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Old 2012-03-15, 01:08   Link #20161
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Religion and Governments are just two things that shouldn't mix. I won't pass any judgement on the religions, but I will on the people in charge that gave orders to carry out these attrocities.
Which atrocities?
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Old 2012-03-15, 01:17   Link #20162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
Which atrocities?
Just pick one of the Middle Eastern theocracies (Iran is a good topic, of course) of which they use their divine right to casually ignore basic human rights. And the now defunct Taliban's treatment of women.
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Old 2012-03-15, 01:22   Link #20163
Urzu 7
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Okay, gotcha. Wasn't sure what you were referring to.
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Old 2012-03-15, 01:39   Link #20164
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To add to my previous point:

It may be true that those over there do not share the same values as the western world, but it shouldn't be so violent. It would seem like to me that the dictatorships are effectively using radical elements of their beliefs to portray the western world as being out to destroy everything they stand for, and that the world will end if they even consider agreeing to anything those nations have to say and offer. It doesn't help when there is a strong anti-islamic sentiment that does exist in the United States.

We can look at other examples. The Soviet Union portrayed the Americans as imperialistic oppressors that made life terrible for its citizens. And of course their country was kicking that other country's ass in everything. We did the same.

North Korea would have propaganda about how stuff like foreign entertainment was inferior (implying that outsiders were imperialistic aggressors that were jealous. )

So I guess you could definitely replace radical Islam with [insert ideology here] but some are sadly more convenient to use. One's spiritual beliefs are the closest to one's emotions and are far easier to trigger.
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Old 2012-03-15, 02:09   Link #20165
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As far as I know, military power is what actually keeps dictators in their seats. The long-serving dictators in ME don't really portray themselves as divine-inspired. Dictators don't use religion to portray the West as evil imperialists. They just need to teach history to the kids. Only Iran is a real theocracy, but only because they went through an Islamic Revolution.

While religion is certainly a significant force in driving hostility between the West and the Muslim world, I think you have overstated the influence of religion in their government.
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Old 2012-03-15, 02:29   Link #20166
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In Muslim countries, they do indeed use piety to help generate more anti-American sentiments. It is a contributing factor. They will use things like a rampant porn industry and abortion being legalized to help rally devout Muslim people to be against western civilization. But it is so much more than just merely these things that have many Muslims hating westerners. A lot of that is due to their leaders grossly misrepresenting westerners on the whole. I agree with what some people just posted, a lot of their hate isn't really justified, but rather created because their leaders (government and religious leaders) absolutely portray westerners in the worst ways they can. A lot of Muslims who are very isolated from the global community think virtually all westerners are terrible, bad people because their leaders portray them to be that way, which is very unfortunate.

It bothers me when this bigot said this complete BS about the 9/11 attacks being because of things like abortion being legal and gays being in American society and being tolerated. Was that Jerry Falwell?
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Old 2012-03-15, 02:57   Link #20167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
As far as I know, military power is what actually keeps dictators in their seats. The long-serving dictators in ME don't really portray themselves as divine-inspired. Dictators don't use religion to portray the West as evil imperialists. They just need to teach history to the kids. Only Iran is a real theocracy, but only because they went through an Islamic Revolution.

While religion is certainly a significant force in driving hostility between the West and the Muslim world, I think you have overstated the influence of religion in their government.
Well, I did say you could have replace [Insert Ideology Here] in a different scenario. But it's what we have now.

Force and coercion is certainly one way to keep in power, but it's only part of the equation. How many leaders throughout history have seized power by force, only to be overthrown or assassinated? A leader has to try and establish some kind of legitimacy even though it might be bullshit. Kim Jong Il had his cult of personality. Hitler and Stalin portrayed themselves as saviors of their own countries.

When I mean Divine Right, I mean that they basically assert the cause that God is on their side. Death to the infidel has long been a battlecry.

I mean sure, the West have tried to impose their hegemony on this area, but they are certainly not the evil monsters they portray us, or at least not as much as the evil monsters the Fox News pundits would love you to believe Islam is.

Coercion and force can only go so far. After all, nobody wants to see themselves as evil. Armies don't fight of their own accord. You can't just intimidate soldiers all the time especially if they figure they can just kill you and assume power. What works better than a million soldiers is fear. First, fear of authority. What's even better than that? Fear of the enemy, so they will have to rely on authority. And when they believe this is just... then violence occurs. The War on Terrorism is the same thing.

You cannot hold down a people simply by force. Just look at Iraq. The US may have defeated Iraq's army quickly and made taking over the country look easy, but to this very day, even with the most advanced military in the world couldn't constantly keep order-- it was still a clusterfuck years after the invasion started. If the people see a need to resist when pushed, they will. It's easy to kill people, keeping them under control is another story.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2012-03-15 at 03:07.
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Old 2012-03-15, 03:15   Link #20168
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One factor I seldom see mentioned regarding muslim perceptions of America is that many of the dictatorships actually do have close ties to the US. There's a widespread perception that a major cause of the corrupt regimes there is American thirst for oil.

So if you're an extremist, instead of fighting in Saudi Arabia itself, where you'd be killing other muslims, you go attack their benefactor and draw them into a war that will leave them a husk of what they once were, unable to support the regimes they once did. That's essentially Al Queda's endgame. It's no surprise that many of its leaders are guys fought the almighty Russians in Afghanistan and won. They think since God willed they can beat the Russians, the same will apply to the other meddling infidels as well.

This is also why the only US interventions that muslims really appreciated are those that took place in Yugoslavia. Muslim dictators kill a lot of muslims too, when the US takes one out it's all to easy to say "they only did it because he stepped out of line".

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And with that I'm not going to post for a while... term paper due in two weeks.
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Old 2012-03-15, 03:30   Link #20169
ganbaru
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Demographics, local tastes fuel Arab video game industry
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...82D10N20120314

Marines to cut four battalions, 12 air squadrons
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...82E00Y20120315
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Old 2012-03-15, 12:15   Link #20170
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The news however came too late for early newspaper editions, which focused largely on Premier Wen Jiabao's news conference following a parliamentary annual session held yesterday morning.
There has been intense speculation about Bo Xilai's position since February when his former chief of police spent a few hours at a US consulate in Sichuan Province, provoking rumours that he was seeking asylum. He is also thought to have upset some in the leadership with a high profile campaign against corruption and a revival of Maoist ideology.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-17382687

more then anything else this is why he is gone. too many people who live through the culture revolution don't want to see a sequel.
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Old 2012-03-15, 14:50   Link #20171
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British Home Secretary Theresa May allows US to extradite a university student accused of running an illegal hyperlinking site.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...om-england.ars

Why do other governments bend over for the US?
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Old 2012-03-15, 14:55   Link #20172
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autumn Demon View Post
British Home Secretary Theresa May allows US to extradite a university student accused of running an illegal hyperlinking site.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...om-england.ars

Why do other governments bend over for the US?
because the US has the biggest stick.
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Old 2012-03-15, 15:12   Link #20173
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That's disgusting...
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Old 2012-03-15, 15:13   Link #20174
Kokukirin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
The news however came too late for early newspaper editions, which focused largely on Premier Wen Jiabao's news conference following a parliamentary annual session held yesterday morning.
There has been intense speculation about Bo Xilai's position since February when his former chief of police spent a few hours at a US consulate in Sichuan Province, provoking rumours that he was seeking asylum. He is also thought to have upset some in the leadership with a high profile campaign against corruption and a revival of Maoist ideology.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-17382687

more then anything else this is why he is gone. too many people who live through the culture revolution don't want to see a sequel.
Bo Xilai is hugely popular in Chongqing though. His tough stance on corruption is admired by many, including those who oppose his Maoist ideologies. Until his right-hand man spent a day in US consulate for mysterious reasons, he was widely expected to rise further in ranks. I think the incident is more damaging to him than his populist stance.

This being China, there are a lot of things going on behind the scenes. Most likely the faction that Bo Xilai champions for is losing the power struggle. We may never learn the real reason of his downfall.
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Old 2012-03-15, 15:25   Link #20175
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autumn Demon View Post
British Home Secretary Theresa May allows US to extradite a university student accused of running an illegal hyperlinking site.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/n...om-england.ars

Why do other governments bend over for the US?
Those governments resist turning over violent criminals, child molesters, rapists, etc.... but copyright violations? Poof, in a bag delivered.

Tells me who's calling the shots for more than one government, and it isn't "the people". :P

The ruling judge appears to have been a technical idiot (we have so many) but the Home Secretary was probably scotching up a few brownie points at the expense of this young man. The bad precedent for Animesuki is that its going to have be extra wary of hosting *any links* related to material originally produced by a company with any US basing (e.g. Sony).

Seriously, this is way out of hand. Arrested for *links* to copyright violation locations?
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Old 2012-03-15, 15:29   Link #20176
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A copyright violator isn't likely to be given the death penalty.

Most of the others are handed over like pulling teeth because of the moral differences on the death penalty between the US and other countries.
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Old 2012-03-15, 15:35   Link #20177
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
A copyright violator isn't likely to be given the death penalty.

Most of the others are handed over like pulling teeth because of the moral differences on the death penalty between the US and other countries.
True, but we do currently have penalties that, under any analysis, are grossly disproportionate for civil crimes. And it isn't that he was hosting the material itself - just links (somewhat like Google). It just has my "fucked" alarms going off.
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Old 2012-03-15, 15:55   Link #20178
ganbaru
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Iran cut off from global financial system
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...03-15-15-10-28
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Old 2012-03-15, 19:06   Link #20179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
True, but we do currently have penalties that, under any analysis, are grossly disproportionate for civil crimes. And it isn't that he was hosting the material itself - just links (somewhat like Google). It just has my "fucked" alarms going off.
We lost 50 years ago, when corporate interests became the various governments primary position. Seems the US isn't even going to act like it needed the PIPA/SOPA bills passed.
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Old 2012-03-15, 19:57   Link #20180
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Snapped by a DC cop as it passed by.... maybe extremists are going to stop pretending with all the word misuse (socialist, nazi, etc) and just misuse words they really mean:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/0...e-Nig-in-2012-

So.... more disturbing the SUV's owner thinks its okay to mount it on his car or more disturbing that someone sold it as a product?

Edit: hmm, perhaps this belongs in the elections thread...
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