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Old 2012-09-25, 08:31   Link #23901
Der Langrisser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
But the fact than right now they only have the Charle-de-Gaule mean than they can't keep their presence somewhere for very long as boat can't stay at sea forever. The UK will end u with the same issue.
That's the problem, there was talks with the UK to conjointly build one of their future Elizabeth-class conventionnal carriers for our own Navy.
Unfortunately the decision was postponed, and with the economic crisis, we'll have to make with only the Charles de Gaulle for quite a few years.
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Old 2012-09-25, 08:32   Link #23902
Sumeragi
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Well, I don't know..... Does France actually need that big a permanent presence except in the Med?
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Old 2012-09-25, 08:45   Link #23903
DonQuigleone
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France doesn't necessarily need more then 1 functional Aircraft Carrier. The key thing is that it has one that is fully functional, and they know how to use it. That means that if the world becomes more tense, and less peaceful, they don't need to do any design or testing work to build more. They can simply duplicate their current designs. Overall this is a cheap way to maintain potential military power.

The same is true with Japan and nuclear weapons. Japan does not have any, but they could easily build them if they needed to within a few months. They have all the missiles ready to launch them with, and a large amount of Nuclear expertise.
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Old 2012-09-25, 08:47   Link #23904
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
They have all the missiles ready to launch them with
Japan does not, unless you mean the rockets being converted, which would take an year or two.
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Old 2012-09-25, 08:54   Link #23905
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Japan does not, unless you mean the rockets being converted, which would take an year or two.
Rockets could be converted faster then that. It's quite easy to change a rocket into a missile, especially if the rocket doesn't have to hit anywhere too precise.
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Old 2012-09-25, 08:56   Link #23906
Zakoo
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
The same is true with Japan and nuclear weapons. Japan does not have any, but they could easily build them if they needed to within a few months. They have all the missiles ready to launch them with, and a large amount of Nuclear expertise.
Aren't the substances needed to make a central works and a H bomb totally different? And since Japan is strictly forbidden to have atomic bomb, aside some illegal means to have some elements, they can't?
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Old 2012-09-25, 08:59   Link #23907
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Rockets could be converted faster then that. It's quite easy to change a rocket into a missile, especially if the rocket doesn't have to hit anywhere too precise.
You have no idea how difficult it is. That's the kind of civilian knowledge which is actually incorrect. The fact is that ballistic missiles, especially of the ICBM type we're talking about, would require much more planning and mechanics than just firing something into space.
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Old 2012-09-25, 09:05   Link #23908
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Rockets could be converted faster then that. It's quite easy to change a rocket into a missile, especially if the rocket doesn't have to hit anywhere too precise.
Actually, it has to be rather precise. If you want to target enemy strategic assets.


You are better off building a dedicated ICBM than converting a simple payload bus
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Old 2012-09-25, 09:05   Link #23909
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
France doesn't necessarily need more then 1 functional Aircraft Carrier. The key thing is that it has one that is fully functional, and they know how to use it. That means that if the world becomes more tense, and less peaceful, they don't need to do any design or testing work to build more. They can simply duplicate their current designs. Overall this is a cheap way to maintain potential military power.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-admiral.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/04/su...pagewanted=all

Did you pay attention to the debacle that was Libya? The British and the French were the ones that were most gung-ho about going in, but were slow to react and required the U.S. to start the campaign and take the dangerous missions of knocking out the anti-aircraft defenses.

Even after the U.S. backed off, they still flew ~25% of all air sorties even though it was a NATO operation. Most of the NATO nations also ran out of ammo, fuel and repair parts and had to purchase them from the U.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
The same is true with Japan and nuclear weapons. Japan does not have any, but they could easily build them if they needed to within a few months. They have all the missiles ready to launch them with, and a large amount of Nuclear expertise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
Aren't the substances needed to make a central works and a H bomb totally different? And since Japan is strictly forbidden to have atomic bomb, aside some illegal means to have some elements, they can't?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_of_Honor - Fictional. But it's amusing.

What kind of missiles are you referring to? Simple long-range nuclear missiles? ICBMs? Submarine mounted? They're all pretty different and the first are vulnerable to counter-measures.
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Old 2012-09-25, 10:53   Link #23910
Der Langrisser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Well, I don't know..... Does France actually need that big a permanent presence except in the Med?
France have quite a few possesions overseas (altough mainly tiny rocks like the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands).


Also France have the 2nd largest exclusive economic zone in the world, so we need to show off a bit.


The real problem is that our current carrier is nuclear-powered, and as such, is only available half of the year, the other half is for maintenance.
So the Navy need another carrier to project air power when good ol' Charles is unavailable.
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Old 2012-09-25, 10:58   Link #23911
DonQuigleone
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RE Japan and Nuclear weapons: Rockets are of the same mechanism as ICBMs. If they can launch rockets into space, they can launch a rocket to hit an enemy city. Furthermore, they don't need the range that the US or UK might need in their ICBMs. The main hypothetical threats Japanese ICBMs would need to deal with would be North Korea and China, who are fairly close by.

Also, while it is difficult to control a rocket enough to hit a precise target, Japan only needs an ICBM to hit a large city like Beijing. The thing doesn't even need much in the way of computer controls. You just need to know the local weather and terrain, and launch it with dead reckoning(like the V2 rocket). It's a lot more difficult to miss Beijing then a missile silo in Siberia. And all Japan really needs is a deterrent. Not only that, but Japan doesn't even absolutely need ICBMs. They can still drop a theoretical warhead from a bomber.

In terms of Nuclear materials, they have all the materials to make fuel in their nuclear reactors already. They'd just need to retool their centrifuges a bit to run longer. I believe I heard somewhere that if Japan wanted to, they could have weapons grade Uranium in 6 months, if they want to.

And as far as technical knowledge is concerned, let's not forget that Japan is one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world (if not the most advanced), it has all the expertise it could possibly ever need to build a bomb. In fact, it's entirely possible that the government has plans secreted away somewhere to do just that, should the need arise.
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Old 2012-09-25, 11:02   Link #23912
Ithekro
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However what was being discussed was missiles to take out a warship. Something far smaller than a city and is a moving target.

Maybe something a little more old school. Modernized Long Lance torpedoes?
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Old 2012-09-25, 11:10   Link #23913
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
-Snip-
1. Oversimplifying ballistic missiles in general is a great no no.
2. Bombers? You mean Japan is going to take a few years to develop and manufacture bombers?
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Old 2012-09-25, 11:20   Link #23914
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
RE Japan and Nuclear weapons: Rockets are of the same mechanism as ICBMs. If they can launch rockets into space, they can launch a rocket to hit an enemy city. Furthermore, they don't need the range that the US or UK might need in their ICBMs. The main hypothetical threats Japanese ICBMs would need to deal with would be North Korea and China, who are fairly close by.

Also, while it is difficult to control a rocket enough to hit a precise target, Japan only needs an ICBM to hit a large city like Beijing. The thing doesn't even need much in the way of computer controls. You just need to know the local weather and terrain, and launch it with dead reckoning(like the V2 rocket). It's a lot more difficult to miss Beijing then a missile silo in Siberia. And all Japan really needs is a deterrent. Not only that, but Japan doesn't even absolutely need ICBMs. They can still drop a theoretical warhead from a bomber.

In terms of Nuclear materials, they have all the materials to make fuel in their nuclear reactors already. They'd just need to retool their centrifuges a bit to run longer. I believe I heard somewhere that if Japan wanted to, they could have weapons grade Uranium in 6 months, if they want to.

And as far as technical knowledge is concerned, let's not forget that Japan is one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world (if not the most advanced), it has all the expertise it could possibly ever need to build a bomb. In fact, it's entirely possible that the government has plans secreted away somewhere to do just that, should the need arise.
Even for killing cities, you need things like defences for your missile, MIRV warheads, guidance packages etc.

You can't take a civilian rocket and convert it like that. You really want something practical, you buy Tomahawks from the US and then tip with nukes
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Old 2012-09-25, 11:23   Link #23915
Vexx
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I'm just going to say that getting from rocket A to rocket B is almost as much rocket science as building rocket A in the first place .... -_-
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Old 2012-09-25, 12:23   Link #23916
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
2. Bombers? You mean Japan is going to take a few years to develop and manufacture bombers?
Images
Japan already built bombers
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

With regards to ballistic missiles of intercontinential and medium range series, they are NOT your typical missiles because they travel to close-orbital altitude, meaning their guidance system must have an accurate mechanics to fire those re-entry boosters.

And that is only one issue, we also need hardening, more stages.....
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Old 2012-09-25, 12:59   Link #23917
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
1. Oversimplifying ballistic missiles in general is a great no no.
Rockets are a lot less complex then you might think. Furthermore, this is Japan, not North Korea.
Quote:
2. Bombers? You mean Japan is going to take a few years to develop and manufacture bombers?
Or just use any of these. Transport Aircraft could easily be adapted into a basic bomber.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Even for killing cities, you need things like defences for your missile, MIRV warheads, guidance packages etc.
Nonsense, the sort of enemies Japan has to deal with don't possess advanced missile defenses. As for MIRV, One warhead close to the center of Beijing is enough. No need for anything fancy. As for Guidance systems, Germany could hit London during WW2 with simple dead reckoning. Japan can do the same.
Quote:
You can't take a civilian rocket and convert it like that. You really want something practical, you buy Tomahawks from the US and then tip with nukes
Simply tip a civilian rocket on it's side and it functions like a large missile. The whole point of developing rockets in the first place is that they're functionally identical to ICBMs. It's a way to develop weapons without seeming like you are (in the cold war context). Launching a satellite into space equally means you can drop a payload from space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'm just going to say that getting from rocket A to rocket B is almost as much rocket science as building rocket A in the first place .... -_-
As I said. Tip the rocket over at an angle, and it basically functions like a missile. You just need to tip it at the right angle and direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
With regards to ballistic missiles of intercontinential and medium range series, they are NOT your typical missiles because they travel to close-orbital altitude, meaning their guidance system must have an accurate mechanics to fire those re-entry boosters.

And that is only one issue, we also need hardening, more stages.....
Last time I checked Japan could put Satellites in space. If you can put a satellite in space, you just need to change the launch trajectory so that instead of going into orbit, it falls back to earth...
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Old 2012-09-25, 12:59   Link #23918
Paranoid Android
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Damn it SaintessHeart, why did you have to troll me like that?

Don't forget military-use missiles derived from anything like what Japan currently has (at least publicly been known to have) can be so easily intercepted by any nation that invested into a substantial military. It's almost a complete overhaul when it comes to armed warheads.

This all changes in the scenario that USA decides to share something from their extravagant military repertoire, which I doubt. The US has no incentive to support Japan past the capability of keeping China in check and conflicted.
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Old 2012-09-25, 13:09   Link #23919
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
As I said. Tip the rocket over at an angle, and it basically functions like a missile. You just need to tip it at the right angle and direction.

Last time I checked Japan could put Satellites in space. If you can put a satellite in space, you just need to change the launch trajectory so that instead of going into orbit, it falls back to earth...
That's the unknowledgeable people's thought. For a ballistic missile to function as such you need to have trajectory controls, which are completely different from just tipping over a rocket, and requires much sophisticated engineering that a civilian would think. Furthermore, there is the problem of guidance which I wouldn't even begin to discuss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Or just use any of these. Transport Aircraft could easily be adapted into a basic bomber.
Again, no. The basic idea that transport aircraft can be turned into a bomber that easily is ignoring the aerodynamic problems and the basic mechanism of loading a bomb and such.



Frankly, everything you say can be summarized like this: It's just a average person's line of thinking which is not applicable to actual weapon research and development. If things were that simple, quite a few countries would have ICBMs right now. They don't because a ballistic missile of practical use requires much engineering skill and time.
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Old 2012-09-25, 13:11   Link #23920
Vexx
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All I can say is if I show those notions to my comrades at NASA is that there will be a lot of facepalming... really...
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