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Old 2012-03-23, 17:53   Link #20441
Vexx
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Well.. the $$$$ problem is that people will stop having Facebook accounts (or any other traceable accounts) if the employers continue their steady march into territory that has literally nothing to do with the job needed doing.

HR are lazy goons, they want a checklist mentality so they don't have to think when sorting through applicants -- never mind it really doesn't improve the hiring manager's chances of getting good candidates. You might think my opinion of that corporate function is pretty low and you'd be right. They've shifted the emphasis from *supporting* the hiring managers to actually dominating and interfering with the hiring process - they ask the wrong questions (our dress code is more important than your skills) and they fail to ask the right questions (like "Do you know how to find a drive on a network?").
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Old 2012-03-23, 18:15   Link #20442
Kokukirin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Well.. the $$$$ problem is that people will stop having Facebook accounts (or any other traceable accounts) if the employers continue their steady march into territory that has literally nothing to do with the job needed doing.
If it is truly irrelevant, the employer would not have bothered with your FB account at all. When people look at job applications, they don't just look at the skills and experience section. They also want to know what kind of person the applicant is. The person's FB history is an excellent source of that. Some people aren't so careful about what they post on FB. So the employer will get to see the side of applicants that the application does not reveal.

Quote:
HR are lazy goons, they want a checklist mentality so they don't have to think when sorting through applicants -- never mind it really doesn't improve the hiring manager's chances of getting good candidates. You might think my opinion of that corporate function is pretty low and you'd be right. They've shifted the emphasis from *supporting* the hiring managers to actually dominating and interfering with the hiring process - they ask the wrong questions (our dress code is more important than your skills) and they fail to ask the right questions (like "Do you know how to find a drive on a network?").
I doubt it is generally true. It may be the case for the companies you have worked on. But more likely the culture is different from one place to another.
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Old 2012-03-23, 18:26   Link #20443
Ithekro
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Checking you out on Facebook is one thing, asking for access to it is something else.

If HR want to run a background check, they got to do it the old fashion way.
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Old 2012-03-23, 18:49   Link #20444
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
If it is truly irrelevant, the employer would not have bothered with your FB account at all. When people look at job applications, they don't just look at the skills and experience section. They also want to know what kind of person the applicant is. The person's FB history is an excellent source of that. Some people aren't so careful about what they post on FB. So the employer will get to see the side of applicants that the application does not reveal.


I doubt it is generally true. It may be the case for the companies you have worked on. But more likely the culture is different from one place to another.
Maybe you don't have the experience I have with corporate America and the human relations function that I have but that post comes across as basically apologist meme talk. There simply isn't much supporting data for those assertions. You don't have any basis for "doubting it is generally true". In my case, it comes from the experiences of many colleagues, the HR Industry trade magazines, following the studies on hiring practices, etc. The science simply isn't supporting their practices. They are simply looking for any way they can to reduce the pile of applications and that's the best that one can say about it.

There's also the *legal* aspects of privacy - companies aren't allowed to ask you many questions in an interview or application (e.g., if you are married, do you believe in God, what political party do you belong to, etc) but hey presto that's on your private section of Facebook. They are coercing you to provide that information by demanding access to your account. It is functionally equivalent to demanding to search your premises before hiring you. There's really no such thing as "voluntary" in a job interview - it isn't a "two equals" situation. Many states have already passed laws against doing credit check backgrounds. States are also passing laws against discriminating against the unemployed in hiring.

Personally, I've been passed over a few times and the reason given is "overqualified" -- that usually is code for "age discrimination" or "we don't hire someone if they made more at their last job". Do IT support for a few companies with HR departments and you hear a lot of things as well
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Last edited by Vexx; 2012-03-23 at 19:18.
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Old 2012-03-23, 18:57   Link #20445
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Teen Hate Crime: 13-Year-Old Kansas City Boy Set on Fire While Walking From School


http://www.gimmemo.com/03/2012/teen-...walking-school
Sadly, because this is Kansas, I don't believe it was two black teenagers that assualted the kid. I mean, read this line:

Quote:
"'This is what you deserve. You get what you deserve, white boy.'"
That just sounds like something that would be added to a fabricated hate crime, no? And if two black teens wanted to commit a hate crime against a white teen in Kansas, why? Why would they do that? Are they suicidal? Two black teens doing something like that in Kansas would guarantee their murders if caught, if not by civilians, then surely by some white dudes in prison.

Really, anyone else think that account is really fishy? I sure do. I have my doubts.
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Old 2012-03-23, 19:03   Link #20446
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
Sadly, because this is Kansas, I don't believe it was two black teenagers that assualted the kid. I mean, read this line:



That just sounds like something that would be added to a fabricated hate crime, no? And if two black teens wanted to commit a hate crime against a white teen in Kansas, why? Why would they do that? Are they suicidal? Two black teens doing something like that in Kansas would guarantee their murders if caught, if not by civilians, then surely by some white dudes in prison.

Really, anyone else think that account is really fishy? I sure do. I have my doubts.
My credibility indicator is shrieking on the red zone on that news article...

The NYDAILYTIMES is a real piece of shoddy work to begin with, I google around on the site -- its full of "hate crime" articles and lots of tabloid, but could not find this story.

KMBC.com (otoh) had a story buried in the back about it. I'm wondering about the family name and how that plays into it. Its also apparently the case no one was home when the boy was home; there aren't corroborating witnesses mentioned.
http://www.kmbc.com/news/30572405/detail.html

I'm not saying it didn't happen - I'm saying the coverage and information sucked, it was focused on "how terrible it was".

Our local news reported a 200 yr old tree falling downtown, hitting a church, and injuring someone .... all the reporters spent 90% of the air time talking about "what if" scenarios (what if it had been 30 minutes earlier when school let out, o think of the children!! what if it had been in the height of rush hour?). Well that isn't news, that's just anxiety spiraling and amplification --- not informing.
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Old 2012-03-23, 19:30   Link #20447
Urzu 7
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
...but I actually do expect China civil servants to show some sense of responsibility being the next superpower taking over US.
Man, I really hope not. Their government is just so scary and corrupt. If they become the next superpower in our lifetimes, we can only hope that soon after their rise to that status, their society has a revolution where democracy takes a hold and they actually become good with human rights.
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Old 2012-03-23, 21:02   Link #20448
monsta666
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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
Man, I really hope not. Their government is just so scary and corrupt. If they become the next superpower in our lifetimes, we can only hope that soon after their rise to that status, their society has a revolution where democracy takes a hold and they actually become good with human rights.
I doubt they will become the next superpower. Not even sure they would become the number one economy at least not for a decent length of time or on a meaningful level. At the end of the day China does not have a democracy. If the economy tanks (which it will at some point) then there is a very good chance of a political upheaval.
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Old 2012-03-23, 22:10   Link #20449
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Clean? NO
Competent? Yes
You know, for some jobs, you might prefer than the peoples doing them to be clean before being competent .
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Old 2012-03-23, 23:15   Link #20450
GundamFan0083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
Sadly, because this is Kansas, I don't believe it was two black teenagers that assualted the kid. I mean, read this line:



That just sounds like something that would be added to a fabricated hate crime, no? And if two black teens wanted to commit a hate crime against a white teen in Kansas, why? Why would they do that? Are they suicidal? Two black teens doing something like that in Kansas would guarantee their murders if caught, if not by civilians, then surely by some white dudes in prison.

Really, anyone else think that account is really fishy? I sure do. I have my doubts.
I'd like more information on this story and was hoping somebody here may have heard more about it or had a link to more info on it.
I do not share you cynicism BTW.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post

KMBC.com (otoh) had a story buried in the back about it. I'm wondering about the family name and how that plays into it. Its also apparently the case no one was home when the boy was home; there aren't corroborating witnesses mentioned.
http://www.kmbc.com/news/30572405/detail.html

I'm not saying it didn't happen - I'm saying the coverage and information sucked, it was focused on "how terrible it was".
I agree, it would be nice if they explained what the hell happened in greater detail and what, if any, follow up has been done by the police.
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Old 2012-03-23, 23:17   Link #20451
Kokukirin
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Originally Posted by monsta666 View Post
I doubt they will become the next superpower. Not even sure they would become the number one economy at least not for a decent length of time or on a meaningful level. At the end of the day China does not have a democracy. If the economy tanks (which it will at some point) then there is a very good chance of a political upheaval.
But China has such a huge population. If their GDP per capita is 1/4 of US, China would still surpass US as the biggest economy of the world. Barring some catastrophic event, China will become more and more dominant in the world in coming decades. Its undemocratic government is also very stable and keeps a tight control on all matters. It's hard to see how the CCP can lose its grip in the next decade or two.
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Old 2012-03-24, 00:01   Link #20452
Ithekro
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There is more to being a superpower than population. Sometimes even economy is not enough really. It takes a country willing to influence a very large section of the world and more or less dominate it. It does not take a democracy to do that. But it does take a country willing to dominate. Historically speaking, that is not China's character. Even in the days we it pretty much was the economic and population leader of the planet...it didn't care to dominate. Everyone goes to China. All gold comes to China. There is nothing else the world has that China wants. That was pretty much China from Roman Times until the Opium Wars.
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Old 2012-03-24, 00:09   Link #20453
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Well.. the $$$$ problem is that people will stop having Facebook accounts (or any other traceable accounts) if the employers continue their steady march into territory that has literally nothing to do with the job needed doing.

HR are lazy goons, they want a checklist mentality so they don't have to think when sorting through applicants -- never mind it really doesn't improve the hiring manager's chances of getting good candidates. You might think my opinion of that corporate function is pretty low and you'd be right. They've shifted the emphasis from *supporting* the hiring managers to actually dominating and interfering with the hiring process - they ask the wrong questions (our dress code is more important than your skills) and they fail to ask the right questions (like "Do you know how to find a drive on a network?").
I once worked under a HR department before as a temp, and I think it is the mentality of the majority that resulted in this issue in the company. I was hired to help clear up the paperwork of a 60-year-old grandmother who's retiring, and she told me how HR has changed over the past 40 years (old grandmother story, but nonetheless interesting) in her line. She said that she was once hiring engineers and in the early 1990s, computer consultants, and the companies she shifted to-and-fro from started to incline towards "well-dressed lazy applicants" instead of "wizards in T-shirts and jeans who would ask to come back on weekends to fix the projectors and machines for Monday's meeting".

She also mentioned that the directors are too busy sealing business deals outside to update on current knowledge, and the new managers have no interest in their line, just coming to work for the sake of taking home a paycheck.
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Old 2012-03-24, 00:12   Link #20454
Urzu 7
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If I live to be an old man, I want to see China progress very much with human rights and become much more ethical over the coming decades. It'd be good not just for their nation, but for other nations, too.
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Old 2012-03-24, 00:24   Link #20455
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I once worked under a HR department before as a temp, and I think it is the mentality of the majority that resulted in this issue in the company. I was hired to help clear up the paperwork of a 60-year-old grandmother who's retiring, and she told me how HR has changed over the past 40 years (old grandmother story, but nonetheless interesting) in her line. She said that she was once hiring engineers and in the early 1990s, computer consultants, and the companies she shifted to-and-fro from started to incline towards "well-dressed lazy applicants" instead of "wizards in T-shirts and jeans who would ask to come back on weekends to fix the projectors and machines for Monday's meeting".

She also mentioned that the directors are too busy sealing business deals outside to update on current knowledge, and the new managers have no interest in their line, just coming to work for the sake of taking home a paycheck.
Bingo... Its generally considered in the professional ranks that Dilbert's comics are "not a joke" - they just document the decay/corruption of the environment - particular the "operational costs" departments (as opposed to the "profit center" departments).
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Old 2012-03-24, 00:40   Link #20456
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Bingo... Its generally considered in the professional ranks that Dilbert's comics are "not a joke" - they just document the decay/corruption of the environment - particular the "operational costs" departments (as opposed to the "profit center" departments).
*looks at today's dilbert


So vexx, did you miss your nemesis?
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Old 2012-03-24, 00:42   Link #20457
Vexx
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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
*looks at today's dilbert


So vexx, did you miss your nemesis?
Hmmm, I had several nemesis assignments over my career - usually they were "some other department boss". Sometimes it became a moral imperative to rid the group of them
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Old 2012-03-24, 01:38   Link #20458
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Bingo... Its generally considered in the professional ranks that Dilbert's comics are "not a joke" - they just document the decay/corruption of the environment - particular the "operational costs" departments (as opposed to the "profit center" departments).
During my tenure there only the legal department people likes her, the rest of them call her an "outdated fogey who can't keep up with the times". I think I can see why; the company hires and contracts out computer engineers to fix mainframes and overhaul the software for offices, and the clients won't be happy to hear that the people hired by the company are sub-par.

One of the legal dept people told me over lunch that thanks to her, he doesn't have alot of paperwork to do, and towkay (big boss in Hokkien, meaning the owner of the company) stays out of the office to play golf; allowing them to have an easy time. He remarked that the people of my age are becoming more useless.....companies are hiring for "fresh faces to attract customers" but they are not taking into account the ones with better capability.
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Old 2012-03-24, 02:30   Link #20459
Kokukirin
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
There is more to being a superpower than population. Sometimes even economy is not enough really. It takes a country willing to influence a very large section of the world and more or less dominate it. It does not take a democracy to do that. But it does take a country willing to dominate. Historically speaking, that is not China's character. Even in the days we it pretty much was the economic and population leader of the planet...it didn't care to dominate. Everyone goes to China. All gold comes to China. There is nothing else the world has that China wants. That was pretty much China from Roman Times until the Opium Wars.
Every superpower projects its influence as far as it can go. Ancient China was not an exception.

The single most important factor is the geographical limits. To the west are high mountains and deserts, to the north is a big grassland, to the east is Pacific Ocean, and to the south is present-day Vietnam and Cambodia where climate and trophical disease (malaria) are too hostile for Han Chinese. These are lands that would take immense resources to invade but gain little in return. There were few incentives for emperors to attack unless there was a need. Most expeditions were held to repel invasions from the north.

It is a poor generalization to say China was not aggressive. It went through dozens of dynasties in its history, some stronger than others. And they follow different policies regarding foreign nations. There were examples of Chinese emperors deciding to invade if neighbouring nations refused to accept their rule and pay tributes. Sui Dynasty invaded present-day Southern Vietnam and Korea. Qing invaded Mongolia, Xinjiang, Sichuanm, etc. Emperors tend to view all area within his influence as part of his kingdom, and any dissent would be seen as a rebellion.

The geographical and technological issues that stopped ancient China from expanding further are largely gone. Already China is more assertive to its claim to outlying islands in the Pacific. Obviously it is not about to invade anyone in near future. Its military might is still many decades from catching up to US. But as China grows in strength and US seemingly on a gradual (relative) decline. It will almost certainly seek to increase its own sphere of influence. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. It is the way of every powerful nation in history. China is no exception.
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Old 2012-03-24, 03:33   Link #20460
ganbaru
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
He remarked that the people of my age are becoming more useless.....companies are hiring for "fresh faces to attract customers" but they are not taking into account the ones with better capability.
For the place I worked, I would have to agree with the guy about the uselessness but at least, they weren't looking for ''young face to attract the customers'' for the kitchen staffs.
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