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Old 2012-05-19, 19:41   Link #1161
XFire
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Join Date: Feb 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadi View Post
Be careful, this post will be full of opinions, some of them disguising themselves as facts. Just saying.

I start with a hopefully calm discussion, trying to suggest and evaluate some criteria to judge and compare harems. I use Campione and HSDxD as test cases. Later I start ranting against HSDxD a bit. A bit much. It turns into the main topic, actually. I apologize for that. However, I still think that, while readable and maybe even enjoyable for a while or longer, HSDxD is inferior. Maybe I can even make you understand why I think so. (Hopefully I won't have to in the first place *cough*)

Spoiler for discussion/rant:



Edit: 3 new posts? Even long ones? I shouldn't write so much...
Edit 2: Forgot Umi no Misaki for (1). Shame on me.
Edit 3: YAY for tvtropes page. I'm cheering you on! I won't promise to help for now because I've got other business I need to finish first (like ranting). It's not impossible that I'll make an account there later just to correct some facts though. In a similar vein to what Kira described with "WTF, you came to AS just because of Campione?" (roughly)
I agree with some of what you said, but I have to respond to a couple of your points on HS DxD.

Spoiler for Response:


That's about it for my response rant. I understand a lot of what Kadi said, but overall DxD is still my favorite.

So There.
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Old 2012-05-19, 20:05   Link #1162
mds435
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Good honest to goodness discussion without bashing. so let me join in... bearing in mind this is merely my opinion which will differ from everyone elses.

Favorite HAREM.

Umi No Misaki
High School DXD
Campione

Yes I differ to most of you guys, but my premise was favorite Harem not story or Light novel...

UNM (Umi No Misaki) because i found the whole premise entirely believable, and the heroines, I was able to identify with as well as the protagonist. They all get sufficient character development that me as the reader can root for them. In alot of Manga's LN's the protagonist is so wimpy or stupid or unbelievable that I cannot identify with them or i want to shoot him... (Infinite Stratos if u were curious)..

HSDXD hmm well mainly for the sex.. I have to admit the story is hard to swallow and the heroines are very cookie cutter huge boobs and all. For the most part we get alot of character development so I am not left wondering WTF happened..The story is what it is and makes no apologies for that.. The author constantly pushes the limit of Ecchi and Hentai, and truth and fiction... and while I find the protagonist to be very stupid and dense I don't dislike him.. but still as I said mainly for the sex is why i rank this one number 2...

Campione. the harem is still evolving I assume, and I have only seen 2 characters in the harem although I am sure others are coming... the only reason this fell to # 3 was simply I have not read enough to get hooked... only 2 female harem members and a protagonist I am having difficulty understanding... I only say this cause I can;t tell who he wants and how he feels about them. Personally, I would have jumped Erica and Yuri awhile ago so why is Goudo holding back... but still I ranked it 3 cause I am sure it will get better... as ooposed ot those I did not rank at all...

after saying all that.. story wise Campione is wayyyyyyy better than HSDXD and UNM.. This author can really tell a good story and keep me engaged without sex run rampant... thankyou for your time and listening to my rant...Live Long and Posper
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Old 2012-05-19, 22:37   Link #1163
SoFarGone
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Since Luo Hao is a Chinese Campione, is her skills go by the stereotype of knowing martial arts?
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Old 2012-05-19, 22:46   Link #1164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFarGone View Post
Since Luo Hao is a Chinese Campione, is her skills go by the stereotype of knowing martial arts?
Yep, she combines her powers of a campione with martial arts.
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Old 2012-05-20, 03:27   Link #1165
dragon1412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadi View Post
Be careful, this post will be full of opinions, some of them disguising themselves as facts. Just saying.

I start with a hopefully calm discussion, trying to suggest and evaluate some criteria to judge and compare harems. I use Campione and HSDxD as test cases. Later I start ranting against HSDxD a bit. A bit much. It turns into the main topic, actually. I apologize for that. However, I still think that, while readable and maybe even enjoyable for a while or longer, HSDxD is inferior. Maybe I can even make you understand why I think so. (Hopefully I won't have to in the first place *cough*)

Spoiler for discussion/rant:



Edit: 3 new posts? Even long ones? I shouldn't write so much...
Edit 2: Forgot Umi no Misaki for (1). Shame on me.
Edit 3: YAY for tvtropes page. I'm cheering you on! I won't promise to help for now because I've got other business I need to finish first (like ranting). It's not impossible that I'll make an account there later just to correct some facts though. In a similar vein to what Kira described with "WTF, you came to AS just because of Campione?" (roughly)
As much as i want to jump in the conversation about harem, i have to say that there is no point in compare between Campione! and HSDxD due to the fact that they belongs to diffirent genre. First of all, HSDxD in overall have a quite generic story but what makes it so interesting is the unique comedy elements and sometimes...no, most of the time that elementss jump directly in the climax moment makes the reader supries, 2nd is the point of view, HSDxD read mostly from Ise PoV which make it so hillarious, if you takes away those 2 than HSDxD is quite similar to generic shounen manga(Rival,power-ups,...)

Move on to Campione, 1st, the story is not a common one can be seen on normal shounen manga or LN(of course, there do exist similar one but much more lower in number compare to HSDxD similar one), Godou start out strong and he have a reson for it (just read vol 3), the element of coincedents do play a role in Godou power but unlike HSDxD, till Godou have power he have to make a lot of choice to reach it and because of this, the story have it own charm, 2nd, PoV, Campione was write in 3rd person PoV makes it have a better exploit in all character(and this is what makes the girl affection in Campione can be feel more easily than in DxD) but also make Campione lose the Unique atmosphere that created through a character PoV(for example, if you read HSDxD or hidan no aria, you can see a lot of comment and thought of the character)

3rd, is the information that the Campione provide is much greater than DxD, both use mythology and legend but while Campione using the history and relation as the base for the story, DxD use the author perception and creation as its base, this makes the story on Campione unrealistic but in the same time, sound realistic to a certain sense while the story in DxD remains completly unrealistic, this is the reason while most people say that campione story is superior to DxD. So after all if you read DxD you will see the power-up part but the way to gain Power - up is so unexpected to the point that make the entire story unique, and if you read Campione, you can see a similar atmosphere to TAMNI where a large scale world created with detailed part that makes the story interesting.
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Old 2012-05-20, 04:05   Link #1166
Kleeyook
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High School DxD is for ecchi.

Campione! is for balanced harem.

I personally prefer Campione! since I got tired of High School DxD seeing the characters crying about they not being strong enough while they beat the villains who were supposed to be so strong. And the power difference between the top ranking guys and the rest is just too wide, it makes me wonder why the protagonist team have to be so depressed about when they have so much talent to be able to keep up with the bad guys while suffering no loss. Fighting in DxD makes me sick in general.

Campione while not truly invincible (e.g. Godou), they are really too strong for anyone else besides gods to fight, I see that it's kind of balanced since no matter how hard one trains, he/she can never become a campione if he/she not born to be one. Although normal (strong) people still pose trouble for campioe and gods, even if they can't win.

In DxD, villains of the week appear stronger than the last one, far stronger. The protagonists keep getting stronger too, and the faction leaders are so incredibly strong I just don't understand why would they be so wary of getting assassinated. The current Lucifer is 10x stronger than the previous Lucifer is just too ridiculous. Shouldn't he be able to take on a god then? DxD starts good but keep getting more and more ridiculous that I simply lost interest.
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Old 2012-05-20, 04:21   Link #1167
whsie
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DxD really, really dominates in the sheer amount of WTF moments it gives me. Assuming you never touched the spoilers and read the series from volume 1 up to whatever you could, every volume is something "fresh" and surprising. IMO, that's its greatest asset. The comedy comes second, then the shounen fights, AND then the romance/harem. Believe it or not, for a harem story, the harem itself is actually relatively low on the pecking order of the story.

The thing with DxD is that it has this great mix of multiple genres, which is IMO why it captivated so many fans. It can appeal to a wide variety of readers. Some read it for the fights. Some read it for the comedy. Some read it for the romance.

By comparison, Campione doesn't hold a stick to DxD in term of WTF moments or even plot. But as noted, the novel itself roots itself to a more realistic base. And unlike DxD, there is a rough perceivable ceiling in power (whereas DxD is pretty much infinite) which prevents it from suffering the Dragon Ball Z infinite growth syndrome.
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Old 2012-05-20, 04:35   Link #1168
CNine
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at least i never bored to read DxD again and again, i got serious headache when Godou is preparing his golden sword
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Old 2012-05-20, 07:22   Link #1169
TJP1600
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My god, after trying to translate the first chapter of Volume 3 to see where my newly learned Chinese stands, I realize I have a lot of work to do. Understanding the general bits and pieces(other than proper nouns) isn't as bad as I thought it would be for only a year of learning(and yes there is a bit of google translate for the phrases I can't guess) but there is no way I'd be able to translate as elegantly as the bakatsuki translators. Hopefully in a year or two I can help out with translating.

As for DxD vs Campione

Spoiler for discussion:

Last edited by TJP1600; 2012-05-20 at 07:34.
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Old 2012-05-20, 07:46   Link #1170
Kleeyook
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I think DxD is just like Dragonball. Level up greatly until the opponent from the last arc that you fought and won with great difficulty got beaten by a swift of finger.

It's just, I hate this RPG system since the big bad should just come to get rid of us before we pose a threat.
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Old 2012-05-20, 09:38   Link #1171
wen13
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I agree with that from the pattern that I see from most shounen manga. It is that the MC gets defeated by the antagonist,train physically or mentally, awaken their inward mojo or whatever power they have, attack the antagonist, flashback of antagonist's past that tells us why they do what they do, they fight each other until the MC is down while the antagonist shows all his power, the MC have a flashback telling us why he fights or why must win, MC gets up and in a showy way defeats the antagonist but let him live, they become friends, a new antagonist appears and defeats the MC, train again, acquire new power or power up, attack,antagonist flashback, MC down antagonist unleash all his power, MC gets up with some cheering, defeats antagonist, befriend him/her, and a new antagonist appears and the cycle starts all over again.

Everybody who read any shounen or whatever manga or novel will see this pattern almost every time, for example bleach, one piece, naruto, dragonball z, HS DxD, and yes you can also see it in Campione

The authors do this pattern until they are dropped and the only thing that keeps them from being drop is that they must make the plot interesting by adding some comedy, harem, romance and other things
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Old 2012-05-20, 09:55   Link #1172
ReaperxKingx
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High School DXD and Campione! is a bit different in my opinion. I read a lot of manga and Light Novels, High School DXD and Campione! somewhat follows the pattern but has an image different from others. In High School DXD the main character, Ise, powers up through the critical moment, the only training he did for an opponent was in vol 2 and 5. Other than that, Ise has power up through trying to save the girls he loved, when beaten down, and *Cough Cough Cough* and breasts (many many times) *Cough*. Campione also follows the same pattern like High School DXD (Except the breast part), Godou powers up in critical moments, but I may be wrong here since I only read vol 1 and 2 and know the spoilers from 3, 4, 5, and 6. Don't know much on vol 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11 well majority of it, know some spoilers like Athena died and Godou killing Lancelot.
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Old 2012-05-20, 12:03   Link #1173
Kadi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wen13 View Post
[...]
Everybody who read any shounen or whatever manga or novel will see this pattern almost every time, for example bleach, one piece, naruto, dragonball z, HS DxD, and yes you can also see it in Campione
[...]
I beg to differ. While Campione is not free of the typical shounen pitfalls, it does a rather good job at avoiding them. If anything, it subverts them. Godou: "There may be guys out there saying they get stronger by relying on their emotions, indulging in them. Maybe it's true. But that amount of strength is not enough for me. With it I can't win the battles I need to win."
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Old 2012-05-20, 12:43   Link #1174
iK@r0s
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One thing for sure I love both of them DxD and Campione....

But I like Godou better than ise
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Old 2012-05-20, 13:01   Link #1175
SoFarGone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx View Post
High School DXD and Campione! is a bit different in my opinion. I read a lot of manga and Light Novels, High School DXD and Campione! somewhat follows the pattern but has an image different from others. In High School DXD the main character, Ise, powers up through the critical moment, the only training he did for an opponent was in vol 2 and 5. Other than that, Ise has power up through trying to save the girls he loved, when beaten down, and *Cough Cough Cough* and breasts (many many times) *Cough*. Campione also follows the same pattern like High School DXD (Except the breast part), Godou powers up in critical moments, but I may be wrong here since I only read vol 1 and 2 and know the spoilers from 3, 4, 5, and 6. Don't know much on vol 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11 well majority of it, know some spoilers like Athena died and Godou killing Lancelot.
hate to sound like a mod here but you need to use spoiler tags.
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Old 2012-05-20, 14:29   Link #1176
Moe Connection
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Someone earlier denounced Erica as a Mary Sue. Nonsense!A Mary Sue is a character who is perfect in all aspects. Whoever said so needs to reread the novel or finish reading it from volume one to eleven.First of all,if she truly was a m.s,she would be a hard working character who is diligent and considerate in all respect.In reality,she's lazy outside of fights and she skips school. In addition, she couldn't even cook. And if you think that she's a an all rounder in school--wrong again!She's fails at math and science!,
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Old 2012-05-20, 14:33   Link #1177
Richocet
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Ahh, what he said wasn't that she is a Mary Sue but that people might mistake her as one
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Old 2012-05-20, 16:31   Link #1178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
Someone earlier denounced Erica as a Mary Sue. Nonsense!A Mary Sue is a character who is perfect in all aspects. Whoever said so needs to reread the novel or finish reading it from volume one to eleven.First of all,if she truly was a m.s,she would be a hard working character who is diligent and considerate in all respect.In reality,she's lazy outside of fights and she skips school. In addition, she couldn't even cook. And if you think that she's a an all rounder in school--wrong again!She's fails at math and science!,
I called her a low tiered mary sue. She doesn't completely dominate the story but she does dominate everyone she meets except Ena. Most people like her or a least can't resist her and she perfects every sport she plays. Her fighting skills are also top notch for a non-campione human.

Also all of the points you listed can be considered "anti-sue" traits. The author gives her minor bad traits to compensate for her overall perfectness. You see it all the time in fanfiction.
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Old 2012-05-20, 21:06   Link #1179
Clue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadi View Post
I beg to differ. While Campione is not free of the typical shounen pitfalls, it does a rather good job at avoiding them. If anything, it subverts them. Godou: "There may be guys out there saying they get stronger by relying on their emotions, indulging in them. Maybe it's true. But that amount of strength is not enough for me. With it I can't win the battles I need to win."
I see it more as Godou being a genius tactician who is able to adapt to any
kind of situation by factoring in logistics, while Ise like other Shounen/Seinen
characters powers up through "enlightenment". Personally i like them both equally(the MCs).
Since they belong to different genres i am able to satiate my desire for both logic
and emotion when i read Campione or DxD.

Campione and DxD are both based off of the Shounen/Seinen genres but they are both
original in their own merits.

Campione:True Harem featuring logical discussion regarding myths(which can be biased at times), with
in depth character development(which is never usually seen in a harem setting), and a unique plotline .
HighSchool DxD:True Harem featuring lots of adult comedy, written as if it were a fable with a unique plotline,
and the best set up for female character development(in my opinion).

Even though they are superior to each other in different categories as of right now i like DxD more, because i have only read the
first two volumes of Campione , but i know that in the future(mainly due to the spoilers) i can picture myself liking them equally.
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Old 2012-05-20, 21:11   Link #1180
Kadi
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If you say Erica is no Mary Sue, watch her play baseball. I think she was good enough to beat, or at least challenge, people on national level. Without powering up or training. Which is a bit much in my opinion.

And she is not interested in math and sciences because... she doesn't need them. Actually, I wondered why the author made her "bad" at them. Even if she comes late a lot, I thought she'd care more for appearances, not losing to others. Actually, I think she's not even "bad" at them, just not as good as she could be. She's memorized the whole damn textbooks, that tells her most of the stuff she needs to know.
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