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Old 2012-04-30, 14:36   Link #21161
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Former Israeli Premier Assails Netanyahu on Iran
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/30/wo...u-on-iran.html
Meanwhile we also have Experts Believe Iran Conflict Is Less Likely.

Quote:
They cite a series of factors that, for now, argue against a conflict. The threat of tighter economic sanctions has prompted the Iranians to try more flexible tactics in their dealings with the United States and other powers, while the revival of direct negotiations has tempered the most inflammatory talk on all sides.

A growing divide in Israel between political leaders and military and intelligence officials over the wisdom of attacking Iran has begun to surface. And the White House appears determined to prevent any confrontation that could disrupt world oil markets in an election year.
Could it be that cooler heads are at last prevailing?
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Old 2012-04-30, 14:52   Link #21162
Roger Rambo
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Quote:
“As a concerned Israeli citizen who lives in the state of Israel with his family and all of his children and grandchildren,” he said, “I love very much the courage of those who live 10,000 miles away from the state of Israel and are ready that we will make every possible mistake that will cost lives of Israelis.”
Spot on pretty much, though it sounds like he was pretty flustered and angry.
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Old 2012-04-30, 16:07   Link #21163
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Spot on pretty much, though it sounds like he was pretty flustered and angry.
I think than he got enough reason to be.
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Old 2012-04-30, 17:23   Link #21164
AnimeFan188
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Ex-CIA Interrogator: Obama's War on Terror Is Less Ethical Than Bush's

"The former head of the CIA's Clandestine Service Jose Rodriguez says President
Obama is waging the nation's war against radical Islam in a far more brutal
manner than his predecessor President George W. Bush.

"We don't capture anybody any more," Rodriguez told 60 Minutes' Lesley Stahl on
Sunday. "Their default option of this Administration has been to ... take no
prisoners ... How could it be more ethical to kill people rather than capture them?
I never understood that one.""

See:

http://gma.yahoo.com/ex-cia-interrog...134551480.html
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Old 2012-04-30, 17:45   Link #21165
Vexx
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Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeFan188 View Post
"The former head of the CIA's Clandestine Service Jose Rodriguez says President
Obama is waging the nation's war against radical Islam in a far more brutal
manner than his predecessor President George W. Bush.

"We don't capture anybody any more," Rodriguez told 60 Minutes' Lesley Stahl on
Sunday. "Their default option of this Administration has been to ... take no
prisoners ... How could it be more ethical to kill people rather than capture them?
I never understood that one.""

See:

http://gma.yahoo.com/ex-cia-interrog...134551480.html
I watched the whole interview and have read other transcripts of interviews with him....

When you listen to him, he's a rational scary kind of guy - the sort of person who is able to walk down the dots from "good guy" to "its okay to commit genocide because we had a process in place".

What we saw in the Bush.... well, Cheney power structure was echoes of how a country can move from trying to do good to psychotic evil.

Where Jose completely misses the boat is that he *may* have saved a few Americans at some point (that simply isn't validated) but he and his cohorts CLEARLY has put us all in much much more danger if any of us are captured.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Oh my goodness you people are CANNIBALS.
Like a waifish little ghoulish necromancer I play in some of my MMOs likes to say, "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle! That's all I'm doing! <bright innocent smile>" as she audits the battlefield afterward looking for good parts.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2012-04-30 at 19:04.
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Old 2012-04-30, 18:51   Link #21166
Roger Rambo
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It's probably not a matter of ethics. It's probably a matter of the administration realizing what a cluster fuck it turned in trying to apply a system of legal justice to people you tortured to get information out of. Anything short of a Kangaroo court would never convict anybody who'd been detained like that, and the Bush Administration tried.


still, there's something weird about torture advocates calling foul on killing terrorists.
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Old 2012-04-30, 18:59   Link #21167
Ithekro
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Well....you can't get information out of a dead man....
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Old 2012-04-30, 19:08   Link #21168
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Well....you can't get information out of a dead man....
Is the information obtained from a tortured individual really usefull or reliable ?
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Old 2012-04-30, 19:16   Link #21169
PzIVf3
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HK protesters turn out to support Chen Guangcheng
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqh...uangcheng_news
http://www.nbc33tv.com/news/national...r-in-hong-kong

Edit:

China stays silent on blind activist as US talks begin
http://www.smh.com.au/world/china-st...430-1xv6f.html
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Old 2012-04-30, 19:17   Link #21170
Ithekro
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Unknown.

However, as Napoleon found out, sometimes it isn't wise to just release an enemy, as they might just come back and attack you again.
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Old 2012-04-30, 19:36   Link #21171
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Is the information obtained from a tortured individual really usefull or reliable ?
No, they tell you what you want to hear.... which may only reinforce an incorrect belief. That's been established by that bogeyman of the GOP... ya know, *science*. Data from torture has a high risk of being bullshit.

Example: accused witches would often finger other "witches" when "encouraged" just to make the pain stop. None, of course, were witches at all. But that's not what the torturer's wanted to hear.

So even ignoring any ethical or "high road" considerations, information gathered that way is more likely to do damage than help.

The best data has always come from getting the captive to drop their guard and relax, they inevitably slip and say stuff. The *best* interrogators know this.
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Old 2012-04-30, 20:33   Link #21172
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
No, they tell you what you want to hear.... which may only reinforce an incorrect belief. That's been established by that bogeyman of the GOP... ya know, *science*.
I thought than it was more the other one, '' history'', than ''science''.
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Old 2012-04-30, 20:50   Link #21173
Roger Rambo
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Re:Torture.

This reminds me of the Japanese taking this Navajo soldier (who'd enlisted prior to all Navajo recruits being redirected to the windtalkers) prisoner, then making him listen to radio broadcasts the Marines were making with Navajo speakers, which the Japanese had no idea how to translate or decipher.

So the Japanese have the only Navajo speaker they have access to listen to the radio broadcasts. And what does he say?

"This is Navajo, but it's complete nonsense talk. I have no idea what they're talking about"

And with quite good reason. The Military didn't just have Navajo over the radio. They had basic elementary code words for important military terms.



The Japanese response? They decided the guy had to be lying, tortured him more, then just threw their hands up and assumed everything he said was bullshit. This episode was the closest the the Japanese ever came to figuring out what was going on with the tactical radio codes the US military used in the pacific, and they blew it because of typical Jack Bauer 24 bullshit.
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Old 2012-04-30, 23:08   Link #21174
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Is the information obtained from a tortured individual really usefull or reliable ?
You decide.
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Old 2012-04-30, 23:42   Link #21175
Vexx
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Well... it looks like *some* people in Oklahoma have a clue, whether you're for or against abortion - this law is a insane piece of nonsense with cartloads of collateral damage potential. Obviously, it isn't science but it also is damaged ethically/religiously/morally. I'd even go so far as to call it "cult insanity".

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/30/151733...rt?ft=1&f=1001
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Old 2012-05-01, 00:03   Link #21176
flying ^
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i have no dog in that fight but it sure is failing even in reddest states.... so looks like i won't lose sleep over this.
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Old 2012-05-01, 00:10   Link #21177
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Well... it looks like *some* people in Oklahoma have a clue, whether you're for or against abortion - this law is a insane piece of nonsense with cartloads of collateral damage potential. Obviously, it isn't science but it also is damaged ethically/religiously/morally. I'd even go so far as to call it "cult insanity".

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/30/151733...rt?ft=1&f=1001
From the article:

Quote:
Ryan Kiesel, executive director of the ACLU's Oklahoma chapter and a former Democratic lawmaker, said the court's decision Monday supports the notion that a woman and her family, "and not the government," should be making decisions on reproductive health care.
But...I thought the GOP was for small government.
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Old 2012-05-01, 00:47   Link #21178
Ithekro
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The Republican Party, traditionally, is for small government. At least from what I recall. Though the Republican Party of Reagan is not exactly the same as the Republican Party of Eisenhower, and certainly not the Party of either Teddy Roosevelt or Lincoln. And the GOP is for sure not the Republican Party of Reagan. It may have hints of it, but the changes seem to be almost two different parties even post-Civil Rights Movement shift (the near swapping of the Democrats and Republicans in terms of demographics and policies following the days of Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon)
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Old 2012-05-01, 04:35   Link #21179
ganbaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
But...I thought the GOP was for small government.
They would probably try to keep some part of the gouvernement small, but only the ones than they don't like.
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Old 2012-05-01, 04:38   Link #21180
Anh_Minh
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Yes, and they'll get on that as soon as they can get a consensus on which parts to do away with.
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