because while the optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel, the pessimist sees the dark in the tunnel, the realist sees the approaching train, and the train driver sees three idiots standing around on the rails).
3. We're talking shonen fight - power level = drive.
No, we aren't. We're talking about VS Debates. Rule on for VS Debates: Feats. We don't allow PIS and CIS, we only follow feats aka what HAS been done and proven. We don't which of the two is actually stronger, but we can compare feat to come to a conclusion who is stronger right now.

Crossovers can work. Right now I'm reading Fate/Revelation Online, SAO x F/sn which is even crazier than SAO x AW. It just proves that premise isn't everything, it's the execution (I love Monster Girl Quest for a reason; for such a terrible premise it was very well-executed).

Also, don't talk about optimism and pessimism around me. I'm one who thinks that both are stupid and that you should be realistic and objective. You don't project higher than it could possibly be but you don't automatically assume everything will be bad and achieving something is impossible.

Last edited by Feng Lengshun; 2014-02-22 at 15:00.
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Old 2014-02-22, 14:11   Link #9706
Kadi
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Hmm... that "give up on being human => become inhuman => problematic with lovers" part reminded me of quite a few of Japanese games where exactly that can happen. Ironically(?) it leads to the harem endings. It also involves judicious use of tentacles. Examples would include Kamidori Alchemy Meister's spiritual predecessor, I think, as well as ... quite a few, if not all, of the Venus Blood titles?


(If it's not clear, these games, and the endings in particular, are not exactly light, bright and happy. Look them up at your own discretion. Be sure you are of an appropriate and and mind. Stuff. You have been warned.)
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Old 2014-02-23, 00:38   Link #9707
Superbia
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During the fight with Sun Wukong, when Godou was using the warrior authority, he mentioned that three common themes for heroes of steel were "born from stone", "forged in fire", and "quenched in water", mimicking the method steel for swords is made.

Goudo's black blade seems to be going through a similar development. First born from stone (earth goddess Athena), then forged in fire (sun goddess Circe). So does anyone know of another female goddess known for wisdom and associated with water that could end up giving the finishing touches to it?
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Old 2014-02-23, 00:46   Link #9708
Richocet
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Lady of the lake?!?!
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Old 2014-02-23, 00:51   Link #9709
bakapervert
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Does it need to be goddess? Maybe Melqart can fill the role.
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Old 2014-02-23, 00:58   Link #9710
bludvein
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakapervert View Post
Does it need to be goddess? Maybe Melqart can fill the role.
It's Godou, of course it would be a goddess. Assuming he fights Melqart again at all, it would just be a standard death match deal. I can't picture him offering to "finish" the black blade.

The theory is kind of interesting, but what else can be done to it? Athena gave him access, and Circe gave him control. Everything else is all Godou's end.
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Old 2014-02-23, 01:02   Link #9711
Feng Lengshun
Old Wine
 
 
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Well... the Lady of the Lake maybe? Alternatively, it could also be blood. It might also be Athena again too (her head cut off and the blood became Pegasus and she's wisdom).
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Old 2014-02-23, 03:53   Link #9712
RpR1337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokoga View Post
MY GOD, how long did it take you to write this?
About 10 minutes, or so.

Meh well, Feng, I see your point. (Btw, the text itself was broken more-or-less, but the lines fill up the space and it's not all that much visible. I'm bad at after-editing, mostly I just proof-read.) But, I still think that you should consider ... well, how should I put it.
Spoiler for Long version ...:


Whenever you say or write "I don't get why people do/say/think" style sentences, this is basically the answer. You don't get why people would want sex scenes and things that "wreck" the complex machinations of the stories. Because they can relate easier, since the thing we call "the masses" isn't on the upper staircase. That's how they think, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Also, some people might simply enjoy it more that way. In a sense, I'm referring to myself here. I love romcom, but there are still things I hate, f.e. "embarrassment". Can you give me at least 5 scenes where embarrassment really did work not as intended, but as it was meant to be? It's definetly possible, but not at all easy. Romcom tends to drop being realistic in favor of being enjoyable. I welcome that fact to a certain degree, because my sole reason to be a good consumer and "enjoy modern japanese art" (also known as become an akiba-type) is to have fun.

Spoiler for On Godou:


And finally, a few words on the "VS debate" - sorries, it's just that you're spinning my gears and pushing my buttons, so it's hard to watch.

EDIT: Don't misunderstand me. I question your beliefs simply because we're talking Campione here. But it's a fantasy, and fantasy grabs people through their own imagination, instead of logical thought process. If we were talking f.e. KimiMachi here, I'd agree with you without a second thought. Honest.

(There, I tried to shorten it. Hope that works.)

Last edited by RpR1337; 2014-02-23 at 04:03. Reason: Sonething I forgot ...
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Old 2014-02-23, 05:27   Link #9713
Feng Lengshun
Old Wine
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
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Spoiler for On Popularity:

Spoiler for the Effectivity:

Spoiler for Interpretation:

Spoiler for Of Fantasy and Realism:



I think that our differences are too fundamental to solve really. I'm quite an idealistic guy who follows orthodox principles while you and many others who undoubtly disagrees with many things I've said are simply looking for entertainments. It's not wrong, just... disappointing. When you can get a better result with more efforts, why do you stop at mediocrity and not try to get to outstanding levels? As a writer, I really want to make a work of art that at the end of the story I could truly say "This was worth the effort." while readers would also feels saddened by the fact that it has ended but remembered for a long time and not just another story to pass time. See, idealistic, right? (for bonus point, insert UBW-Ending Archer image here)
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Old 2014-02-24, 03:10   Link #9714
RpR1337
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All I can say is level-headed. At least it's interesting to clash opinions with you. Not being let down feels awesome.
Yeah, that's the gist of it. We're in a stalemate where we really can't decide who's right and who's wrong, because in a subjective clash like entertainment (I f.e. like Louis de FunÚs movies, while my mother hates them for some reason or another) there really is no right or wrong. Nevertheless, it's not bad to try and find different points of view to support a rational argument. That in itself makes it worth the effort.

Just one thing. I rarely quote or use JoJo as a reference, because it's massive and content-dense. That's really about it for my point. Campione isn't all that dense, it's fundamentally quite a slow-pace and low-content story, but you can get into the depth of it if you debate on the machinations of the plot, and it's more of a storytelling form of entertainment. JoJo's a bit different, where you don't really get "related extra" by delving into the "machinery" of the story. At least, that's what I think.
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Old 2014-02-24, 20:00   Link #9715
Birdway
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Guys, can you be a bit shorter with your posts? Too much to read is tiresome.

What about a resume about the last talks or something, is the fight against Artio the last released volume, right?
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Old 2014-02-24, 21:11   Link #9716
BW95
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Originally Posted by bakapervert View Post
I have heard Kojou's strength, but honestly after seeing the anime, he seems nothing special aside from his familiar. It seems like he got killed quite often by enemy that should be far weaker than him and his answer to each new enemy is just summon new familiar, no tactic or instinct as far as I can see. Godou should be able to beat him.
In terms of purely physical specs, Kojou hardly loses out to Godou. He's dodged light-speed and interdimensional attacks. His physical strength alone without magic is enough to demolish a building. He can maintain his kenjuu for as long as he likes unlike Godou's once per day limitation.
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Old 2014-02-24, 21:27   Link #9717
bakapervert
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^ Well, in the anime I can see he is quite hard to pin down even when attacked by expert in close range combat, so i guess he is not entirely helpless, but evading light speed and interdimensional attacks? And also destroying building, he is that strong? His problem though is his familiar is too strong and too many that he never seem to have used his brain to improvised or using his guts and spirit to snatch victory from the jaw of defeat (except maybe in that flashback volume when he is still human). Against character like Campione, I can't help but imagine that he will be winning in the start but will surely lose in the end. Well, though if we debate it using that OBD rule, I guess Kojou will win against Campione-verse.
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Old 2014-02-24, 21:36   Link #9718
BW95
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Originally Posted by bakapervert View Post
^ Well, in the anime I can see he is quite hard to pin down even when attacked by expert in close range combat, so i guess he is not entirely helpless, but evading light speed and interdimensional attacks? And also destroying building, he is that strong? His problem though is his familiar is too strong and too many that he never seem to have used his brain to improvised or using his guts and spirit to snatch victory from the jaw of defeat (except maybe in that flashback volume when he is still human). Against character like Campione, I can't help but imagine that he will be winning in the start but will surely lose in the end. Well, though if we debate it using that OBD rule, I guess Kojou will win against Campione-verse.
Light speed and interdimensional attacks during his fight with Kanon and that building tidbit was stated by Mikumo himself. Thing is although Kojou and Godou are quite similar they suffer from opposite problems. Godou needs his harem, everything he's got, and then some just to break even. Kojou has to restrain himself from obliterating the enemy because he wants to save his opponent like with Kanon or he just doesn't want to destroy everything so he usually needs his harem for their unique abilities, not their fighting strength. His fights are pretty straightforward so there's never really a need for improvising or quick thinking, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have those qualities.
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Old 2014-02-24, 21:41   Link #9719
bakapervert
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^ I guess all MC should have talent for improvising or quick thinking, including Kojou. Well, being too strong has its own problem, including boring battle.
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Old 2014-02-24, 21:49   Link #9720
BW95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakapervert View Post
^ I guess all MC should have talent for improvising or quick thinking, including Kojou. Well, being too strong has its own problem, including boring battle.
If you really think about it, a campione's luck is really just the typical shounen ability to reverse unfavorable situations. In fact, there are many precedents for this. Most notably Index's Touma and Hamazura.

I've always thought about this, but Godou's luck may be in a different league compared to his fellow devil kings. For starters, not only did he defeat Verethragna, a war god that embodies victory, but pretty much every match since has ended in a draw. This is significant. When gods or campione fight each other, the odds of winning are always 50/50 because powers and experience are rendered moot. So if the chances of winning are 50% and the chances of losing are 50%, then what are the chances of a draw?
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