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Old 2014-04-10, 04:14   Link #10061
Fwarlord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lived_1714 View Post
Nope, that one, the one that said that campione has no responsibility is wrong, Erica already said that the people will give Godou money, food or whatever he wants and his job is to defeat the disaster known as heretic gods.

The second one is wrong, too. In Godou's head saving is the most important thing, not fighting.
No, it's not an equal cooperation. Campiones are all supreme rulers, not mercenaries, remember? They normally cannot be bothered by mundane interest like money or fame, because if they want something, they will just simply take it and no one can prevent them. People gave them those thing not as reward for what they did, but as offering with the hope of receiving their mercies. Just like when you pray a god, you can offer all you want, but whether or not that god will answer you wish is another matter. And it's not like campiones care about those trivial things, anyway.

You know Godou has the habit of denying his true desires by giving false excuses to make him looks "normal", right? It's mean his narration is utterly unreliable. Just like he always talks about himself as a pacifist while completely enjoy battling, "protecting the innocent" is just his other for fighting gods and making himself feel better.
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Old 2014-04-10, 11:38   Link #10062
Ravagerblade
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I never said I was looking for hero doing *heroic stuff* don't cast your opinions about what my likes are.

And no, he is not an awesome MC, he is ok at best.

All I'm doing is judging his character and how really pathetic he is. Sure he may have helped some people, but he doesn't improve at all he stays stagnant in how he approaches his adversaries.

He doesn't even want his power. what does that say?

But whatever, bias is effecting everybody apparently.
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Old 2014-04-10, 11:47   Link #10063
Ickarium
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Not everyone finds him pathetic, is the thing. There is a way to discuss a character without throwing around words laden with negativity such as 'pathetic'. If one does use such terms, it's unsurprising those who disagree with you will be firm in their rebuttals.

Honestly, it's fine that you dislike him. You do little to support your case, however, except via personal feelings which are quite subjective - and often display a marked lack of knowledge of the setting which undermines the few actual arguments you provide.
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Old 2014-04-10, 12:13   Link #10064
Ravagerblade
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you obviously haven't been reading my above comments, shows your own bias towards the negative aspects of Godou's character. Then tell me, how is he not pathetic, oh dear I said that word OMG! really? your going to argue about such words?

Pro's - Works well with others, gets the job done, Protective of humanity(lack of better word)
Con's - Doesn't try to improve, relies on other's before he can be efficient, hinders his ability to battle therefore able to cause less environmental damage. many more to choose from.

just my opinion though but if you refuse to acknowledge his shortcomings then your just a blind follower who can't think for himself. Just don't take that to hard it's my opinion.
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Old 2014-04-10, 12:45   Link #10065
Ickarium
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I have read your comments, yes; I don't respond to posts without reading comments. However, the issue is you haven't proven your statements. You simply provide an end conclusion and state it as fact. This is not a proper argument. However, I will respond to your points such as they are.

1) It is explicitly stated in the novels that simple training will do nothing for a Campione, and might actually -hurt- their chances. The only way for a Campione to truly grow, according to the novels themselves, is through conflict. This is because what makes a Campione able to defeat gods is not something as mundane as mere training. It is an overriding urge to win. Their instincts, such as they are, are tied to the astral and training might dampen these instincts, in a similar method to how one can train oneself to ignore your survival instincts. Remember, -without any combat training at all and while not using an authority like the Camel-, Godou was able to dodge Erica's attacks in the first novel, and she is a master. This is because of his instincts and bodily vitality. Godou learning martial arts or say magic for the purposes of fighting could actually be bad for him.

I will say that this does mean that the usual shonen 'train to beat the enemy' trope doesn't happen. On the other hand, this provides a setting-oriented reason for another shonen trope, the 'burst of power during a climactic fight'.

2) I did say that it might be good for Godou to learn more about deities. However, this is not a simple endeavor. Remember, simply learning about Perseus took many, many books if Godou were to study naturally, and he is merely one deity. Knowing enough to use the sword is not a matter of a few pages in an Encyclopedia; it is knowing how the deity developed, why it developed from the surrounding society, how it interacted with other competing mythologies, and more. This is a vast amount of historical and societal information. It would not be unlikely to state that Erica and Liliana have the equivalent to a PhD in anthropology with a mythological focus, from their constant magical training. Mariya, to a large degree, skips this due to her Sight. While Godou could start this process, it wouldn't finish for many years and likely wouldn't be usable outside luck for quite some time. Remember, as mentioned before, one cannot simply keep the knowledge that is magically transferred, it disappears in a few hours.

Supplemental question: how else, praytell, should he be 'efficient' exactly? Yes, he relies on the girls; he needs to, but I'm not sure how that makes him, to use your word, pathetic. Details, please?

3) False causation. Him hindering his ability to do battle has nothing to do with the result of property damage, unless (your wording is unclear) you mean his inability to perfectly control the boar. Which may be impossible: Aisha, who is hundreds of years his senior, cannot perfectly control all of her authorities. Certain authorities very well might not able to be controlled perfectly. If you don't mean this, I'm not sure what you mean. The boar needs a large target, so often property damage is pretty much guaranteed unless he doesn't use the boar. Again, details would be appreciated.

In a nutshell, you need to explain your viewpoint, and support it better with in-setting details. I will note, however, that your last paragraph has at least two logical debate fallacies in it - I'd suggest that attacking the person you're discussing a topic with is not the best way to reach agreement.
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Old 2014-04-10, 12:46   Link #10066
XFire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravagerblade View Post
you obviously haven't been reading my above comments, shows your own bias towards the negative aspects of Godou's character. Then tell me, how is he not pathetic, oh dear I said that word OMG! really? your going to argue about such words?

Pro's - Works well with others, gets the job done, Protective of humanity(lack of better word)
Con's - Doesn't try to improve, relies on other's before he can be efficient, hinders his ability to battle therefore able to cause less environmental damage. many more to choose from.

just my opinion though but if you refuse to acknowledge his shortcomings then your just a blind follower who can't think for himself. Just don't take that to hard it's my opinion.
First of all, he can't improve through training. It doesn't work like that. Sorry you don't get training arcs, but get over it.

He has one ability that relies on others, and almost never ends the fight with it.

Campione and gods cause disasters by existing. Its part of the setting and not limited to Godou.

The girls do not do most of the fighting. The girls don't do any of the fighting. They are incapable of lasting more than twenty seconds against a god unless its playing with them.

Godou is a hypocrite. This is an annoying flaw in his character caused by the way he was raised. Apparently one side of the family gave him normal moral standards and the other turned him into.... yeah, go read one of the Youth scenes. As the series goes on he throws off the normalcy more and more.

Godou does not have any responsibility towards anyone. He has no reason to fight on behalf of people simply because he is a Campione. He was not given his power to protect, he took it after killing its owner.

Anything else? Because if you're done, stop being a condescending jerk about a show you clearly don't like and only came to mock. Go back to punching every problem with a plot breaking right hand.
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Old 2014-04-10, 12:56   Link #10067
Ravagerblade
Fairy Magic God Othinus
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
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I never said improve through training, your just assuming that. get over your arrogant ignorance.

I want to like Godou but his glaring faults make it hard to. please understand that much at least.
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Old 2014-04-10, 12:59   Link #10068
Ickarium
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Hey now, I'd not call Godou a hypocrite...exactly.

The issue comes in that there are multiple forms of pacifism. Godou is non-aggressive, he is not non-violent. He avoids conflict and doesn't want to fight, but once it comes he is willing to do so to defend himself and others. Enjoying the conflict doesn't really, well, conflict with this stance. One can enjoy something even if you'd prefer not having to do it in the first place.

I think the whole point to Godou's character is this internal conflict, be it to violence, or to responsibility of being a Campione as he sees it, to his relationship with the girls. He's by nature conflicted in almost every way. The whole point of his character development is resolving these conflicts (which yes, do count as personality flaws to a degree) slowly. Granted, it being a light novel series, this might never finish, of course.
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Old 2014-04-10, 13:25   Link #10069
bakapervert
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Originally Posted by Ravagerblade View Post
I never said improve through training, your just assuming that. get over your arrogant ignorance.

I want to like Godou but his glaring faults make it hard to. please understand that much at least.
If you want other people to understand your view, than at least you should also try to understand other people's view even if it different than your view. I understand you don't like some of Godou's trait, but I like his character and I can accept the author's explanation why Godou's character is just like that.
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Old 2014-04-10, 13:45   Link #10070
Ravagerblade
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perhaps both of us should do just that.
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Old 2014-04-10, 17:24   Link #10071
Ravagerblade
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Grrr other thing that pisses me off is the character digs everybody dishes out to Godou. Call me a hypocrite but I see it all the time, the teasing never stops nobody ever uses common sense, all they see is the outside covering never looking deeper into the causes.!!!!!!! they make it seem like he needs a babysitter.

Most of all I'm being a critical critic towards these series. Maybe because my opinion thinks it could be even better.
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Old 2014-04-10, 18:14   Link #10072
lived_1714
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@Ravagerblade

Basically the reason why you called Godou pathetic because he has to rely on the girls JUST to fight a god or a campione, isn't it? It can't be helped, his Sword needs knowledge, and he's not someone who can gain the knowledge that easy. Godou might be able to fend off/run away (not defeat) a god or campione by himself, he can only defeat the enemies with help from the girls. The biggest problem is his self-limit.

Godou is like a manager/finisher of a party, while the girls have their own jobs: crowd control, intel gathering, mini-boss killer, healer, plans maker, etc.
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Old 2014-04-10, 18:23   Link #10073
Ravagerblade
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basically. it's one of the biggest things I can't stand about him.
The way I see it, If the other Campione can why can't he?
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Old 2014-04-10, 18:32   Link #10074
XFire
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Originally Posted by Ravagerblade View Post
I never said improve through training, your just assuming that. get over your arrogant ignorance.

I want to like Godou but his glaring faults make it hard to. please understand that much at least.
You said he "never tries to improve". What other way were you trying to imply? Clearly it couldn't have been the way the author established as the only way to improve use of an authority, which is battles, since you complained about collateral damage as well.

You have no right to call anyone on this thread ignorant when all of your complaints ignore what has already been established by the author.

You don't like the series? Don't read it. And leave the rest of us alone. You have nothing constructive to add and have no interest in anything but tearing down the series as a whole. Back off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ickarium View Post
Hey now, I'd not call Godou a hypocrite...exactly.

The issue comes in that there are multiple forms of pacifism. Godou is non-aggressive, he is not non-violent. He avoids conflict and doesn't want to fight, but once it comes he is willing to do so to defend himself and others. Enjoying the conflict doesn't really, well, conflict with this stance. One can enjoy something even if you'd prefer not having to do it in the first place.

I think the whole point to Godou's character is this internal conflict, be it to violence, or to responsibility of being a Campione as he sees it, to his relationship with the girls. He's by nature conflicted in almost every way. The whole point of his character development is resolving these conflicts (which yes, do count as personality flaws to a degree) slowly. Granted, it being a light novel series, this might never finish, of course.
I called him a hypocrite because he never really tries to avoid the fights. He generally goes "i don't want to fight", then the god/campione pisses him off, and then he throws a 500-ton pig at their heads.

I always saw it as him wearing a mask made of normal values over the hedonistic battle-freak he becomes in Youth/Battle Rush. But the mask starts to slip in battle or around the girls.

That said, its just my personal interpretation, so it might be like you said. Either way, I actually like this part of Godou. Its funny watching him start out claiming pacifism and end up doing the pig thing.
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Old 2014-04-10, 18:36   Link #10075
Ravagerblade
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Your going to bitch then bitch but don't you dare tell me to *back off* I came here to discuss the series if you don't like it then boo hoo.
If he wanted to improve then he'd get his ass in gear and fight as much as he could, instead he chooses to be passive until the need arises and the circumstances demand he do something.
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Old 2014-04-10, 18:40   Link #10076
XFire
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Your going to bitch then bitch but don't you dare tell me to *back off* I came here to discuss the series if you don't like it then boo hoo.
If he wanted to improve then he'd get his ass in gear and fight as much as he could, instead he chooses to be passive until the need arises and the circumstances demand he do something.
BACK OFF

You complained that he causes too much damage, then you tell him to go pick fights with living natural disasters. At least try to be consistent when you're not making sense.
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Old 2014-04-10, 18:44   Link #10077
Ravagerblade
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that's not even comparable, picking fights does not mean cause damage, apparently you think it's one and the same.
You one trick pony. back off in bold hah you hold no water. get off your high horse.

There is such a way to fight without destroying the environment and when I said that I meant Human structures, I don't care much if its out in the plains.

Enough talking about this it's derailing the thread.

End.
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Old 2014-04-10, 18:50   Link #10078
bakapervert
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^This is LN, not RPG. There are no convenient way where Godou can easily decide where he can fight. The heretic god just do whatever they want, just trying to luring them into someplace without building will just expend some precious authority or energy. Defeating them without human casualty is already an impressive achievement. And its not like heretic god grow on tree, he already involved in a dozen fight in less than a year (I think, not really counting here), he does not exactly need to go out and searching for more trouble, trouble already come by itself to him.
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Old 2014-04-10, 18:57   Link #10079
Ravagerblade
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And yet, both are stories to be told.
It doesn't matter, I have my opinions and you people have yours. Two different sides. No acknowledge of both sides is considered to be happening. Understanding is a virtue.
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Old 2014-04-10, 18:59   Link #10080
BW95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XFire View Post
You said he "never tries to improve". What other way were you trying to imply? Clearly it couldn't have been the way the author established as the only way to improve use of an authority, which is battles, since you complained about collateral damage as well.

You have no right to call anyone on this thread ignorant when all of your complaints ignore what has already been established by the author.

You don't like the series? Don't read it. And leave the rest of us alone. You have nothing constructive to add and have no interest in anything but tearing down the series as a whole. Back off.



I called him a hypocrite because he never really tries to avoid the fights. He generally goes "i don't want to fight", then the god/campione pisses him off, and then he throws a 500-ton pig at their heads.

I always saw it as him wearing a mask made of normal values over the hedonistic battle-freak he becomes in Youth/Battle Rush. But the mask starts to slip in battle or around the girls.

That said, its just my personal interpretation, so it might be like you said. Either way, I actually like this part of Godou. Its funny watching him start out claiming pacifism and end up doing the pig thing.
Didn't the novel attribute his battle lust to his instincts he inherited from obtaining godhood?

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Originally Posted by Ravagerblade View Post
that's not even comparable, picking fights does not mean cause damage, apparently you think it's one and the same.
You one trick pony. back off in bold hah you hold no water. get off your high horse.

There is such a way to fight without destroying the environment and when I said that I meant Human structures, I don't care much if its out in the plains.

Enough talking about this it's derailing the thread.

End.
He's a campione. Picking fights and collateral damage go hand in hand.
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