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Old 2012-08-23, 15:09   Link #23061
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The problem with this debate is that I've heard two sides now with conflicting information. One that a textbook removed history implicating the Japanese, and then another article saying the Japanese Supreme Court ruled that the same textbook could not removed said history.

Is it possible that the Chinese or American sources of information of Japanese textbooks is out of date, but prepetuated because it helps their own cases?

What are current Japanese school textbooks using rather than the ones from 1997 that was called on its nonsense by the Japanese themselves.
try looking on wiki but nothing about the japanese supreme court ruling. but did fine some fascinating fringe politician quotes

Quote:
In 2007, former education minister Nariaki Nakayama declared he was proud that the Liberal Democratic Party had succeeded in getting references to "wartime sex slaves" struck from most authorized history texts for junior high schools. "Our campaign worked, and people outside government also started raising their voices."[19] He also declared that he agreed with an e-mail sent to him saying that the "victimized women in Asia should be proud of being comfort women".[20]
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Last edited by Xellos-_^; 2012-08-23 at 15:33.
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Old 2012-08-23, 15:54   Link #23062
DonQuigleone
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What about the repeated visits by politicians to the Yasukuni shrine? I mean Tojo is included on that list. It's almost like if Angela Merkel visited a war memorial with Heinrich Himler's name on it.
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Old 2012-08-23, 16:00   Link #23063
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
What about the repeated visits by politicians to the Yasukuni shrine? I mean Tojo is included on that list. It's almost like if Angela Merkel visited a war memorial with Heinrich Himler's name on it.
But it's not to Tojo, but the whole IJA. It just happens to be that it's a collective grave.
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Old 2012-08-23, 16:46   Link #23064
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
But it's not to Tojo, but the whole IJA. It just happens to be that it's a collective grave.
A collective grave sullied by the presence of Tojo (among others). I'd expect Germany also has memorials to it's wardead, but they don't include Goering, Himmler, Goebels or Hitler, do they? I see nothing wrong with memorialising soldiers, but memorialising of leaders who permitted and even ordered the mass murder of millions of innocent people is abhorrent.

War criminals should never be memorialised under any circumstances, and if they are, the country's leader should not endorse it by paying their respects.

And Koizumi visited twice, you could imagine the first time being an honest mistake, but the second time...
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Old 2012-08-23, 16:51   Link #23065
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Blame the priests for including the Class A people.
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Old 2012-08-23, 16:55   Link #23066
Seitsuki
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History is written by the victors.

Or rather, "killing millions is ok as long as you win".

Convenient huh?
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Old 2012-08-23, 16:56   Link #23067
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Special Report: Philippines' black market is China's golden connection
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...87M02120120823
Quote:
Up to 90 percent of small-scale Philippine gold production is being smuggled out of the Southeast Asian country, according to estimates from officials and traders, much of it to China.
The potential revenue being lost is considerable: The Philippines, the world's 18th largest gold miner, produced just over 1 million troy ounces of gold in 2011, worth $1.6 billion at current prices. About 56 percent of that came from small-scale miners, data from the Bureau of Mines showed.
Australia fighter jets first to get hi-tech U.S. jammers
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...87M0A820120823
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Old 2012-08-23, 17:49   Link #23068
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Blame the priests for including the Class A people.
Sure, but then why didn't Koizumi go to a memorial that didn't include class A war criminals? By visiting he endorsed the revisionist views of the priests there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
History is written by the victors.

Or rather, "killing millions is ok as long as you win".

Convenient huh?
Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because one side did something wrong, doesn't make it okay that the other did too.
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Old 2012-08-23, 17:52   Link #23069
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Sure, but then why didn't Koizumi go to a memorial that didn't include class A war criminals? By visiting he endorsed the revisionist views of the priests there.
There are no other memorial for the same purpose.
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Old 2012-08-23, 18:00   Link #23070
Ithekro
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Perhaps there are people he knows included there. There are quite a lot of people.

I can't imagine someone not going to honor family or friends in a memorial even if there is a monster also interned there as well. I can imagine this sort of thing would come up in American history if we didn't normally bury everyone seperately and the mass graves tend to be unknowns.

I've gone to several Civil War battlefields and some cemeteries. My great-great grandfather was a "guest" of the Confederacy in Andersonville. I harbor no ill will towards them even if that was considered the worst prison camp in all the South.
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Old 2012-08-23, 18:30   Link #23071
Seitsuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because one side did something wrong, doesn't make it okay that the other did too.
Exactly. But only one side is expected to grovel and make amends. The other side simply "did what they had to do".
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Old 2012-08-23, 18:47   Link #23072
DonQuigleone
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If he felt so passionate up about it, he could have just commissioned another memorial for the purpose.

And I can't believe Yasukuni is the only memorial in Japan for War dead. In Britain (and Ireland) there's hundreds of memorials dotted around the place.

Hell, according to wikipedia, Japan has 4 tombs of the Unknown soldier, including this one, this one, This one and this one. There are any number of less controversial memorials he could have visited.

Instead, he visited the memorial that includes war criminals, and even contains exhibits "which gives the Japanese nationalist perspective that Japan was not at fault in the Nanking massacre in 1937 and that Japanese leaders were wrongly convicted at the Tokyo war crimes trials. The museum has an exhibit that portrays Japan as the key to the liberation of other Asian countries from the U.S. and European powers (Yasukuni Jinja 2003, 84)."

Other Choice quotes include things like ""Japan's dream of building a Great East Asia was necessitated by history and it was sought after by the countries of Asia"

EDIT: @Seitsuki I don't see the need for the Japanese to grovel, or make amends. But they should acknowledge the atrocities they committed in WW2, and not try to whitewash it. Likewise, the Americans shouldn't try to whitewash the fire-bombings etc. But what the Americans did or did not do has nothing to do with Japan and Yasukuni. Enshrining War criminals is wrong, end of story, and it is wrong to give legitimacy to such a place by visiting it. The Emperor does not do so, and the prime minister should not do so either. Either the war criminals should be de-enshrined, or a secular memorial should be built.

If the US president decided to honour the grave of Curtis LeMay, as a war hero, I might similarly object.
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Old 2012-08-23, 18:56   Link #23073
Ithekro
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Shinto works differently if I recall.

That shrine is for all Japanese War dead. Any that died in the service of the Emperor since 1867.
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Old 2012-08-23, 18:57   Link #23074
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Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
Exactly. But only one side is expected to grovel and make amends. The other side simply "did what they had to do".
i don't see Germany groveling and it seem to have patch things up quite well with its neighbors and Israel.
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Old 2012-08-23, 19:04   Link #23075
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Shinto works differently if I recall.

That shrine is for all Japanese War dead. Any that died in the service of the Emperor since 1867.
Change the rules, the war criminals were not truly "serving the emperor". The war criminals were only enshrined there in the 60s, a deliberate decision was made to enshrine the war criminals against the wishes of the emperor (who subsequently boycotted the shrine, as does his successor).

Also, a decent review of the revionism going on in their museum. They even have a paragraph describing Wang Jingwei as someone who "wanted peace with Japan".
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Old 2012-08-23, 19:09   Link #23076
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
What? Lots of Japanese people know about war crimes. They're just not as obsessed with grovelling about them at other peoples' feet about them the way the Germans do. The few rightist politicians who do harp about how Nanjing never happened or w/e are a fringe minority. On the other hand the Chinese are given the impression by their media that most Japanese think that way.
Never said anything about groveling, also, note that I specifically referenced the Japanese GOVERNMENT, not all the people of Japan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Also, how many people did the Japanese even kill? I'd bet that only a few, maybe ten millions were directly slaughtered by the Japanese soldiers
You know something is wrong when the deaths of millions are preceded by the word "only"

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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
and Mao Zedong is still revered as a great leader who made "mistakes."
Yea, because people aren't exactly jumping at the chance of becoming political prisoners you know?

I find it hilarious that you are defending Japan because communist China wasn't much better, I guess Stalin is golden in your book because Hitler was worse?

The plain fact is, Japan has tried evading taking responsibility whenever it can, with apologies that are about as sincere as the one you hear from customer service reps over the phone while they're flipping you off at their desk. It's just part of their culture, publicly admitting fault is hardly something that's the norm for them, where saving face is much more important.

Hell, they can't even stop themselves from going after something small as this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ld-War-II.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i don't see Germany groveling and it seem to have patch things up quite well with its neighbors and Israel.
Germany owned up to their mistakes and moved on, Japan on the other hand has not.
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Old 2012-08-23, 19:14   Link #23077
Seitsuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i don't see Germany groveling and it seem to have patch things up quite well with its neighbors and Israel.
How'd that happen? By heavy repatriations, constant apologies from the government, denounciation of the past. Both sides did a lot of shit in that war, some worse than others but all bad and not all the worst by one side, yet only one side has to be sorry and the other side can lionise themselves and their soldiers. Same shit. Widely different results. That's my point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Yea, because people aren't exactly jumping at the chance of becoming political prisoners you know?
I find this equally hilarious. "They have freedom of speech so they should apologise, meanwhile our restrictions makes us inculpable!"
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Old 2012-08-23, 19:18   Link #23078
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
How'd that happen? By heavy repatriations, constant apologies from the government, denounciation of the past. Both sides did a lot of shit in that war, some worse than others but all bad and not all the worst by one side, yet only one side has to be sorry and the other side can lionise themselves and their soldiers. Same shit. Widely different results. That's my point.
war sucks, total war like WW2 sucks even more.

That said, please point out the Allie's concentration camps and genocide campaigns.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
I find this equally hilarious. "They have freedom of speech so they should apologise, meanwhile our restrictions makes us inculpable!"
What's your point? I'm mere pointing out the obvious here. I'm certainly not pro-China, but that has nothing to do with the topic anyway, which is Japan's attitude.
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Old 2012-08-23, 19:21   Link #23079
Ithekro
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I think they just want to let it go and not be reminded about it every year by everyone around them. Most of those directly involved are died. There are fewer and fewer veterans every year. Will their every be a time when people stop trying to get them to apologies yet again for something done by a governement that hasn't existed since 1945?

We don't make the Germans apologies for the Nazi over and over again. They've pretty much banned everything about that governement in Germany.

Hardly anyone talks about Mussolini anymore.

Stalin was more of less purged after his death by the Soviet government. But no one expects the Russians to apologies to Eastern Europe for what they did during and after the war. Or if they do they aren't vocal about it in Western media.

The Japanese have their shames and their pride, just like everyone else. I'm sure their are probably several people in Arlington National Cemetery that would be called war criminals if they had been on the losing side of a war. Be it Indian Wars, or Vietnam. I'm fairly sure there are countries that want some of our people on the War Crimes lists.
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Old 2012-08-23, 19:38   Link #23080
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I think they just want to let it go and not be reminded about it every year by everyone around them. Most of those directly involved are died. There are fewer and fewer veterans every year. Will their every be a time when people stop trying to get them to apologies yet again for something done by a governement that hasn't existed since 1945?
Of course, but the problem over there is that the occupied Asian countries feels that Japan has never sincerely apologized for its role in WW2 (and before, as Japan began its expansions well before WW2), and the little campaigns of denials or outbursts from fringe(or prominent) politicians every so often only serves to rekindle the fire. How do you think Israel would react if the prime minister of Germany visits a church that honors the Nazis?

Basically, Japan has had a horrible PR campaign post-ww2, they're the Progessive Insurance at owning up and offering apologies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The Japanese have their shames and their pride, just like everyone else. I'm sure their are probably several people in Arlington National Cemetery that would be called war criminals if they had been on the losing side of a war. Be it Indian Wars, or Vietnam. I'm fairly sure there are countries that want some of our people on the War Crimes lists.
Agreed, but the relative recent era and the sheer scale of Japan's action makes it a rather special case, especially for the countries that were directly involved.
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