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Old 2009-04-30, 18:30   Link #2401
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy View Post
So wait, defending yourself against an aggressor is considered childish behavior now? I mean I understand and appreciate pacifism but there comes a point where you have to fight back doesn't there?

This is not a troll or flame post, I'm asking a serious philosophical question here...or at least trying to.

I ask this because I've noticed a severe strain of attitude in the world of people wanting a peaceful existence but not being willing to get their hand dirty in order to achieve it.

Is the idea of peace really possible without some authority to uphold it?
The poster was suggesting a pre-emptive military assault on North Korea because they rant and drop pants at the world. That isn't "defending yourself against an aggressor". There are good criteria for executing a military solution to defend onself - this isn't one of them.

There are very effective ways of dealing with North Korea's childish behavior - charging across the border in some ball-waving bravado at this point isn't warranted (for the moment). For example, the more China gets tangled up in Pacific Rim and Western economy --- the less sanguine they'll be about North Korean actually acting out rather than just shouting. The Chinese government likes North Korea as a pawn to keep Japan, South Korea, and the US a bit off balance. China doesn't want a war (with millions of refugees pouring across their border).

The US had its eye OFF the ball with North Korea for eight years while it pissed away resources elsewhere. In that time they've probably made considerable progress in their drive for a nuclear missile (though their missile technology still largely seems to suck). I do regret that the North Koreans didn't conduct their recent missile test over Chinese airspace .... that would have been interesting to watch.
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Old 2009-04-30, 18:54   Link #2402
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Quote:
The poster was suggesting a pre-emptive military assault on North Korea because they rant and drop pants at the world. That isn't "defending yourself against an aggressor".
Ya ok, so I wrongly interpreted your post to mean in general you thought military action was childish behavior, I'm sorry, my bad there.

With N.K. firing missiles in arbitrary directions (seemingly) already, I'm wondering what they will have to do before the world considers them as dangerous enough to warrant military action. Must blood flow first before we can act?

Maybe it's a better idea to let the countries in the immediate area to decide what actions are best but, other than China is there a country with the where-with-all to do anything about it? Does there need to be anything done about it...hmm I'd be interested to hear what other Asian peoples think of when they hear the words "North Korea" or "Kim Jong Ill", do they roll their eyes or do they shudder in terror? Probably somewhere in the middle I suppose. Anyway sorry to go off kilter in regards to the threads purpose.
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Old 2009-04-30, 20:06   Link #2403
Vexx
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I apparently just got accused of being "in the pay of" North Korea via a negrep ... if so, I'd sure like to know where those checks got off to

N.K. specifically taunts Japan and the US with the direction they choose for their missile tests. If missile debris ever does land on someone -- I suspect the N.K. would quickly find out just how accurately a quiet little flock of Tomahawk cruise missiles or SRAMs can mess up their little toys :P
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Old 2009-04-30, 20:13   Link #2404
solomon
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Mere self preservation. NK knows it's toast if it does anything stupid, like a full frontal attack. The problem is the aid and negotations, if China stopped giving them aid that would be something. Then there was the dragging of america's feet during the light water reactor deal.....

But on the whole, No. We shouldn't engage in warfare with the NK.
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Old 2009-04-30, 20:16   Link #2405
Irenicus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy
Must blood flow first before we can act?
Essentially, yes. =_=

A country's right to protect its citizens from unprovoked attack is well recognized. Pre-emptive strike...not so much. Nobody likes the Bush doctrine, and the countries in the region do have some (haha, "some") power to protest, very loudly and not necessarily with just their voice, at its potential application. They have a lot to lose from a full-scale war. The world has, actually. Seoul being turned into a warzone and Tokyo under missile bombardment would make the current recession look like an economic paradise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
I apparently just got accused of being "in the pay of" North Korea via a negrep ... if so, I'd sure like to know where those checks got off to
Don't you just love it when people don't even bother to PM you with their political objections before negrepping you away?

I got that once in a while too. Most of the time they don't even get it.
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Old 2009-04-30, 20:23   Link #2406
Shadow Kira01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solomon View Post
Mere self preservation. NK knows it's toast if it does anything stupid, like a full frontal attack. The problem is the aid and negotations, if China stopped giving them aid that would be something. Then there was the dragging of america's feet during the light water reactor deal.....

But on the whole, No. We shouldn't engage in warfare with the NK.
Agree. The United States should not engage in warfare with North Korea because of a variety of reasons: 1) due to the Iraq war, American citizens have grown to dislike the whole idea of a military conflict regardless of the reason and size, 2) Obama would like to focus on the Afghanistan issue and it appears that the Talibans and Al-Qaeda are not going to give up yet, 3) another war will definitely bring the collapse of the American economy and that is not good, considering that repairing the economy has yet to work out.

Supposedly, China can be the key to success in the six-party negotiations but unfortunately, that key is North Korea's winning card rather than the denuclearization card. If China would not support North Korea by all means, then North Korea wouldn't dare to make such provocative intimidations. China is helping North Korea to the point that it has become obvious to the whole world that they can no longer deny it.

Truth is that if the United States do engage in a military conflict with North Korea, their true enemy would not be the North Korean military but the return of the yellow seats, members of the Peoples Liberation Army of China. Obviously, the United States would rather fight anybody than those guys who bear hatred against America for no reason at all, except the fact that the United States is an obstacle to their plans to conquer the world. Russia is also an obstacle to them but without the aid of Russia, China alone is no match against the powerful military might of the United States. And thus, China is not foolish enough to cause internal strife with Russia. However, if a war does break out between the United States and North Korea, China will definitely be sending large numbers of soldiers, as well as all sorts of supplies (food, medicine, weaponry) to their aid but I doubt Russia will get involved. Russia does not get along with North Korea.

In other words.. Although I believe there is no other alternative to deal with North Korea aside from a pre-emptive military operation to remove the threat (the leaders and generals) without harming their citizens and anybody else is possibly the only solution within no solutions. However, considering the economy and the emotions of American citizens, the United States will no way be fighting a war with China and North Korea anytime soon, especially after what the Bush Administration had done in Iraq and to the American economy.
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Old 2009-04-30, 20:46   Link #2407
Vexx
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Now *that* assessment I can mostly agree with. And thanks for clarifying what you meant by a "military strike" (precision rather than full-scale).

I figure at some point, the North Koreans will be waving their fannies and slip and fall (i.e. actually really damage something with missile debris or something equivalent). Cue incoming Tomahawk strike on their expensive research complex ... and really, the Chinese might whine but they'd know that N.K. stepped in it themselves.
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Old 2009-04-30, 21:08   Link #2408
Terrestrial Dream
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It seems that some gave me a neg rep saying "You STFU!" and Shadow Minato wrote this in my visitor message.
Quote:
Your attitude needs improvement. Or perhaps to say, your attitude is a violation of the forum rules here on AnimeSuki.
And lets see why I told you to stfu. You are talking about a engaging a warfare North Korea. The problem is that you are not even thinking about the people in the East Asia the effect it will have on the entire region and its people. Warfare with North Korea is never the solution as it will lead to death of thousands possibly millions. It will lead to crippling of economy in Korea and resulting thousands refuges flooding China and South Korea. Your statement essentially is ethnocentric as you are ignoring the people in that region and focusing on what is best for America and no one else. Obviously I will get angry over such statement as I have family there and all your idea is disregarding Korea.

But if your point was preemptive strike then you should have stated it clearly before. And what you described is impossible quick preemptive strike will never work.
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Old 2009-04-30, 21:20   Link #2409
Tri-ring
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I believe that PRC have some political obligation towards NK but from the articles that I have read quoting PRC military officials, I doubt PRC will get involved actively.
A general survey from PRC shows that the majority feels it is un-necessary for PRC to provide military aid towards NK and only provide logistical assistance to contain battle within NK borders.

No I do not support pre-emptive strike by the US but if a military conflict does occur, I would place a wager that Washington had already achieved secret aggreements with Beijing the bounderies and rules of engagement between the two nations.
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Old 2009-04-30, 22:28   Link #2410
TooPurePureBoy
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Quote:
Warfare with North Korea is never the solution as it will lead to death of thousands possibly millions.
Maybe I'm wrong on this one, (i'm just playing devil's advocate here) but aren't there many people dying due to poor treatment under the N.K regime? What is the difference how people die, if they are dying no matter ?

Quote:
Your statement essentially is ethnocentric as you are ignoring the people in that region and focusing on what is best for America and no one else.
When interacting person to person it is important to respect all peoples and their lives, but as far as the American Gov't. is concerned I would hope they would be focused on what is best for America. That is the oath they swear as our representatives.
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Old 2009-04-30, 22:39   Link #2411
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy View Post
When interacting person to person it is important to respect all peoples and their lives, but as far as the American Gov't. is concerned I would hope they would be focused on what is best for America. That is the oath they swear as our representatives.
I suspect what is best for the US also includes minimizing the damage we do to others to protect ourselves from the direct danger. Best to look far down the road and not just at the car you're tailgating.

... though the USA forgets that periodically and then spends years repairing the faux pas. The most frequent problem over the last 50 years or so has been getting all cozy with a single strongman of a country (or even installing him) and then being caught flat-footed when the citizens revolt or other factions take power. How many times do we get to make that stupid lazy-ass mistake? Build relations at all levels with multiple factions, duh.
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Old 2009-04-30, 22:48   Link #2412
TooPurePureBoy
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I suspect what is best for the US also includes minimizing the damage we do to others to protect ourselves. ... though the USA forgets that periodically and then spends years repairing the faux pas. The most frequent problem over the last 50 years or so has been getting all cozy with a single strongman of a country (or even installing him) and then being caught flat-footed when the citizens revolt or other factions take power? How many times do we get to make that stupid lazy-ass mistake?
Hey don't get me wrong Vexx, I'm more of an isolationist when it comes to foreign policy. That's what I mean when I say that the American govt should think of Americas best interest. I prefer personally that we kept our nose out of the rest of the worlds business for the most part. America is a huge country and we have plenty of problems of our own to deal with. I hope that makes sense.

Moving on to other news.....

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=103694193

Like the article says, this probably won't change the ideological landscape much, but I thought it might make the more "lefty" leaning folks around here (read most of you ) happy. I'm sure Obama will be appointing a fairly liberal judge to fill this position. Let the left rejoice! .....Well ok so like I said it actually means nothing in the "Grand Scheme" of things. Now the judge after that ...well if it's Stevens (sorry if i got the name wrong ...that's off the top of my head) he is the real tie breaker in the court....that would be big news.
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Old 2009-04-30, 22:56   Link #2413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy View Post
Maybe I'm wrong on this one, (i'm just playing devil's advocate here) but aren't there many people dying due to poor treatment under the N.K regime? What is the difference how people die, if they are dying no matter ?
Ugh that is a terribly fallacy.

You're acting bigoted now, please. It matters. It's like saying you're going to die eventually, so it's entirely justified for me to murder you, because you would die anyways! Method does matter. And besides they're not dying by the buttloads like how bombing and other fun things would do.

Really there are only a few options left; left China deal with the NK, or lay down an ultimatum; "Stop BSing or else NK disappears from the map". Or let Kim Jong Il die and see who sets up.

Unfortunately all this talk of stupid world leaders reminds me of CoD4 and the SAS. When was the last time an assassination was ordered?
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Old 2009-04-30, 23:08   Link #2414
TooPurePureBoy
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Ugh that is a terribly fallacy.

You're acting bigoted now, please. It matters. It's like saying you're going to die eventually, so it's entirely justified for me to murder you, because you would die anyways! Method does matter. And besides they're not dying by the buttloads like how bombing and other fun things would do.

Really there are only a few options left; left China deal with the NK, or lay down an ultimatum; "Stop BSing or else NK disappears from the map". Or let Kim Jong Il die and see who sets up.

Unfortunately all this talk of stupid world leaders reminds me of CoD4 and the SAS. When was the last time an assassination was ordered?
That statement was meant to be taken as philosophical statement it is not necessarily my feelings of how things should proceed. It was supposed to spark debate, not name calling and accusations. Please try to debate in a mature manner, no need to jump to conclusions that I'm some hate filled war monger because I am not. You can clearly see that I said I was playing devil's advocate. Why so quick to make assumptions about a total stranger? Is that really the most intelligent way have a conversation?
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Old 2009-04-30, 23:25   Link #2415
Vexx
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Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy View Post
Hey don't get me wrong Vexx, I'm more of an isolationist when it comes to foreign policy. That's what I mean when I say that the American govt should think of Americas best interest. I prefer personally that we kept our nose out of the rest of the worlds business for the most part. America is a huge country and we have plenty of problems of our own to deal with. I hope that makes sense.
heh, wasn't really criticizing so much as just expanding on what you said. It is a government's mandate to consider what is best for its people --- not just some special interest or faction, and to look at the long-range picture rather than what is just expedient or lazy. The long range picture should include Plan B, and C, and D.
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Old 2009-04-30, 23:34   Link #2416
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
heh, wasn't really criticizing so much as just expanding on what you said. It is a government's mandate to consider what is best for its people --- not just some special interest or faction, and to look at the long-range picture rather than what is just expedient or lazy. The long range picture should include Plan B, and C, and D.
Woah now... I may be misunderstanding something, but isn't the government supposed to work for what the PEOPLE think is best? That is what they are elected for in the United States of America. I don't like the idea of the Government thinking they know better than those that elect them... That leads to the Government getting too powerful and limiting the voice that the people have. It has nothing to do with sides either, government doesn't always know what is best after all. (Especially the US government... bunch of idiots in Congress... for at least the last 10 years, if not always...)
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Old 2009-05-01, 00:09   Link #2417
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This just in!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_194243.html
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Old 2009-05-01, 00:26   Link #2418
Shadow Kira01
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@Tri-Ring: I don't agree with warfare against North Korea but..

Truth is that it is better for the Americans to fight against the North Koreans before the risks of getting invaded by the North Korean missiles. The SDF does not have the capability to fight North Korea if they do ever attack. However, if the Americans are provoked enough by the North Koreans, the two of them will fight against each other, ensuring regional peace and stability.

Japan cannot afford to be involved with a military offensive but the Americans, on the other hand aren't in the same situation. They are already in multiple wars and that they do have a very powerful army, especially their navies. North Korea's geographical location is at a disadvantage if they were to deal with the American navies in a military warfare. In other words, if the Americans were to invade North Korea, it should be a piece of cake unless China intervenes which must be considered as a possibility. It is better to be cautious than to be careless. However, if China do get involved, then things become a lot more complicated and difficult. Will China get involved a second time like the Korean War??

I wish a war will not happen anytime soon in East Asia. I also wish that if a second Korean war were to occur, China won't get involved and it will be over as quickly as it starts. Thus, regional peace and stability will be ensured for a period of time. Unfortunately, pretty words don't mean a thing when it comes to politics involving North Korea and China.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
IAnd lets see why I told you to stfu. You are talking about a engaging a warfare North Korea. The problem is that you are not even thinking about the people in the East Asia the effect it will have on the entire region and its people. Warfare with North Korea is never the solution as it will lead to death of thousands possibly millions. It will lead to crippling of economy in Korea and resulting thousands refuges flooding China and South Korea. Your statement essentially is ethnocentric as you are ignoring the people in that region and focusing on what is best for America and no one else.Obviously I will get angry over such statement as I have family there and all your idea is disregarding Korea.
You are absolutely wrong. I do not care much about America at all. Japan is currently potentially threatened by the provocative presence of North Korea and the United States seems to be too focus on their own benefits as to not offend China which forces them into a comprising position with the North Koreans which is absolutely pathetic. Japan and the United States are allies and thus, I do hope that the American economy don't collapse over North Korean intimidation. However, I am definitely unhappy with how the Americans deal with this North Korea issue. They are thinking too much of themselves and their bilateral relations with the Chinese, while at the same time.. They are being unreasonable cowardly towards North Korea which makes no sense.

As for your statement as to whether I am disregarding South Korea, you are probably correct. I don't really care much as to what happens to South Korea if they are going to back off against a common enemy, North Korea because they prioritizes too much over their own safety and is ignoring what North Korea is recently doing. Its like South Korea would rather bow down to the North Koreans rather than fight back along with Japan and the United States against their unreasonable intimidations over their missile and nuclear activities. If South Korea would act reasonably, I would care about them of course. Bilateral ties are important.
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Old 2009-05-01, 02:14   Link #2419
Vexx
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Woah now... I may be misunderstanding something, but isn't the government supposed to work for what the PEOPLE think is best? That is what they are elected for in the United States of America. I don't like the idea of the Government thinking they know better than those that elect them... That leads to the Government getting too powerful and limiting the voice that the people have. It has nothing to do with sides either, government doesn't always know what is best after all. (Especially the US government... bunch of idiots in Congress... for at least the last 10 years, if not always...)
They're elected to REPRESENT the people's best interests - not to react instantly to public opinion polls .... ya know, sometimes "the people" just aren't that bright on a particular matter either.

What do "the people" want done in regard to the H1N1 flu problem? "make it go away". The implementation is delegated to the experts.
What do "the people" want done about North Korea? Frankly, most of them don't have a clue outside of "make the problem go away". The problem is very complicated and naturally involves the interests of every other country surrounding the Korean Peninsula.

That's why we have a representative republic rather than a pure democracy. How well that works depends on how we limit influence from narrow special interests, of course.
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Old 2009-05-01, 04:15   Link #2420
ganbaru
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I agree with you Vexx, the problem with democracy is that the electors are usualy badly inforrmed and full of others wrong information juged trues because they are said to be ''common knowledge''. I wouldn't want a decision based on the ''will of the peoples'' on the subject of the H1N1 flu or the N.K. , the solution would be probably oversimplist andmont likely wrong.
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