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Old 2012-08-23, 19:52   Link #23081
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i don't see Germany groveling and it seem to have patch things up quite well with its neighbors and Israel.
Indeed postwar Germany set up a reparations fund for Israeli victims of Nazi war crimes and has paid out over 25 billion euros. Germany and Israel also have especially close diplomatic relations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany...rael_relations

What reparations, if any, did Japan pay to China, Korea, and the other states it occupied during the War?
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Old 2012-08-23, 19:54   Link #23082
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I think they just want to let it go and not be reminded about it every year by everyone around them. Most of those directly involved are died. There are fewer and fewer veterans every year. Will their every be a time when people stop trying to get them to apologies yet again for something done by a governement that hasn't existed since 1945?

We don't make the Germans apologies for the Nazi over and over again. They've pretty much banned everything about that governement in Germany.
Certainly. But on the flipside, it's simply wrong to commemorate people like Tojo and his ilk in a war memorial. Commemorate the rest of the soldiers, sure, but leave out the warcriminals.

If no war criminals were included in the memorial, people wouldn't be talking about this. I mean, the things these guys did was completely abhorrent. Read about the Nanking Massacre, and then ask yourself if it's right that the commanders who perpetrated that are now enshrined in their countries national memorial.
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Old 2012-08-23, 20:04   Link #23083
Ithekro
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What is probably the most unfortunate thing about that is that Japan never got a keyword type name for its government or party that ran the goverenment that is the focus of all the war crimes and other things associated with the War. Germany got the Nazis. The Country can be seperated from the political party and its leadership when it comes to calming blame, reperations and all sorts of things.

Japan is and was Japan. They never did get something like an internationly accepted scapegoat to pawn their abuses off on, or however that should be worded to be or polite. Today Germany is Germany. Nazis are Nazis. The two do not always equal each other and thus Germany doesn't have a swastika shaped bird hanging around their neck like an albatros. The Land of the Rising Sun remains what it was and yet is totally different due to their new Constitution (the Allies handwork).

On the other hand...Japan also got one last "honor" in that war that so far it maintains. It is the only country to have every been the subject of an atomic attack. And they as well as most other nations hope to keep it that way.


As for the shrine. The priests refuse to remove the war criminals, saying that it is impossible. You can't force a religion to do something against itself and make it stick. You can't realisticallty expect the other 2 million soldiers to move their souls or however it works just so someone else will be comfortable because Togo is also with them? Nor their families to reject the place entirely because of something done by the priests in 1978, long after the war ended. The Emperor stopped going there in protest, but not everyone must do so unless of course the Emporer ordered them not to go (an order that was never given).

If I understand it correctly, even if the Japanese wanted to have a different place, they religiously could not if those souls cannot be moved (I don't mean the war criminals...I mean the rest of them). Thus, because of the priests...Japan just deals with it. That other countries make it a huge deal is quite honestly, their problem, not Japan's.
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Old 2012-08-23, 20:51   Link #23084
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
If I understand it correctly, even if the Japanese wanted to have a different place, they religiously could not if those souls cannot be moved (I don't mean the war criminals...I mean the rest of them). Thus, because of the priests...Japan just deals with it. That other countries make it a huge deal is quite honestly, their problem, not Japan's.
The sticking point isn't even so much that the shrine is there, but rather that it's the destination of official visits by prominent Japanese officials and politicians. You can keep talking about the religious talking points forever if you want, realistically it's an argument that carries little weight when it comes to international relations.

Like I said, do that same thing in Germany, have a shrine setup to honor ALL of WW2 Germany, including Hitler and Co. and see if anyone gives 2 shits if it was setup because of religious reasons, esp. if the PM of Germany pays visits to said shrine.
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Old 2012-08-23, 20:58   Link #23085
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The rest of them deserve their honors though. The rest can be accepted or ignored by whomeveer is there.

I can recount a story of one Julius Henry Marx, a American Jew who went to Berlin following World War II. He made a trip to the location of the Nazi High Command Bunker. It was still under rubble at the time I believe. He didn't do much...just the Charleston on top of it.

But then, what would one expect from "Groucho" Marx.
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Old 2012-08-23, 21:04   Link #23086
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
You know something is wrong when the deaths of millions are preceded by the word "only"
Don't take what people say out of context. I used "only" to precede my explanation of how the crimes of the CCP massively dwarfs those of the Japanese.

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Yea, because people aren't exactly jumping at the chance of becoming political prisoners you know?
See the problem here? It'd be like Germans complaining about Soviet raping and looting if by some divine intervention the Nazis managed to stay in control of Germany after the war. Of course nobody in Germany would complain about the Holocaust, or the Gestapo would be after them, even though it was the crimes of the Germans (or at least a German party) themselves, which, IMO from a moral standpoint it is much more imperative to correct.

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I find it hilarious that you are defending Japan because communist China wasn't much better, I guess Stalin is golden in your book because Hitler was worse?
Am I defending Japan? I'm Chinese and am mostly trying to pick apart the contemporary Chinese mentality, which I think is inane.

Quote:
The plain fact is, Japan has tried evading taking responsibility whenever it can, with apologies that are about as sincere as the one you hear from customer service reps over the phone while they're flipping you off at their desk. It's just part of their culture, publicly admitting fault is hardly something that's the norm for them, where saving face is much more important.
Sure, then they should apologize some more, and more sincerely so. But Chinese shouldn't riot about it, that'll just make them less willing to apologize. Fix your own mistake first. The Chinese Hitler is still honored at the gate on Tiananmen and his body preserved in the capital.

Quote:
Hell, they can't even stop themselves from going after something small as this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ld-War-II.html
From article:
Quote:
The Japanese counsel general's office refuted the idea that the Japanese government would offer a reward for the removal of the monument, but said the talks about comfort women were 'quite complicated.'
So... does the Japanese government actively refute the war crimes charges or not? It does apologize for them, if not "sincerely", so there must be some acceptance that they happened. But about Unit 731, Nanjing, or comfort women, do they have a unified policy of denial or is it just a politicized mess where nobody can agree to anything?

Quote:
Germany owned up to their mistakes and moved on, Japan on the other hand has not.
This is true. I think the Germans apologize a bit too much TBH, they attract so much attention to the fact they were Nazis, it's as if they want people to associate Germany with Nazis for the rest of history.

I still think Chinese should deal with the massive damage their own government and party that is still in power did to them before picking on the peaceful, democratic successor state of the nation that committed crimes in WW2. This is particularly true when you compare the magnitude of the crimes at hand.

PS: I know why the Chinese complain about the Japanese and not their own problems, of course, but I'm speaking from an idealistic viewpoint.
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Old 2012-08-23, 21:12   Link #23087
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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Indeed postwar Germany set up a reparations fund for Israeli victims of Nazi war crimes and has paid out over 25 billion euros. Germany and Israel also have especially close diplomatic relations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany...rael_relations

What reparations, if any, did Japan pay to China, Korea, and the other states it occupied during the War?
http://www.jiyuushikan.org/e/reparations.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Peace_with_Japan


Japan has paid hundreds of billions, especially to Korea, over the course of fifty years.
In addition, in 1965 Japan paid Korea 800 million dollars (yes, as in US dollars) which was more than double the national income of Korea at the time.
Korean government has never informed their public of these though, and keep asking for more.

China asked 50 trillion back in 2000, but unofficially. It was demanded by PRC officers individually, and not an official nation to nation negotiation.
That went ignored, of course. Neither nation publicized the incident, but it's on the official records.
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Old 2012-08-23, 21:16   Link #23088
DonQuigleone
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@LeoXiao: I agree that the CCP is probably just using it as deflection tactics to try to rouse up nationalist fervour. But Japan really shouldn't be giving them such easy opportunities.

But when Taiwan or Korea objects, I don't think there's nearly as many ulterior motives going on. That said, Korea does sometimes indulge a bit too much in petty nationalism, in a manner similar to Ireland with the UK. On the flipside, you don't ever get the British government ever denying their responsibility for the Irish famine, whereas you do get elements of the Japanese government denying the whole comfort women thing...
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Old 2012-08-23, 21:17   Link #23089
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
What reparations, if any, did Japan pay to China, Korea, and the other states it occupied during the War?
Massive, actually.

But they called it Official Development Assistance, ODA.

For China's case, Japan's ODA program started (I think) after the Nixon thaw, negotiated between then Premier Zhou Enlai and the Japanese leaders who themselves were rather bewildered at the new rapprochement. Nobody wanted to call it reparations; the Chinese didn't want to publicize it, the Japanese had that pesky honor thing to worry about, there's the Taiwan issue, which Japan had relatively friendly relations with, etc.

Made perfect sense, everybody went home content, China got a huge influx of reparations over the years, Japan successfully realigned to the new geopolitical reality (at the cost of diplomatic relationship with Taiwan) -- the ODA maybe continuing even now, I'm not sure of the latest status (it was still ongoing in 2011), though ever since Koizumi's era Japan had been wondering rather publicly why it was still paying "assistance" to a rising world power.

Problem is, the new generation of Chinese grew up wondering where the reparations are, because there are no official reparations, and the Chinese government wasn't about to say to their own people, hey, that ODA thing they sent us is reparations in all but name, ja.

Of course, the ODA program included many more partners than previous war victims, so it's partly the Japanese's fault to dilute the focus. ODA to Africa has a very different political purpose compared to ODA to China.

In fact, a very large part of the reason this is an ongoing issue is because Japan officially sucks terribad at PR. Various Japanese Prime Ministers have apologized, repeatedly and over various highly symbolic occasions, reparations were paid -- as ODA -- and almost all Japanese history textbooks most certainly taught about the Nanjing massacre among other atrocities. The "news" about those historical revisionist textbooks is far worse than someone from Europe assuming Americans don't know shit about evolution because of a fucked up conservative Texan school district or two. Yes, they exist, and no, 99.5% of Japanese high school students don't use them.

Yet all that effort is easily sidelined when Japan *always* have a bunch of extremist nationalist politicians who just have to stir the pot with inane comments and provocative shrine visits. I think I could make a pretty good argument that the failure of the Tokyo trials in comparison to the Nuremburg trials in purging the Japanese old guard had done, long term, devastating damage to Japan's ability to "move on" diplomatically, not the least because a German-style precedent (where being even slightly sympathetic to the Third Reich is literally a crime, not to mention a socio-political suicide) failed to establish itself. Had there been such a taboo, the sense that total rejection of the militarist legacy was the dominant norm, the nationalist idiots might have been shut up and neighboring governments wouldn't have so many easy rile-up targets to use whenever they feel like pressuring Japan on this and that.
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Old 2012-08-23, 21:36   Link #23090
kyp275
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Am I defending Japan? I'm Chinese and am mostly trying to pick apart the contemporary Chinese mentality, which I think is inane.
agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Sure, then they should apologize some more, and more sincerely so. But Chinese shouldn't riot about it, that'll just make them less willing to apologize. Fix your own mistake first. The Chinese Hitler is still honored at the gate on Tiananmen and his body preserved in the capital.
This is where me and you differ, I don't think there should be a "pecking order" when it comes to stuff like this, just because there are worst or other on-going problems doesn't mean others should get put on the sideline or get a free pass. Also, I didn't say I agree with the Chinese rioting, I was merely explaining their reason for doing so.

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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
So... does the Japanese government actively refute the war crimes charges or not? It does apologize for them, if not "sincerely", so there must be some acceptance that they happened. But about Unit 731, Nanjing, or comfort women, do they have a unified policy of denial or is it just a politicized mess where nobody can agree to anything?
It's more like they actively pursue the policy of let's-not-talk-about-it and hush things up or sweep it under the rug whenever it can as opposed to outright denial, except for the extreme fringes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
In fact, a very large part of the reason this is an ongoing issue is because Japan officially sucks terribad at PR. Various Japanese Prime Ministers have apologized, repeatedly and over various highly symbolic occasions, reparations were paid -- as ODA -- and almost all Japanese history textbooks most certainly taught about the Nanjing massacre among other atrocities. The "news" about those historical revisionist textbooks is far worse than someone from Europe assuming Americans don't know shit about evolution because of a fucked up conservative Texan school district or two. Yes, they exist, and no, 99.5% of Japanese high school students don't use them.

Yet all that effort is easily sidelined when Japan *always* have a bunch of extremist nationalist politicians who just have to stir the pot with inane comments and provocative shrine visits. I think I could make a pretty good argument that the failure of the Tokyo trials in comparison to the Nuremburg trials in purging the Japanese old guard had done, long term, devastating damage to Japan's ability to "move on" diplomatically, not the least because a German-style precedent (where being even slightly sympathetic to the Third Reich is literally a crime, not to mention a socio-political suicide) failed to establish itself. Had there been such a taboo, the sense that total rejection of the militarist legacy was the dominant norm, the nationalist idiots might have been shut up and neighboring governments wouldn't have so many easy rile-up targets to use whenever they feel like pressuring Japan on this and that.
Couldn't have said it better myself
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Old 2012-08-23, 22:09   Link #23091
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I didn't think that my question would raise such debate. However, I think everything has been exposed here since (Thanks, Irenicus).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I think they just want to let it go and not be reminded about it every year by everyone around them. Most of those directly involved are died. There are fewer and fewer veterans every year. Will their every be a time when people stop trying to get them to apologies yet again for something done by a governement that hasn't existed since 1945?

We don't make the Germans apologies for the Nazi over and over again. They've pretty much banned everything about that governement in Germany.

Hardly anyone talks about Mussolini anymore.

Stalin was more of less purged after his death by the Soviet government. But no one expects the Russians to apologies to Eastern Europe for what they did during and after the war. Or if they do they aren't vocal about it in Western media.

The Japanese have their shames and their pride, just like everyone else. I'm sure their are probably several people in Arlington National Cemetery that would be called war criminals if they had been on the losing side of a war. Be it Indian Wars, or Vietnam. I'm fairly sure there are countries that want some of our people on the War Crimes lists.
In bold is the most important thing here: why can't the Chinese let go already? Bad PR or not from Japan, there comes a time when you have to let it go because it's useless to dwell so much into the past especially after almost 70 years when almost everyone from that time is dead or dying.

From what I can hear in Vietnam (I have Vietnamese blood BTW), there's not much animosity today towards the Americans despite all the shit that went on over there. We can surely list a number of bad things that were done during that time, but I have never heard something from today's Vietnamese generation which would create tensions with Americans. People have chosen to move on and it was for the best.

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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Problem is, the new generation of Chinese grew up wondering where the reparations are, because there are no official reparations, and the Chinese government wasn't about to say to their own people, hey, that ODA thing they sent us is reparations in all but name, ja.
Blame the people from higher spheres in Beijing then. They took the money into their own pockets for far too long.

About extremist nationalist politicians, there are everywhere. But who's to say that people should take them seriously? Jean-Marie and Marine Le Pen in France are quite radical, but people would never be foolish enough to let him become president. Austria had Jörg Haider, but he was never to be elected anyway. Why so serious?

Anyway, it's something else that bugs me and it's more about human reaction. Everytime I see the Chinese people who keep on dwelling about the past while doing those anti-Japanese demonstrations/riots, I'm quite disappointed at the lack of response from the Japanese people. Without going into that nationalist crap, I really want to see Japanese showing pride and indicating they can play this game in front of PRC's interests in Japan too. If people in another country started going apeshit against Canada tomorrow, I'd be pissed off to the point of expecting a response from our people with protests against that country too. It's one thing to recognize mistakes of the past, but it's another to stay there without replying something equivalent to "F*** y'all! You have gone too far and we have enough of your attitude towards us."

Sorry for the language, but I just can't conceive the idea that people from an entire nation would not respond after taking so many insults over the years.
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Old 2012-08-23, 22:51   Link #23092
Ithekro
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Meanwhile, in the 21st century, Japan is rearming to some extent because of China. While the Japanese Constitution make it quite clear that they cannot have a military force for offensive actions, they have and are building vessels that are roughly equivalent tonnage to World War II era Japanese carriers. These of course are called helicopter_destroyer and are purposed with defending the nation against submarines...but honestly the newer ones under construction now are basically aircraft carriers or assualt ships in anyone else's navy.

And since it have been nearly 70 years since the last Japanese carrier was disposed of by the Allies and that China has been rather agressive of late, I'd say keep them. An ally that can actively defend itself it worth more than one that can't if things ever do go badly in that region of the world, and yet don't go nuclear.

I'll be worried about Japan if they start building Arsenal Ships or Space Battlehips and call them Yamato in honor of their homeland.
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Old 2012-08-23, 23:07   Link #23093
kyp275
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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
In bold is the most important thing here: why can't the Chinese let go already? Bad PR or not from Japan, there comes a time when you have to let it go because it's useless to dwell so much into the past especially after almost 70 years when almost everyone from that time is dead or dying.
It's not just the Chinese, and the fact that so many of the victims are dead of dying actually drives the anger even more, as some takes it that it's gotten to this point after so long yet Japan continues to be evasive.

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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
From what I can hear in Vietnam (I have Vietnamese blood BTW), there's not much animosity today towards the Americans despite all the shit that went on over there. We can surely list a number of bad things that were done during that time, but I have never heard something from today's Vietnamese generation which would create tensions with Americans. People have chosen to move on and it was for the best.
No offense, but what went on in Vietnam pales in comparison with what Japan did in Korea and China.

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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
About extremist nationalist politicians, there are everywhere. But who's to say that people should take them seriously? Jean-Marie and Marine Le Pen in France are quite radical, but people would never be foolish enough to let him become president. Austria had Jörg Haider, but he was never to be elected anyway. Why so serious?
radical politicians are indeed everywhere, and unfortunately some people do take them seriously, and frankly they're easy fodders for the opposition. Also, it doesn't help Japan that some of the controversial visits and remarks were not only made by "fringe" politicians, but rather major prominent ones, including the Prime Minister.

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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Anyway, it's something else that bugs me and it's more about human reaction. Everytime I see the Chinese people who keep on dwelling about the past while doing those anti-Japanese demonstrations/riots, I'm quite disappointed at the lack of response from the Japanese people. Without going into that nationalist crap, I really want to see Japanese showing pride and indicating they can play this game in front of PRC's interests in Japan too. If people in another country started going apeshit against Canada tomorrow, I'd be pissed off to the point of expecting a response from our people with protests against that country too. It's one thing to recognize mistakes of the past, but it's another to stay there without replying something equivalent to "F*** y'all! You have gone too far and we have enough of your attitude towards us."

Sorry for the language, but I just can't conceive the idea that people from an entire nation would not respond after taking so many insults over the years.
What are they gonna do? Yell back "Stop talking about these stuff that we don't want to talk about" and put even more spotlight on the issue, which is exactly what Japan wants to avoid? the whole WW2 business isn't exactly a bright spot in Japanese history...
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Old 2012-08-23, 23:48   Link #23094
Irenicus
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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Blame the people from higher spheres in Beijing then. They took the money into their own pockets for far too long.
None of their business. Japan isn't their country, it's got to do its own PR.

What were you expecting; justice, fairness, in high-stakes geopolitics...?

Quote:
About extremist nationalist politicians, there are everywhere. But who's to say that people should take them seriously? Jean-Marie and Marine Le Pen in France are quite radical, but people would never be foolish enough to let him become president. Austria had Jörg Haider, but he was never to be elected anyway. Why so serious?
Except in Japan, they share power. The previous party that's been in power for much of Japan's postwar history, the LDP, had a sizable faction of what can be roughly called the "nationalist" group. They shared the party with the larger, mainstream "market economy/technocratic" groups, enough to have cabinet level positions. DPJ doesn't quite have the same level of "umbrella" dominance, but the nationalist groups are still present.

The famous PM Koizumi is actually from one of the nationalist factions of LDP, though he made his mark inside Japan mostly by playing the anti-party establishment maverick to "shake up" the existing order, rather than the internationally troubled shrine visits.

Maybe a random Diet member being an idiot doesn't hurt too much (let us not speak of the level of criminal idiocy present in the right honorable United States Congress), but a cabinet member is going to make the news. Unfortunately, the Japanese system is, shall we say, unsuited to providing the best talent at the cabinet level.

Of course, the problem is, other countries want those news. The more that happens, the more nationalism gets riled up in their own countries, giving a boost to their regimes, and the more pressure gets put on Japan's diplomatic corps to compromise.

Quote:
Sorry for the language, but I just can't conceive the idea that people from an entire nation would not respond after taking so many insults over the years.
Aohige pointed it out: Japanese are very apolitical. Yeah, they see it on the news, but going down to the streets...for what? Mess up Chinese food imports in combinis? If they're going to do mass protests, they have much bigger fish to fry. Fukushima, for instance. Or the stagnating economy (two decades and counting). Or reforming the various ills in their own system of government.

The sort of activist politics seen in the West is the purview of the "passionate" few in Japan; the recent incident occurred because a Japanese nationalist group sponsored the "trip," remember.

Finally, Japanese businesses are deeply involved in the Chinese market. They don't want provocation and escalation. For all the tension in the news and the political showdown over the islands, trade and investment in East Asia is growing to record highs every year.
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Old 2012-08-23, 23:58   Link #23095
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i think the issue regarding Japanese apologies is that there are no symbolic acts to back it up. Using Germany as example again, after ww2, Germany purge the government of members of the Nazi party, outlaw the nazi party and put warrants for the arrest of the previous leaders of the nazi party as well as scores of mid and low members who were involve in the atrocities.

Japan never had this kind of purge. A few of the higher ups like tojo was scape goat. But that was it, no purge, no arrest warrants, everything was business as normal. For example members of Unit-731 was allow to return to society with absolutely no repercussions. you can blame the US for the fact that they not punish but Japan could have stood up and said what they did was wrong and has no place in civilize society and kick them out of the country.
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Old 2012-08-23, 23:59   Link #23096
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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Sorry for the language, but I just can't conceive the idea that people from an entire nation would not respond after taking so many insults over the years.
They read this on the news, mutter, complain, or laugh, then go about their day.
Sure it dwells on people mind and ruins image of the said party/people/region, but that doesn't directly connect with protests or riots in Japanese culture.

Only riots I recall in Japan were during the politically instable era right after post-war, as well as rising of communist terrorism of the Red Army. Those crazies actually worked negatively for their own cause, making the entire population to see large scale protests and riots as "shameful". That's lingered long after the Red Army was taken down (at least inside Japan. Some of those RA people went activists overseas, spreading violence and hate)

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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
It's not just the Chinese, and the fact that so many of the victims are dead of dying actually drives the anger even more, as some takes it that it's gotten to this point after so long yet Japan continues to be evasive.
In all honesty, the loud ones will not settle for anything less than death of all Japanese. Hell they even demanded it over and over.
Their government asked instead for billions of money, which were paid, but never reflected on their own people.
I don't think there's anything you can do to satisfy bloodlust.

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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Except in Japan, they share power. The previous party that's been in power for much of Japan's postwar history, the LDP, had a sizable faction of what can be roughly called the "nationalist" group. They shared the party with the larger, mainstream "market economy/technocratic" groups, enough to have cabinet level positions. DPJ doesn't quite have the same level of "umbrella" dominance, but the nationalist groups are still present.
There's been somewhat of a divide amongst Jimintou (LDP) for a long time, between the nationalists and regular right wing.
Many of the prominent nationalists recently have been making move to make their own party instead, since their rather far-right values were conflicting with moderate right wings.
As for DPJ... they're in general left wing, but the biggest problem with them is the sheer incompetency in doing... well, anything.
Also they tend to put personal gains above national interest, and hasn't been working out well at all.
Even with all the critics American Democrats get, they are still far better than DPJ in running the country.

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Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
i think the issue regarding Japanese apologies is that there are no symbolic acts to back it up. Using Germany as example again, after ww2, Germany purge the government of members of the Nazi party, outlaw the nazi party and put warrants for the arrest of the previous leaders of the nazi party as well as scores of mid and low members who were involve in the atrocities.

Japan never had this kind of purge. A few of the higher ups like tojo was scape goat. But that was it, no purge, no arrest warrants, everything was business as normal. For example members of Unit-731 was allow to return to society with absolutely no repercussions. you can blame the US for the fact that they not punish but Japan could have stood up and said what they did was wrong and has no place in civilize society and kick them out of the country.
What are you talking about?
Japan was under the control of military, instead of a political party at the time.
There were no "Nazi party" to disband, just the military leaders who were in charge of the nation.
The dissassembly of Japanese Navy and Army was exactly the equivalent of dismantling of Nazi party.
In other words, IJA WAS the Nazi of Japan.

And "US didn't punish Japan"?? Oh come on, you can't be serious.
McArthur disbanded the very force that was in control of Japan, and even went as far as forcing laws to disassemble large corporations of Japan, in hopes of crippling them finacially. Until Japanese economy got back on their feet, this caused enormous amount of misery and poverty. Stripped of right to arm, and banned corporate conglomarates, US made sure Japan became a puppet-nation of America, and serve as their outpost in East Asia. Don't give me this US never punished Japan BS. That's some anti-Japanese propaganda from you-know-who.

I don't disagree with less sincerity and lack of symbolic apologies, but I'm going to have to disagree with the rest.

I think Irenicus pretty much accurately wrapped everything up though, I don't think there's really any debate left.
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Old 2012-08-24, 01:01   Link #23097
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
They read this on the news, mutter, complain, or laugh, then go about their day.
Sure it dwells on people mind and ruins image of the said party/people/region, but that doesn't directly connect with protests or riots in Japanese culture.
I guess that means Japanese people are even more phlegmatic than the British (for whom this attribute is legendary).


Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
There's been somewhat of a divide amongst Jimintou (LDP) for a long time, between the nationalists and regular right wing.
Many of the prominent nationalists recently have been making move to make their own party instead, since their rather far-right values were conflicting with moderate right wings.
As for DPJ... they're in general left wing, but the biggest problem with them is the sheer incompetency in doing... well, anything.
Also they tend to put personal gains above national interest, and hasn't been working out well at all.
Even with all the critics American Democrats get, they are still far better than DPJ in running the country.
That sure reminds me of the extremist Tea Party vs. moderate members of the Republican Party. Also, it's a shame that the DPJ is not doing any better. Political cynicism must be quite heavy over there, hence why Irenicus talked about being apolitical.


Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
What are you talking about?
Japan was under the control of military, instead of a political party at the time.
There were no "Nazi party" to disband, just the military leaders who were in charge of the nation.
The dissassembly of Japanese Navy and Army was exactly the equivalent of dismantling of Nazi party.
In other words, IJA WAS the Nazi of Japan.

And "US didn't punish Japan"????
McArthur disbanded the very force that was in control of Japan, and even went as far as forcing laws to disassemble large corporations of Japan, in hopes of crippling them finacially. Until Japanese economy got back on their feet, this caused enormous amount of misery and poverty. Stripped of right to arm, and banned corporate conglomarates, US made sure Japan became a puppet-nation of America, and serve as their outpost in East Asia. Don't give me this US never punished Japan BS. That's some anti-Japanese propaganda from you-know-who.

I don't disagree with less sincerity and lack of symbolic apologies, but that's the only part I agree with this post.
This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
None of their business. Japan isn't their country, it's got to do its own PR.

What were you expecting; justice, fairness, in high-stakes geopolitics...?
Nope! I enjoy taking the piss at the PRC going wild against others when the stinking part still sits within their borders.
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Old 2012-08-24, 01:09   Link #23098
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
That sure reminds me of the extremist Tea Party vs. moderate members of the Republican Party. Also, it's a shame that the DPJ is not doing any better. Political cynicism must be quite heavy over there, hence why Irenicus talked about being apolitical.
That observation is quite accurate.

It's rather, majority of Japanese gave up on government to actually have an impact, and have this attitude of "it doesn't matter nothing is going to change". There are vocal minorities active everywhere, pointing fingers at either side of the parties, just like in US. But the difference is, the energy and drive to actually do something about it is extremely lacking among the public as a whole.

So yes, they are pessimisstic about policits in general.

EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot to mention one thing... yes, it feels like Tea Party of Japan.
And the leader of this nationalist party? Our lovely gov. Ishihara. Of course.
Yes, same Ishihara that's a sworn enemy of otaku everywhere.
His is not the only new conservative parties around, but one of the mass-media visible one.
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Old 2012-08-24, 01:39   Link #23099
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
That observation is quite accurate.

It's rather, majority of Japanese gave up on government to actually have an impact, and have this attitude of "it doesn't matter nothing is going to change". There are vocal minorities active everywhere, pointing fingers at either side of the parties, just like in US. But the difference is, the energy and drive to actually do something about it is extremely lacking among the public as a whole.
Really, there's no one among the younger Japanese politicians who'd be a serious contender at becoming the Prime Minister and who can rally people to begin some political revolution? Someone more energetic?

Each country usually comes up with such character once in a while; the USA had JFK, the UK had Tony Blair, Canada had Pierre Elliot Trudeau (whose son, Justin, is a good prospect for the future). Japan are due to have a new champion emerging from the masses, I hope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot to mention one thing... yes, it feels like Tea Party of Japan.
And the leader of this nationalist party? Our lovely gov. Ishihara. Of course.
Yes, same Ishihara that's a sworn enemy of otaku everywhere.
His is not the only new conservative parties around, but one of the mass-media visible one.


Japan's version of Jean-Marie Le Pen, heh?
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Old 2012-08-24, 01:49   Link #23100
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Prime Minister of Japan seems like a revolving door position. They don't stick around for long usually.
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