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Old 2012-09-15, 23:20   Link #23661
Sumeragi
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Old 2012-09-15, 23:21   Link #23662
Urzu 7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The Old Testament is even more extreme in that sense.
No doubt the Old Testament has some pretty harsh stuff in it, but when just focusing on how things are in these modern times (going back many decades leading up to today), well, nowadays, you just don't find Jews and Christians abiding to the harsh things found in the Old Testament.

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Originally Posted by willx View Post
Let's not fool ourselves here, there continue to be crimes committed in the name of gods of all stripes, Islamic or not. There are still religious, racist and other hate crimes committed daily in the U.S.
In my post you quoted, I said that Judaism and Christianity have progressed very much, but I wasn't saying they are now perfect or that violent crimes are no longer committed by Jews and Christians in the name of God. You have some terrorism from Christians sometimes (the terrorist who did the massacre in Norway, any Christians who kill abortion clinic workers). Christianity has gotten much better since medival times, though. A lot of Christians abide to peace and nonviolence. Perhaps the biggest problem is from religious politicians who see fighting terrorist organizations as not just an effort to subdue dangerous individuals, but also a kind of holy war. Jews protecting themselves is also more than them protecting themselves, they believe they are fighting in the name of God. This has more to do with warfare than crimes, though. Israel fires missiles towards enemies that target their people. America fought in Iraq and is still fighting in Afghanistan, but they haven't been fighting people for being 'nonbelievers', they are fighting militant Muslims. Now of course, and unfortunately, there is 'collateral damage' in all of this (to just label it as collateral damage has to make something so painful and maddening all the worse), but the militant Muslims want to do all that they can to target and kill any nonbelievers and so called infidels that they can manage to target.
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Old 2012-09-15, 23:27   Link #23663
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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
No doubt the Old Testament has some pretty harsh stuff in it, but when just focusing on how things are in these modern times (going back many decades leading up to today), well, nowadays, you just don't find Jews and Christians abiding to the harsh things found in the Old Testament.
Only in the past century after the fall of colonial imperialism, and even then we still have Ultraorthodox Judaism and pockets of militant Christians. Also, I would think the over six century age difference between Christianity and Islam, combined with the relatively recent oppression by Christian countries of Muslim regions and the fall of a central Islamic authority only add to the extremism.

Frankly, arguments using the Koran are red herrings at best. Under the Ottoman the Koran was not used as justification for violence solely based on religion, nor did we have the same kind of massacres done by the crusaders against conquered Palestine being committed by Islamic forces when they retook the land. Today's radical Islam is mostly a social construct due to historical events, combined with radical extremism.
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Old 2012-09-15, 23:30   Link #23664
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@Urzu 7 --

I apologize beforehand, but I'm finally getting a bit worked up about this! I do hope you know what you're saying are gross generalizations right? Look back, why is Afghanistan so F'd up? Why was the Taliban in power in the first place? Watch the movie, Charlie Wilson's War? Read about Cold War-style proxy wars? Why was there a war in Iraq? Who put Saddam into power? Mubarak? Gaddafi? How many of these guys were "secular" tyrants? Look even further back? Social injustices? Resource wars? People looking the other way due to oil?

I'm going to also refer back to what I wrote previously: Who do you think of as your enemies? How would you deal with them? What does that say about you (and us) ?
(http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...37#post4351837)

Regardless of religion, people who are poor, impoverished and feel oppressed (both rightly and wrongly) will be brainwashed to fight those whom they believe to be their enemies. Are they right? Are we their enemies? The answer to these questions are murky and cannot and should not be reduced to "Religion -> Islam"

EDIT: Sumeragi beat me to it, but put it succinctly, you cannot say "Militant Islam" is a problem without assessing the historical events that caused it. Which is what I was alluding to above.
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Old 2012-09-16, 00:00   Link #23665
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Considering how fast the Japanese run thought PMs, that doesn't particularly bother me. If we were talking about the Emperor, than I might hold issue over it. That the shrine is for all Japanese military that died in service of the Emperor, even those that are on the A-List for War Crimes fit that description. That the Emperor won't go, is telling enough for me. What the PM of the Month does is his business since they have so many I don't attribute them as "the Face of Japan" like I could with say the President of the United States.
They might not be the face of Japan but the prime minsters are still some degree a representation of Japanese and its nation. They fully know what they are doing is going to anger other Asians, and still showing that they do not fully understand the harm they caused during World War II. These politicans are still clinging to the old Japan, which for me is a dangerous sign.
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
If Western religions worked that way, I'm fairly certain there would be Nazi Party members enshrined in some temple to those that died for Germany (a temple for Hitler as Supreme Leader would likely have been torn down following the war and never rebuilt, and the Kaiser's been gone for a long time now). It would hold some Party members, as well as the average soldiers that fought and died for Germany since maybe as far back as the Franco-Prussian War. While I guess it wouldn't hold those that died later on (men like Adolf Galland for example), it would hold honorable men as well as the vile ones who died in service to Germany.
I really doubt this, the post war situation between Japan and Germany were so much different. Japan was allowed to keep the emperor while Germany everything changed. I mean fact that the Japanese still uses the imperial flag says it all.

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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
I study history. Badly presented history or outright lies can be annoying...but a shrine is a religious thing. It doesn't bother me even if their museum is slanted a lot...those other men deserve to be honored for what they did and lost, even it is was under the orders of those other men on the A-list that are also enshrined there. I see it as the junior officers and enlisted men are with their criminal officers and giving them what-for every night for getting them killed. Justice works itself out in that realm.
Sure the shrine is the religious thing, but if you are thinking that is all the shrine represent then I think that is wrong. The shrine is still tied to the Japanese Empire. Also the shrine just doesn't hold Japanese soldiers, it holds Koreans and other Asians that were forced to serve in the war. By going there you are not honoring them, but instead insulting them as well. Then there is whole Okinawan suicide controversy.
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Old 2012-09-16, 00:28   Link #23666
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Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
About the anti-Japan sentiment, I see it as a major inferiority complex they can't solve on their own especially when Japan owned China in almost any domain for so many centuries. Is there anyone else but China itself to blame for being shit and living in the dark ages for so long without evolving while other countries did not hesitate in putting themselves as the spearhead of true revolutions (peaceful ones BTW) for the real good of people.
Oh, go easy on the koolaid there will ya? "Japan owned China in almost any domain for so many centuries"??? which planet's history have you been reading? It's one thing to love Japan and hate China, but if you're starting to revise history, you need to get some help.

Like it or not, China for the most part has been one of the largest and most important cultural center of East Asia through most of its history, there's a reason why the Japanese uses Chinese characters in their language, and not the other way around.

It wasn't until the 1800s when the downfall of the Qing Dynasty begin with western imperialists forced their way in that China begin its latest serious decline. Japan in the mean time escaped much of that and was able to quickly industrialize itself, a process mind you was far from peaceful as you seem to be implying.

FFS, I greatly dislike China, but even I find the stuff you're throwing out here to be absolute lunacy.

Quote:
To be fully honest with everyone, I never had respect for China, I'm not about to have any respect now and I will never do so as long as this country keeps on taking that path with that typical immaturity. As a certain Jeremy Roenick once said: they can kiss my @$$.
No one cares if you respect China or not, but at least get your facts straight, else you're no better than those protesters.
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Old 2012-09-16, 00:31   Link #23667
Urzu 7
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Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
Well, that is rather unfair.

First you are quite wrong about Japan. The Japanese nationalists certainly played their part in stirring things up with talks of purchasing the islands. Japan never truly walked out of nationalism and glorification of WWII war crimes, unlike, say, Germany. Japanese PMs still occasionally visit the Yasukuni Shrine, despite protests from many Asia Pacific countries. There were talks of Japanese textbooks whitening the WWII crimes some years ago, but I don't know what came to that. While Europeans have no fear of Nazi coming back, and while most of the Japanese are not the right-wing nationalists, the ghost of Japanese Militarism still lingered. I don't think the Chinese are being unreasonably wary.
Maybe the statement I made of "a complete 180 degree turnaround" isn't completely accurate, but I do think Japan has progressed very, very much since the mid 1940s. I know they aren't perfect and you pointed out some examples, but I think what you brought up are on the mild side (I'm excluding the thing about Japanese nationalists stirring the pot with talks about purchasing the islands; I'll get to that). Maybe I'm wrong in saying those things are on the mild side and perhaps they are beyond that, but I don't see those things as severe. Ithekro also made some good points about the thing you mentioned about PMs and that shrine (although, Terrestrial Dream offered good points in response to his post, too). Also, I know that nations have criticized Japan over the years for sugar coating how Japan was during WW II, but the Japanese don't want to make their youth feel real negative by divulging too much of the truth about Japan and WW II to them. Maybe it would be a good idea for Japanese universities and colleges to require courses where students are to learn about such things with much less sugar coating.

Maybe that criticism given to Japan isn't all that fair, either. When I was in high school, back in the year 2000, I was listening to someone (from America) talk about how they interacted with some high school students from Germany and they were discussing WW II, and they brought up some of the atrocities committed by the Nazis, and many of the things that they brought up to the high school students that they were talking to were things they hadn't known about, and they were shocked and appalled to hear the things they didn't know. Their schools had shielded them from a lot of things about Nazi Germany, and I would imagine many schools in Germany had done this, as well. That was years ago so maybe schools in Germany don't withhold as much info and details from their students today.

About the Japanese nationalists, well, I could see them being troublesome about things. I'm sure Japanese nationalists are, by and large, not good. Over the last several years I've heard many say how much they hate Chinese nationalists, so my impression of them is that they are, by and large, not good either.

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Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
You also have to remember that China has not been this powerful for long. The Chinese suffered greatly at hands of Japanese and then the Communists under Mao. They were dirt poor until the 1990's, and therefore many of their people are uneducated. Even now, a significant portion of them are still in poverty. You just cannot expect them to behave like nice gentlemen, especially when the matter is about nationalism.
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Originally Posted by Kokukirin View Post
It didn't take much for the English and French to riot. Even the oh-so-peaceful Canadians rioted over losing the Stanley Cup final. It should come to little surprise that there are tens of thousands of Chinese (out of 1.3 billion) rioting over this.
You make good points. A lot of Chinese people aren't well educated and many of them live in poverty. Maybe many of said people were a part of those riots and protests, but I'm not sure. My impression was that these riots and protests were happening in very developed places, so there should be some well educated people who did/are doing these protests and riots. Perhaps not so for most of the middle aged or older protesters. Still, while there is depth to the issue, I don't find this large amount rioting and protesting to be excusable. I think they are way overreacting to the Senkaku issue much like the people angrily protesting in the middle east over that anti-Islam film. This large amount of angry protests and destructive rioting isn't justifiable. Too many of them are just letting their negative emotions rule uninhibitedly.
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Old 2012-09-16, 00:40   Link #23668
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They can feel insulted all they like. That is there right. But denying people the right to honor their own dead because of a minority is wrong. It be like forcing the President of the United States from going to a National Cemetery because there are a few Native Americans buried their that were drafted into the army and fought and died for a country that was oppressing their peoples. (oddly I can see that having happened even without looking at the rosters). Or the African soldiers that fought for the Confederacy. Their service is honored regardless of the fact their people were slaves. Or any number of peoples that have been drafted in times of war.

I know a man who's father was drafted into the Luftwaffe even though he'd moved his entire family to the United States before the war. He fought and survived. (so he wouldn't be an honored dead because he lived), but had he died, he would still be deserving to be honored for his service, even if that service was against his will. If he had died and Germany was more like Japan, would the US protest based on this man being dishonored by a shrine for German war dead? Maybe...maybe not. But should that stop the majority of the dead from being honored there?

I don't know how it works presently in Asia, but the old rules here were, "Majority rules, Minority rights". The minority of the dead and their families have the right to protest, but since they are not the majority of interned souls, they do not have the right to stop the majority from honoring their dead. This isn't a "get over it" sort of thing. This is a "tough, this is our country" sort of thing. That will seem nationalistic, but well, tough, it is. And frankly when it comes to the dead, I see no problem with it. They did serve the Emperor and died for the Emperor by Japanese tradition, and should be honored as such. Their own families can honor or dishonor them individually in their own ways.

If you want symbolism, note that the Emperor himself would not go there after the A-listers souls were added. But he knew those men. He knew what they did. Of anyone in Japan, he, as Emperor, would have the say if they will be honored for service to him. The priests dishonor the Emperor, and they have to live with their shame. But that does not shame the rest of the souls their.

If the A-Listers were alive and being honored...then there would be a problem. But if they were alive, they could be honored alone, and not just mixed in randomly with tens of thousands of other dead people.
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Old 2012-09-16, 00:45   Link #23669
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
I know they aren't perfect and you pointed out some examples, but I think what you brought up are on the mild side (I'm excluding the thing about Japanese nationalists stirring the pot with talks about purchasing the islands; I'll get to that). Maybe I'm wrong in saying those things are on the mild side and perhaps they are beyond that, but I don't see those things as severe.
Yet nobody hesitates crucifying all of US by the trash put out by the far right, that's just the way these things go.

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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
but the Japanese don't want to make their youth feel real negative by divulging too much of the truth about Japan and WW II to them. Maybe it would be a good idea for Japanese universities and colleges to require courses where students are to learn about such things with much less sugar coating.
Eh? that is one horrible excuse if you ask me. The purpose of education is to educate, not to make sure you feel all warm and fuzzy on the inside.

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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
Maybe that criticism given to Japan isn't all that fair, either. When I was in high school, back in the year 2000, I was listening to someone (from America) talk about how they interacted with some high school students from Germany and they were discussing WW II, and they brought up some of the atrocities committed by the Nazis, and many of the things that they brought up to the high school students that they were talking to were things they hadn't known about, and they were shocked and appalled to hear the things they didn't know. Their schools had shielded them from a lot of things about Nazi Germany, and I would imagine many schools in Germany had done this, as well. That was years ago so maybe schools in Germany don't withhold as much info and details from their students today.
I did not go to school in Germany, so obviously I don't have any first-hand account of their curriculum. That being said, I'd hardly use anecdotal evidence with high school students as evidence for either side, they could've just as easily been sleeping during history classes

It's natural that any country's history education will tend to paint itself as the good guy, the US is no exception, but I think it's a telling sign that at least in Germany, to deny the Holocaust is actually a crime.

In Japan? not so much.
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Old 2012-09-16, 01:03   Link #23670
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Originally Posted by Urzu 7 View Post
Maybe that criticism given to Japan isn't all that fair, either. When I was in high school, back in the year 2000, I was listening to someone (from America) talk about how they interacted with some high school students from Germany and they were discussing WW II, and they brought up some of the atrocities committed by the Nazis, and many of the things that they brought up to the high school students that they were talking to were things they hadn't known about, and they were shocked and appalled to hear the things they didn't know. Their schools had shielded them from a lot of things about Nazi Germany, and I would imagine many schools in Germany had done this, as well. That was years ago so maybe schools in Germany don't withhold as much info and details from their students today.
when i was going to School in the US in the late 80s/ early 90s. The history Text books didn't sugar any bit about the US government broken relationship with the Native Americans (Trail of Tears, Small Pox infect blankets) or the Issue of slavery, 3/5 rule, abandonment of Blacks during reconstruction and the civil right issue.
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Old 2012-09-16, 01:20   Link #23671
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The only part of the negative parts of US History I missed before college was Reconstruction...and that was because we ran out of time that year by focusing more on the Civil War (the Ken Burns documentarty came out that year). By high school, the instructor didn't want to bother with that period and started in 1920s chapters so he could make it to roughly present day by the end of the school year.

About the only place they don't get into the bad stuff is World War II. Probably because their is only so much time per school year and their are plenty of bad things to cover with just the Axis Powers before getting to the "generally" considered lesser evils of the Allied Powers. That and the Historical narrative needs to keep moving in you only have one school year to teach everything about American History (with the parts of World History the US was involved with) in the 20th century. The century were we have the most about of data and massive world changing events. Our books were fairly new at the time since they had up to Desert Storm I believe (possibly only up to Desert Shield) and that was 1995 I was in that class. I even altered my book (you weren't suppose to, but I felt adding in the year Nixon died would be fact in a history book).)
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Old 2012-09-16, 01:35   Link #23672
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Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
I'm a chinese myself. This is just to express my disgust.
Heh, yeah its probably a good idea to give your ethnic beforehand. I get really disgusted at the obesity epidemic in white people in the US. I'll be wandering Costco with my wife and the "feeding stations" (samples) are always awash in herds of astoundingly overweight white people.

I just look and in my best Yakko, King of Anvilania voice, say, .... "My... People..." <scream>

Meanwhile, all the marvelously fit/slim Indian/Asian and yes, even Latino people go scampering around them.
(reference: time mark 6:47 through 7:30)
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Old 2012-09-16, 01:49   Link #23673
Urzu 7
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@Urzu 7 --

I apologize beforehand, but I'm finally getting a bit worked up about this! I do hope you know what you're saying are gross generalizations right? Look back, why is Afghanistan so F'd up? Why was the Taliban in power in the first place? Watch the movie, Charlie Wilson's War? Read about Cold War-style proxy wars? Why was there a war in Iraq? Who put Saddam into power? Mubarak? Gaddafi? How many of these guys were "secular" tyrants? Look even further back? Social injustices? Resource wars? People looking the other way due to oil?

I'm going to also refer back to what I wrote previously: Who do you think of as your enemies? How would you deal with them? What does that say about you (and us) ?
(http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...37#post4351837)

Regardless of religion, people who are poor, impoverished and feel oppressed (both rightly and wrongly) will be brainwashed to fight those whom they believe to be their enemies. Are they right? Are we their enemies? The answer to these questions are murky and cannot and should not be reduced to "Religion -> Islam"

EDIT: Sumeragi beat me to it, but put it succinctly, you cannot say "Militant Islam" is a problem without assessing the historical events that caused it. Which is what I was alluding to above.
I wrote this in another thread:

Quote:
I'm reminded of something I already know, but on so many issues that are up for debate, there is just so much complexity and depth to them, and the root of issues are so often not focused and concise, but rather large in number and spread out.
I've been typing out a lot for responses tonight. Sometimes I'd be writing a post and then have another post I'd want to write in queue. I would have so much to say and I'm jumping around screens where I'm creating a post and jumping between some topics, so I'm trying to engage in multiple conversations with multiple people.

So what am I getting at? Well, what you put in your post, well, it is good, it is drawing perspectives and talking about how what I was discussing has much complexity and depth to it. The thing is, I do understand this and have thought about such things kind of a lot in the past (how the violence in the middle east and from the Muslim world isn't just due to things found in Islam alone, or how many Muslims don't hate America just because most Americans are nonbelievers to them). I didn't touch upon things you brought into perspective in your post, but I do know, generally, of things you've mentioned and understand that is all integrated into what I was discussing.

Nonetheless, the religion of Islam plays into a lot of problems with the Muslim world today. There is religion and there is organized religion. The biggest problem with the Muslim world and Islam is how the organized religion of Islam is operating. You've got governments which converge a form of government with Islam. You've got many people who lack a good education. You've got a lot of people who are being controlled by authority figures. You have governments who will jail people for the littlest thing if it is negative towards Islam. Governments which don't allow for freedom of religion. They won't let people study or learn about other religions. You have Muslim clerics who steer the views and opinions and beliefs of the masses. These clerics will often give misinformation or half-truths in their sermons, and they will often purposely rile up followers with anti-western sentiments. You have officials of authority (religious and government officials) who are controlling the masses in some of these countries. And then there is the extremism and militant Muslims. Poverty, oppression, poor levels of education, the inability to get a lot of facts and more unbiased information about other parts of the world and other peoples of the world, popular beliefs in their cultures...so many things that can, together, bring people down a path leading to joining an extremist faction or having support for them. And the extremists and terrorists themselves, being devout Muslims, can easily be swayed by others to fight in the name of their religion. The people who recruit extremists manipulate them by citing things in the Qu'ran. They are twisting things to persuade them to take the path of an extremist.

Although they twist things and manipulate others, there are things in the Qu'ran which tell Muslims it is right and acceptable to fight in the name of Islam and to fight nonbelievers. The religion of Islam itself does indeed have some bad things about it and people are using some of them as a basis to justify violence and killing. I mean, look at the verses I put into quotes in that one post I made and look at some of the verses in the link I gave in that post. And many Muslims are very devout and they believe every bit of the Qu'ran is the holy word of Allah, so many Muslims believe all those verses about fighting in the name of Allah and fighting nonbelievers to be totally true. It leads to a lot of Muslims believing that violence and killing are acceptable and justifiable for reasons which really aren't. This is what leads to, say, people making statements like "Behead all those who insult the prophet", or lead people in Europe to threaten or, worse yet, kill someone for making a political cartoon with Mohammed in it (these things happened last decade, you probably read or heard about them).
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Old 2012-09-16, 02:19   Link #23674
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Yes, and how is that any different from other religious texts, specifically the Old Testament? The main problem with your initial post was how you made it seem it was a problem of the Koran, not the general situation with the Koran being a contributing factor. Furthermore, you should have mentioned other texts.
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Old 2012-09-16, 02:23   Link #23675
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Yes, and how is that any different from other religious texts, specifically the Old Testament? The main problem with your initial post was how you made it seem it was a problem of the Koran, not the general situation with the Koran being a contributing factor. Furthermore, you should have mentioned other texts.
Which post? Point out which one so that I can better respond to the point you are making.
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Old 2012-09-16, 02:42   Link #23676
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This post. The basic thread of discussions started since you left out historical and sociological aspects to the violence that is happening in the Muslim world.
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Old 2012-09-16, 02:55   Link #23677
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
I did not go to school in Germany, so obviously I don't have any first-hand account of their curriculum. That being said, I'd hardly use anecdotal evidence with high school students as evidence for either side, they could've just as easily been sleeping during history classes
The Nazis and the Holocaust are intensively discussed in every German school. Every student hears about those things - often for many years. Of course there's also the media bombarding you with Nazi stuff all day. Almost every student will visit a concentration camp at least once (we visited Dachau and Bergen-Belsen). Many students actually started complaining about hearing about all that stuff yet again, feeling other parts of history (e.g. the GDR) were being neglected. There's nothing positive or down-playing about the portrayal of the Nazis in German history classes at all. (I even had the feeling that Hitler's great military victories were being mentioned only very briefly, not to make us start admiring)
You can of course manage to not learn anything in class, but that's not an easy task. But the topic is very broad - you will never learn every detail.

The portrayal is all-in-all so negative that most Germans support bans on public pro-Nazi expressions with a passion without seeing any contradiction to freedom of speech. Showing the swastika, doing the Hitler salute, trivializing Nazi crimes or their reign, denying the Holocaust (even doubting the numbers or other details) and a few other things can end you up in jail. For every small right-wing protest you have a counter protest ten times larger and they will violently attack and disturb the right-wingers. Everything is so extreme that any sign of patriotism is seen as dangerous. You will not see German students singing the anthem for example, like you see in other countries. I doubt you will find any other in world where students will be so much indoctrinated to hate their own country, fearing any kind of nationalism.
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Old 2012-09-16, 03:08   Link #23678
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I always wonder how Buddhists and Hindus get by in Germany since versions of the swastika.. hell, the swastika is a zillion years old and integral in those religions. My Tokyo and Japanese maps swarm with them (markers indicating temples)
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Old 2012-09-16, 03:10   Link #23679
KiraYamatoFan
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Oh, go easy on the koolaid there will ya? "Japan owned China in almost any domain for so many centuries"??? which planet's history have you been reading? It's one thing to love Japan and hate China, but if you're starting to revise history, you need to get some help.

Like it or not, China for the most part has been one of the largest and most important cultural center of East Asia through most of its history, there's a reason why the Japanese uses Chinese characters in their language, and not the other way around.

It wasn't until the 1800s when the downfall of the Qing Dynasty begin with western imperialists forced their way in that China begin its latest serious decline. Japan in the mean time escaped much of that and was able to quickly industrialize itself, a process mind you was far from peaceful as you seem to be implying.
You want facts? Fine! Since the 13th Century, back when Mongolia and China were one single empire, Japan inflicted defeats to the Khan's army in direct confrontations when there were any. Those defeats had the same impact on China as it was for Spain when the Spanish Invincible Armada got destroyed by a storm and the English navy over 300 years later. Between the 13th Century and the 19th Century, the Chinese empire could have tried taking over Japan again with their army and numbers when Japanese warlords were fighting each other, but didn't. And why is that? Probably because Japan had enough military strength during all this time when the discrepancy between the 2 countries was not that big yet.

Culture... that's another subject and it's irrelevant to make comparisons in this domain when doing so is not giving answers.

Economics... the Portugese traders may have arrived in China first, but they also arrived in Japan around the same time before being followed by the Dutch a century later. The funny thing is that Japan maintained a solid trade partnership with the Netherlands and Portugal, so much that the domain of rangaku (the study of Western sciences) was created. Oda Nobunaga's men even used Western technology in his part of the exchange. Meanwhile, I'm not sure there was much of a deep commercial AND cultural exchange at the same time between the Qing empire and European nations (commercial perhaps, but certainly not cultural).

When Western powers arrived stronger in East Asia by the 19th Century (also count Perry's entrance in Japan as part of this period), China made the mistake of adopting a very defensive/hostile position against Westerners and trying to fight the British twice. Meanwhile, a group of clever men in Japan made sure to follow the flow of modernization and avoid confrontation with Western nations. Except for the Boshin War and a few small rebellions later on, Japan held their own industrial revolution without much internal trouble until the 1930s. In other words, when choosing between the red pill and the blue pill, the Qing empire chose the wrong pill, they chose confrontation and resistance to change instead of cooperation and modernization, and the gap between the 2 countries became wider as a result. They only have themselves to blame.

When you look at those facts, I'm not too far off the mark when I say that Japan held some advantage in different domains over China for a long time and then the widening discrepancy between the 2 countries in the late 1890s started creating an inferiority complex on the continentals' side. I'm no Japanese; I am a Canadian with Vietnamese blood (hence, somewhat proud of having ancestors and relatives who stood against bullying giants). So whenever I hear about communism or the PRC, my blood is boiling, especially with the current situation with the Senkaku Islands. So, the last thing I want to read now is someone saying that I am off the mark.

Those were my 2 cents for kyp275.
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Old 2012-09-16, 03:18   Link #23680
willx
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 31
@Uruz 7 -- Argh! I'm going to pull out my hair. This is my last post before scooting off to bed due to waking up early for travel tomorrow morning!

EDIT: - Snip! - Apparently this post wasn't appreciated and I was reputation -neg'd and told I was ranting like a "loon" ..which is a tad frustrating because each statement is a logical refutation of prior statements made.

Last edited by willx; 2012-09-17 at 15:54.
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