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Old 2012-05-06, 16:08   Link #21281
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
Well, they already are. Through bi-lateral agreements, ESFS, ESM and ECB. *sigh*
Yeah, but those are all for damage control. I'd like to say emergencies, but that'd imply a more transient state than what we have.

Hollande is more ambitious and blatant about that spending thing.
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Old 2012-05-06, 16:18   Link #21282
sneaker
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Maybe Germany should do that, too. Print as much money as possible and build lots of infrastructure. New power plants, fiber optics in every household, 10 lane Autobahns and a Transrapid network. When the card house finally collapses, Germany wouldn't then sit on useless paper. Through all those guarantees Germany has tied its fate to that of Europe, so it will not be able to avoid being dragged into bankruptcy. Every little Euro country is now able to extort even more money from it.
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Old 2012-05-06, 16:22   Link #21283
Anh_Minh
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I'm not opposed to great public works, but I'm not sure that's really what Holland has in mind.
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Old 2012-05-06, 16:23   Link #21284
Zakoo
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Are you implying that others euro countries print as much money as possible?

Well whatever, Germany has good export balance with EU, and for the time being it wins from this, the moment they won't win anymore, there will be change, and it's very understandable.
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Old 2012-05-06, 16:28   Link #21285
sneaker
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The PIIGS and France have control over the ECB, which is printing money illegally. For example they now give credits with only 1% interest and accept Portuguese bonds which are dated to the year 9999 as "collateral". Spain and Italy are using similar tricks to refinance themselves and their banks. Otherwise all of the southern nations would've been insolvent already.

The money that Germany has to put in to save e.g. Greece is totally out of relation to what Germany exports to them. Greece only imports goods worth about 6 Bn Euro annually from Germany - or rather did, before their recession.
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Old 2012-05-06, 16:40   Link #21286
Dhomochevsky
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Join Date: May 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
Are you implying that others euro countries print as much money as possible?

Well whatever, Germany has good export balance with EU, and for the time being it wins from this, the moment they won't win anymore, there will be change, and it's very understandable.
A good export balance is only a benefit, if the EU can pay for the things we sell.

If they pay with money they do not have in the first place, then in the end we will both lose our exported goods and sit on a pile of worthless debts, that will never get payed back, while everyone else just defaults.

We have the same problem with the US already, who will also never pay back on their negative import/export balance.

A positive export balance is hailed as the holy grail of capitalism for some reason, but it does nothing good for quality of living in the country.
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Old 2012-05-06, 17:04   Link #21287
Bri
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Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
A good export balance is only a benefit, if the EU can pay for the things we sell.

If they pay with money they do not have in the first place, then in the end we will both lose our exported goods and sit on a pile of worthless debts, that will never get payed back, while everyone else just defaults.

We have the same problem with the US already, who will also never pay back on their negative import/export balance.

A positive export balance is hailed as the holy grail of capitalism for some reason, but it does nothing good for quality of living in the country.
For some reason mercantilism keeps rearing it's ugly head.

Healthy government finances is one thing, but at the moment in Europe it seems like a race to the bottom on whoever can cut it's social spending the most.
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Old 2012-05-06, 19:07   Link #21288
Xellos-_^
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On April 22, about 200 activists broke a lock on a gate near Marin and San Pablo avenues and set up camp on the property known as the Gill Tract. The group planted carrot, broccoli and corn seedlings on part of the land as a protest against planned housing and commercial development nearby.

University officials claim the protesters have disrupted agricultural research by faculty scientists and students in the College of Natural Resources. At one point, Mogulof said, the squatters pruned some fruit trees on the property and explained to the dean of resources that they had to do it because the trees were diseased. Turns out the pruned greenery were part of a research project on how diseases affect fruit trees, he said.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...E350.DTL&tsp=1
so when is occupy going to grow up?
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Old 2012-05-06, 19:12   Link #21289
germanturkey
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i want to see what happens if he actually does enact the 75% tax on the rich. keep taking money away, and soon there will be no more money to take. then what?
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Old 2012-05-06, 19:37   Link #21290
solomon
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I'm an American so I have a skewed perspective, but I still don't see why Sarko was so villified.

Frankly, some of his economic reforms he proposed did seem like they were long overdue for France. It's a wealthy powerful country yet still has some stodgy labor laws.

Holland seems to want stimulus on steroids, which is understandable in theory but probably wont be very good for the country's balance sheet.

I'm pretty sure he will have to tone it down somewhat once he has to deal with the Berlin Bigwigs though.

As for Greece what can I tell you?

Is there anyone here who thinks Greece can "go it alone" like some of those fringe parties are harping about.
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Old 2012-05-06, 19:39   Link #21291
Bri
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Originally Posted by germanturkey View Post
i want to see what happens if he actually does enact the 75% tax on the rich. keep taking money away, and soon there will be no more money to take. then what?
Nothing much, tax revenue will go up a bit, that's about it. A 75% tax-rate on annual income over 1 million euro isn't going to affect many people. The US in the post-WWII era until Reagan had at times tax-rates of 90% on income over $300k.
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Old 2012-05-06, 19:45   Link #21292
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by germanturkey View Post
i want to see what happens if he actually does enact the 75% tax on the rich. keep taking money away, and soon there will be no more money to take. then what?
Um, history assignment -- that simply doesn't happen. During the Eisenhower period, top tax rates were 90% and it was the largest expansion of wealth, expansion of the middle class, improvement in quality of life - ever seen in the US. Nearly everyone's boat rose.
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Old 2012-05-06, 20:01   Link #21293
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Um, history assignment -- that simply doesn't happen. During the Eisenhower period, top tax rates were 90% and it was the largest expansion of wealth, expansion of the middle class, improvement in quality of life - ever seen in the US. Nearly everyone's boat rose.
Problem is that the 1950's was when all the repressed consumerism exploded, leading to that expansion. You cannot compare that time with the rampant greed in modern days. Furthermore, in today's fast transactions, one can easily move wealth outside to tax havens. Simply, anyone who points to the 1950's to say high taxes are good need to get a reality check.
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Old 2012-05-06, 21:02   Link #21294
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Problem is that the 1950's was when all the repressed consumerism exploded, leading to that expansion. You cannot compare that time with the rampant greed in modern days. Furthermore, in today's fast transactions, one can easily move wealth outside to tax havens. Simply, anyone who points to the 1950's to say high taxes are good need to get a reality check.
I'm saying they aren't automatically evil. And the only way you can "move wealth outside" is if financial checks aren't in place to tax wealth moved offshore. Any tax reform would have to enable such checks.
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Old 2012-05-06, 22:00   Link #21295
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'm saying they aren't automatically evil. And the only way you can "move wealth outside" is if financial checks aren't in place to tax wealth moved offshore. Any tax reform would have to enable such checks.
Such checks are what largely inhibited growth of the economy. It's a double-edged sword: Do you get more money of a potentially slower growing and possibly reducing pie, or do you collect less money from a faster growing pie?
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Old 2012-05-06, 22:58   Link #21296
SaintessHeart
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Such checks are what largely inhibited growth of the economy. It's a double-edged sword: Do you get more money of a potentially slower growing and possibly reducing pie, or do you collect less money from a faster growing pie?
Note: You are supposed to eat the pie, not let the pie eat you.
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Old 2012-05-06, 23:03   Link #21297
Ithekro
The Comet IS Coming
 
 
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But most pie looks like Pac-man, and thus the pie eats you.
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Old 2012-05-06, 23:05   Link #21298
Vexx
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Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Such checks are what largely inhibited growth of the economy. It's a double-edged sword: Do you get more money of a potentially slower growing and possibly reducing pie, or do you collect less money from a faster growing pie?
The pie isn't growing faster for everyone in the latter scenario... its only growing for the .01%. Lets not fall into the "job creator" mythology...
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Old 2012-05-06, 23:51   Link #21299
Kusa-San
I'll end it before April.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I never really got why people disliked Sarkozy so much. At least he got things done, even if they weren't all things I agree with.

.
His politics was all about fear and division. He made the UMP a second FN...And I can continue like that...
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Old 2012-05-07, 00:08   Link #21300
Zakoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The pie isn't growing faster for everyone in the latter scenario... its only growing for the .01%. Lets not fall into the "job creator" mythology...
Whatever, we can argue like this for countless pages without convincing each others, we will see the results in 5 years, whether we are more in a derp situation and thus Sumeragi was probably right, or the opposite.

Why Sarkozy was hated? Men, I don't know what to tell you, when you say African people have no history, all civilisations aren't equals, playing with fire and racism, saying gtfo to Europe after 5 years of being a "pro europe" simply to get reelected, purposely lie in front of 17millions people watching you, not only you lose the few honor left but also the election seems like.
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