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Old 2012-03-13, 22:39   Link #20121
aohige
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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No doubt those mental state contributed to his actions.
But when an non-American, especially a muslim, have the same "snap", do you hear these sympathisers coming out in droves defending him on the American side? The answer is HELL NO.

I'll say it straight out. These sacks of shits do not look at other people in the same light.
The perpetrator being an American soldier makes it different. Other "non-humans" are not treated with the same sympathy.
If you read through comments on Reuters, with droves of people posting with complete lack of remorse for the children killed, it makes me disgusted that I breathes the same air as these scums of earth.
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Old 2012-03-13, 22:50   Link #20122
TigerII
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
True.. its just that we've set poor precedent with that soldier who massacred Iraqi families. By the time it was whitewashed down, he got very little punishment.

(And you don't even want to look up the My Lai troops in Vietnam - they basically got away with it and the troops that tried to stop them spent 30 years being crucified before they were acknowledged as having tried to do the right thing)


Like I said, a nation rarely tries someone in their military for murder of people in an occupied zone. If they do, it is just an example trial and the person usually gets a light sentence.

This is true throughout history. Hell, it is only after WWII that people actually started to care for human rights. During and before II civilians were a valid target in military operations.
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Old 2012-03-13, 22:52   Link #20123
Ithekro
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The only difference are in the flagging and status.

One, he is one of ours, thus while that doesn't make it right, it reflects on us. If it is one of theirs, then "balls to it" I think is the phrase.

Two, he is a soldier. Thus means he's a legitimate combatant and thus covered by a host of treaties and conventions that one typically does not get if one is non-orginized military (be it freedom fighters, terrorists, or resident criminal scumbag gang banger). "Terrorists" are generally lumped as not being military and thus do not warrent the rights involving war and treatment of prisoners...that sort of thing. It also means crimes committed by a solder run though those treaties and military justice systems.

However I think the general practise of "firing squad" is still on the books for the military. It has been long gone from almost any Civil books. Lots of States don't even have a death penalty anymore. While we won't hand him over to the Afghan, it is possible to have a military hearing, find him guilty and then have the Afghan witness the execution by firing squad (from a distance for security reasons). They might like the show.
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Old 2012-03-13, 22:55   Link #20124
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
If we bring the soldier back to America, the Afghans will be left simmering. To be honest, though, the Afghans will likely be upset about the situation no matter where the soldier is prosecuted - and rightfully so.
Handing him over would be bad for the U.S. military, the already extreme Obama haters would go apeshit, and the Afghanistans wouldn't really feel any better. The Taliban would still launch multiple attacks as revenge for those crimes.

I mean, the last part; we had those Koran burnings and look how that turned out. Some Korans were burnt, Afghan people get angry, U.S. apologizes in an attempt to lessen the anger, and NOPE many Afghan people still riot and have a tantrum and kill about 30 people in the process. As terrible as the Afghanistan massacre is, I'm still rather mad about the Koran burning mobs. Those people have forsaken benevolence for piety. Their religion endorses peace, but it also endorses violence and vengeance. Although, it is only fair to point out that the extremist higher ups and many Muslim clerics tell their followers and supporters lies and exaggerations to help them get on board with this mentality that militant Islam is okay.

About the guy that did the massacre, in regards to what Aohige was saying, obviously the guy is screwed up from too much warfare. But yeah, too many people are defending him, acting like he should get some defense just because he is a U.S. soldier and also because, well, these same people just don't care about Middle Easterners. I feel bad that the guy got screwed up from serving so much military time, but as we all agree here, his crimes are completely unjustifiable. Like Vexx said, his "going nuts" is a complete insult to all the other U.S. and ally soldiers who have psychological issues from war.
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Old 2012-03-13, 23:29   Link #20125
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
I mean, the last part; we had those Koran burnings and look how that turned out. Some Korans were burnt, Afghan people get angry, U.S. apologizes in an attempt to lessen the anger, and NOPE many Afghan people still riot and have a tantrum and kill about 30 people in the process. As terrible as the Afghanistan massacre is, I'm still rather mad about the Koran burning mobs. Those people have forsaken benevolence for piety. Their religion endorses peace, but it also endorses violence and vengeance. Although, it is only fair to point out that the extremist higher ups and many Muslim clerics tell their followers and supporters lies and exaggerations to help them get on board with this mentality that militant Islam is okay.
You could argue that every religion endorses peace; you could argue that every religion endorses violence and vengeance. Every single one of them has sentences in their religious texts that would support either of those assertions. Islam is no worse than Christianity or Judaism, it just so happens that its time of being used to justify violence is now.

I would not be surprised if the "Koran burning mobs" were mobbing for more reasons than the fact that their religious texts had been burned. That was merely a catalyst. They're probably unhappy with being occupied (can't blame 'em), and unhappy with the violence and violent errors surrounding the occupying forces (again, can't blame them). In fact, I'm sure there's much more that they're upset about that I, as an American, can't even conceive of on my own. I feel as if they're being disrespected and treated poorly, though - and if I feel that way, as an American sitting in America, I can only imagine that what they are feeling is much, much worse.
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Old 2012-03-13, 23:45   Link #20126
Kokukirin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I would not be surprised if the "Koran burning mobs" were mobbing for more reasons than the fact that their religious texts had been burned. That was merely a catalyst. They're probably unhappy with being occupied (can't blame 'em), and unhappy with the violence and violent errors surrounding the occupying forces (again, can't blame them). In fact, I'm sure there's much more that they're upset about that I, as an American, can't even conceive of on my own. I feel as if they're being disrespected and treated poorly, though - and if I feel that way, as an American sitting in America, I can only imagine that what they are feeling is much, much worse.
So what else did Denmark do to the Muslims when they rioted over a Danish newspaper publishing depiction of Muhammad?

There are Muslims that are easily offended, and happy to resort to violence to make a point. They don't need other good reasons to start a fire. They are labelled as religious fanatics because that's exactly what they are.
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Old 2012-03-13, 23:48   Link #20127
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
You could argue that every religion endorses peace; you could argue that every religion endorses violence and vengeance. Every single one of them has sentences in their religious texts that would support either of those assertions. Islam is no worse than Christianity or Judaism, it just so happens that its time of being used to justify violence is now.

I would not be surprised if the "Koran burning mobs" were mobbing for more reasons than the fact that their religious texts had been burned. That was merely a catalyst. They're probably unhappy with being occupied (can't blame 'em), and unhappy with the violence and violent errors surrounding the occupying forces (again, can't blame them). In fact, I'm sure there's much more that they're upset about that I, as an American, can't even conceive of on my own. I feel as if they're being disrespected and treated poorly, though - and if I feel that way, as an American sitting in America, I can only imagine that what they are feeling is much, much worse.
I just can't get past the notion that the mobs committing violence over how a book is treated are basically worshiping the "idol" (the book). You know, that which the Koran itself says to avoid at all costs.
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Old 2012-03-14, 00:15   Link #20128
Ithekro
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I might have been over the concept of their beliefs being burned (in effegy), thus the Americans treating the Koran as an idol to be burned. Which could be used to fester things about the Americans being idol worshippers or something like the Americans treating the Koran like an idol, and that would go against its teaching and all that.

It all depends on how the clerics spun it. They are very good at finding something to get people fired up, and can generally do so within the context of ther own religious teaching. Though it does make one wonder how many citizens of many of these countries can read the Koran, and challenge anything the clerics might have wrong. It should be fairly high, but then again it might not be. Literacy rates increased thanks in part to the printing press and the Protestants gained group because of that invention (making them able to put the Bible into the hands of the people rather than only being read to them by the Catholic Church). One assumes something like that happened in the Muslim World with the Koran...but I can't be sure.
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Old 2012-03-14, 00:35   Link #20129
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I might have been over the concept of their beliefs being burned (in effegy), thus the Americans treating the Koran as an idol to be burned. Which could be used to fester things about the Americans being idol worshippers or something like the Americans treating the Koran like an idol, and that would go against its teaching and all that.

It all depends on how the clerics spun it. They are very good at finding something to get people fired up, and can generally do so within the context of ther own religious teaching. Though it does make one wonder how many citizens of many of these countries can read the Koran, and challenge anything the clerics might have wrong. It should be fairly high, but then again it might not be. Literacy rates increased thanks in part to the printing press and the Protestants gained group because of that invention (making them able to put the Bible into the hands of the people rather than only being read to them by the Catholic Church). One assumes something like that happened in the Muslim World with the Koran...but I can't be sure.
Come to think of it, the Muslims must understand that the Americans have been burning their own idols too. Otherwise how are the metal crosses and sculptures of Jesus on top of the churches made?

They just took their pyromania too far - see the American arms industry for details.
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Old 2012-03-14, 00:57   Link #20130
Ithekro
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I don't recall the D&D Clerics being able to get that much of a riot going. It was always the Bards that did that. Or maybe the Paladins in a rightous fury sort of way.
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Old 2012-03-14, 01:23   Link #20131
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
There are Muslims that are easily offended, and happy to resort to violence to make a point. They don't need other good reasons to start a fire. They are labelled as religious fanatics because that's exactly what they are.
There's no need to call out Muslims on this one - your statement would have been perfectly valid leaving it as talking about any religious fanatic. To call out Muslims makes it seem as if you're targeting them specifically and giving everyone else a free pass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I just can't get past the notion that the mobs committing violence over how a book is treated are basically worshiping the "idol" (the book). You know, that which the Koran itself says to avoid at all costs.
The point I was trying to make is that the outrage was likely over more than just the book itself. Think of how Americans perceive it when people in other nations burn our flag: is the outrage really over the burnt flag? No, of course not. It's over what it represents, and the people who burn the flags might as well be spitting in the faces of every American who sees what they've done. It's disrespect of the highest degree.

The Koran may not be something that represents a nation, but those who identify with a religious group are prone to take offense if something tied to their religion is being desecrated. It's something that is tied to them. So, as if we haven't already given many people in that region reasons to hate us, we go and essentially gave them all the finger with that action. It was a catalyst that led to retaliation. I'm not trying to justify the retaliation, but I understand where it was coming from.
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Old 2012-03-14, 03:33   Link #20132
ganbaru
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More austerity needed in Greece: EU/IMF
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...82C0KP20120313
The ''Street'' arwill like this ...
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Old 2012-03-14, 04:38   Link #20133
Zakoo
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How much until their salary becomes worse than China? Seriously those guys are as.good as dead.
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Old 2012-03-14, 04:53   Link #20134
aohige
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One group is lazier than the other.

.....I'll let you guess which.
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Old 2012-03-14, 05:05   Link #20135
Tom Bombadil
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How much until their salary becomes worse than China? Seriously those guys are as.good as dead.
Why shouldn't they if they are not more productive?
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Old 2012-03-14, 05:06   Link #20136
0utf0xZer0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
There's no need to call out Muslims on this one - your statement would have been perfectly valid leaving it as talking about any religious fanatic. To call out Muslims makes it seem as if you're targeting them specifically and giving everyone else a free pass.


The point I was trying to make is that the outrage was likely over more than just the book itself. Think of how Americans perceive it when people in other nations burn our flag: is the outrage really over the burnt flag? No, of course not. It's over what it represents, and the people who burn the flags might as well be spitting in the faces of every American who sees what they've done. It's disrespect of the highest degree.

The Koran may not be something that represents a nation, but those who identify with a religious group are prone to take offense if something tied to their religion is being desecrated. It's something that is tied to them. So, as if we haven't already given many people in that region reasons to hate us, we go and essentially gave them all the finger with that action. It was a catalyst that led to retaliation. I'm not trying to justify the retaliation, but I understand where it was coming from.
So in basic "Thank you for not showing even basic respect to our culture. Now GTFO."?

Given what I've read about Afghanistan that sounds entirely plausible. The US is often disliked for perceived imperialism (supporting various regimes, mainly) in the muslim world (exception: the slavic countries, because the US stood up for muslims in Yugoslavia (eventually) and most muslims don't like Russia much either), but in Afghanistan it's made much, much worse by the medieval style tribal loyalties and blood feuds. An awful lot of Afghanis don't appreciate American values (looking back on it, I can't help but think people were naive to think this wouldn't be the case) and find the presence of American troops offensive. And those that do support the Americans tend to be those who have blood feuds with the Taliban - I kind of doubt they support the US because they like the US.
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Old 2012-03-14, 06:41   Link #20137
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
Why shouldn't they if they are not more productive?
Actually the size of government officials speak volumes (pun unintended), have you see how fat their finance minister is?
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2012-03-14, 07:45   Link #20138
Zakoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
Why shouldn't they if they are not more productive?
Maybe because of way of living, conditions of living, social factors, inflation, control over money anc a lot of others factors.

And productivity has nothing to do with it, china sell its things cheaper than what.it costs them to produce, it s not dumping anymore, it s hysteria.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/id...20310?irpc=932
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Old 2012-03-14, 09:14   Link #20139
Dhomochevsky
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The problem is not their productivity, or that they are lazy, or anything like that.

Their businesses are just in a habit to not pay taxes. At all.

I am not sure how this works. Maybe it's corruption, or no one really cared. In the end, it does not matter how good or bad their economy is with tax returns like that.
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Old 2012-03-14, 09:55   Link #20140
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
The problem is not their productivity, or that they are lazy, or anything like that.

Their businesses are just in a habit to not pay taxes. At all.

I am not sure how this works. Maybe it's corruption, or no one really cared. In the end, it does not matter how good or bad their economy is with tax returns like that.
The corporate tax rate is 24% and income tax can go up to 40%, but the consumption rate is still high. It could be due to unwillingness to save by the general citizenry given the cheap cost of imported goods from China.

OTOH :

Goldman Sachs director in London quits 'toxic' bank
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