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Old 2013-03-19, 19:39   Link #27061
creb
Hiding Under Your Bed
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
It's always interesting to see how the Court aligns on issues like this one. In this case, Breyer wrote the decision and Ginsberg wrote the dissent. She was joined by Scalia and Kennedy, hardly her usual allies. Kennedy is usually depicted as the "median Justice" on most traditional left-right votes. He was decisive on Citizens United and may also be the swing vote when the Defense of Marriage Act comes up later this term. Thomas is usually attached at the hip to Scalia but voted in favor of the doctrine in this case.

While a unidimensional model of political conflict explains a lot about American politics, there are some issues that do not fit that model and create unusual alignments like this one.
Or, in other words, people-even those you dislike-are rarely just a caricature?
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Old 2013-03-19, 19:39   Link #27062
ganbaru
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
Cyprus lawmakers reject bank tax; bailout in disarray
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...92G03I20130319
Did somebody really thought than this bank tax was a good idea ?
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Old 2013-03-19, 20:01   Link #27063
SeijiSensei
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creb View Post
Or, in other words, people-even those you dislike-are rarely just a caricature?
I'm not sure how you drew that conclusion from my remarks, unless you are reacting to my characterization of Thomas. I believe most studies of pairwise agreement among the Justices find that Thomas and Scalia have the highest degree of concurrence.
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Old 2013-03-19, 22:22   Link #27064
Irenicus
Le fou, c'est moi
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Cyprus lawmakers reject bank tax; bailout in disarray
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...92G03I20130319
Did somebody really thought than this bank tax was a good idea ?
[Tinfoil hat]

Leaders of the European Union realizes the wisdom of the Icelandic approach, but, unable or unwilling to publicly reverse their previous foolish pro-banking, harmful austerity measures, decided to provoke the Cypriots by an obscenely outrageous demand and force the government of Cyprus into an untenable position where they'd have to do exactly what the people of Iceland did. Once it all burns down and gets rebuilt, Cyprus will, like Iceland, become another piece of fine marble in the foundation for the new European reconstruction.

[/Tinfoil hat]

One can dream...?
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Old 2013-03-20, 00:29   Link #27065
Ithekro
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Which half of Cyprus?
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Old 2013-03-20, 00:43   Link #27066
Irenicus
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 25
Southern, the "Greek" half.

Although of course the issue is more complicated than evil EU bankers ruining it for good Cypriots -- Cyprus and Cypriot banks serve as one of those "tax haven islands" for quite a few rich characters and Russian oligarchs, paying interest far above global market average (lots of assets = lots to be lost or bailed out). But the people of Cyprus can choose to perpetuate the monster and take other huge loans later to serve future crises, constantly hitting the hardest on the normal people, or let it burn and build something more sustainable from the ashes (and watch the filthy rich squirm at the loss).
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Old 2013-03-20, 03:06   Link #27067
kuroishinigami
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Nice idea, but you left out the part where some of those people get shot to death and the collateral damage to the honest semi-rich to rich people who get assaulted and maybe raped by angry violent mobs(because let's face it, angry mobs is not exactly the most result-focused entity there is). Or are you saying the end justifies the means?

Last edited by kuroishinigami; 2013-03-20 at 03:10. Reason: Misunderstood the point of above poster
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Old 2013-03-20, 04:10   Link #27068
Irenicus
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Someone has to pay and shoulder the pain, whether if it's directed far offshores or in the homeland.

Iceland survived spectacularly well and is now a success case against the neoliberal norm of basically being held hostage by the financiers, but it did so by allowing its banks to fail and for foreigners involved in their financial system to take the hit.

Still, it is now free, in a fuller meaning of the word than we've come to expect, and despite the threats made by the big money guys at the height of the Iceland crisis that nobody will lend to them again for a decade, the bankers and financiers of mighty continental Europe have since changed their tune completely.

Cyprus doesn't have much of a choice. Either it takes the EU loan and burden itself with a huge debt for its size to save the oversized banking industry (which is hilariously irresponsible -- even now, the US is well on its way to another financial speculative bubble). In other words, letting ordinary Cypriots take the burden for a generation. Or it chooses not to, destroying local savings and foreign investment, causing short term havoc, but acquiring a clean sheet to start anew, which hopefully will be used wisely this time.

I figured, if someone's going to be hurt, might as well make the rich pay, too. Not the nicest of sentiment, but it's only human.

_____________

And in any case, regardless of the intentions of the EU authorities, which I actually think is pretty benign, or the culpability of the Cypriot government, which I think is actually pretty damning (the common people have little to do with it, as usual, but make no mistake people got rich off being the tax haven scheme and the ridiculously high deposit interest), their plan for the bailout deal is positively insane. The single most important element that holds together the great wispy cloud of lies and hopes that is the modern financial system is Trust. People *trust*. Without trust, all things fall apart.

So the brightest minds of Europe (those not quite smart enough for CERN, at least) decide among themselves in Brussels and Frankfurt that the best thing to do is to violate one of the very key pillars of that Trust, and propose to levy a tax on the guaranteed savings of people. Worse, the guaranteed savings of people a fifth of the typical EU standard deposit guarantee limit (which Cyprus shares) of EUR 100,000 [though it must be admitted that this lowering of limit for the intended levy may be an internal suggestion from the Cypriot government -- but even then the EU should promptly discard the potential deal].

Losing it all to a large scale bank failure and invoking the existing deposit guarantee system in the European Union (or even admitting that Cyprus cannot fulfill its obligations and therefore oops sorry about your life savings) is actually far better for the maintenance of trust than the act, or even the perception of a financial authority's intention to act, against that trust. That trust is what Iceland sacrificed on the bloody altar to free itself (though it was small enough to weather the worst, the pain was distributed internationally, and its people had the political will to rebuild); that is what the EU which closed ranks during the start of the great crisis tried so hard to maintain, and now they're promptly shooting themselves in the foot over some ten billion bailout deal. Seriously wtf. Big money, but certainly not worth risking the Euro's very integrity over in a potential snowball effect.

Next thing you know, Spain faces a bank run, Italy faces a bank run, and the Euro collapses not because Cyprus needs a bailout or withdraw from the Euro, but because that insane proposal spooked everybody and ruined the all-important illusion of someone, somewhere being actually at the end of the great rainbow road with all the pots of gold.

Of course, that's a worst case scenario and a lot of things could and should go right before it goes wrong, but central bank leaders are supposed to be prepared for, and prevent, not provoke worst case scenarios.

Hence the silly tinfoil hat act, "Maybe they figured they really do want to burn it all down lol "
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Old 2013-03-20, 04:23   Link #27069
kuroishinigami
Ava courtesy of patchy
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Nothing funny when you're on the opposite end of the riot, as in someone who get rich from hard work yet has to suffer the repercussion from the riot's collateral damage. Easy to say someone has to pay, but are you willing to be the one to pay when the situation arise even when you have nothing to do with the said matter at hand? Sure, Iceland might seems all nice right now, but that's because the riot is fairly tame and they don't mention the innocent victim who might be scarred for life.

The end result might seems good and all, but are you basically saying screw the victims, it's for the good of everyone? Like I mention above, are you saying that the end justifies the means? If you do, might as well put a tracking collar on all of us to prevent unsolved crime Don't get me wrong, I do believe what they do is wrong, but violent revolution is not the right answer IMO. If you have the willingness to do it, might as well do it non violent way like Gandhi

Last edited by kuroishinigami; 2013-03-20 at 04:37.
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Old 2013-03-20, 04:28   Link #27070
Irenicus
Le fou, c'est moi
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Age: 25
Let me put it very simply: a riot is pithy compared to a generation of enslavement.

And the real damages of Iceland was distributed across a very large global field, not a single riot in Reykjavik. That's the real price for Icelandic freedom.

It's got nothing to do with end justifies the means or tracking collars. That's just random.

Rather, my thinking is very economic: opportunity cost. What did Iceland gain in that freedom compared to the damages it allowed to happen to those with assets in the failed banks? What would Iceland lose if it, like almost every other country facing the global crisis, allowed itself to be held hostage by the banksters?

Likewise, what are the choices and what their futures look like to the Cypriots?
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Old 2013-03-20, 04:49   Link #27071
kuroishinigami
Ava courtesy of patchy
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Again, you're thinking on too big of a picture and doesn't realize the suffering of the victim who have nothing to do with the situation except being born in the wrong time at the wrong place. I have been in a similar situation before, and although the result is very good now in the long term in economic sense(and arguably might actually be necessary), the scar that some of my acquintance got at that time is still not healed even now(and the only thing they're in the wrong for is being lucky enough to be rich through hard work in a country with corrupt government while most other can't) and they still can't bring themselves to return to the country. In an ideal world, the riot will only be directed toward the perpetrator, but too bad that in this not so ideal world, whenever there is riot, there will be collateral damage to the innocent victim.

What you're saying is basically, once again, who cares if some innocent people get shoved down the ravine as long as the bridge get build in the end and everyone can cross the ravine in the long term, hence my collar comment(who cares if the government can track your every movement if we can reduce crime rate in the long term, it's just minor inconvenience for the greater good). Basically, you're justifying the means with the end just because the damage is done to a small portion of innocent people while the gain is for the good of all. Let's reverse the situation for a bit. Hypothetically, how would you feel if you and your loved one has to suffer for a revolution. Do you think you can still say at that time that the revolution is for the best if it's for the greater good? Because I certainly can't.

Once again, I do believe change is needed, but violence is not the answer. Do something like Gandhi and don't involve the innocent people who want nothing to do with said revolution.
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Old 2013-03-20, 05:33   Link #27072
Dhomochevsky
temporary safeguard
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
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Age: 33
You can not really compare the banking situation in Cyprus with that in Spain, Italy and so on.

As you said, Cyprus is a tax haven and they were paying really high interest rates.
Something like 4% to 5%.

For comparison, the interest rate in Germany is about 0.4%, while the inflation rate is somewhere around 2%. This is about the same in other european nations. We non-Cyprus europeans are losing our banked money continuously all the time, due to sub inflation interest rates. And for some reason we are not yet lynching the bankers (shouldn't we start soonish?).

But now for some reason, the people in Cyprus are on the barricades, when even if they all lose 10% of their money, they would still come out ahead of any other european, if they had their money banked in Cyprus for 3+ years. This seems a bit hypocrite to me.

Add to this, that the non-tax haven europeans had to use a huge amount of their tax money, to bail out banks and uphold the banking system. A banking system that Cyprus greatly profits from. This too is money lost for us, even though it did not directly disappear from our bank accounts (it never got there in the first place).
Not so much lost for the people who used Cyprus as a tax haven, because well... that's the point of tax havens right? To not pay much taxes.

So with this in mind, I think it's understandable that I am not feeling a lot of sympathy to the people who have their money in Cyprus banks and are screaming 'EVIL EU' right now...
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Old 2013-03-20, 06:34   Link #27073
Bri
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
Cyprus lawmakers reject bank tax; bailout in disarray
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...92G03I20130319
Did somebody really thought than this bank tax was a good idea ?
It's the only way for governments of northern European countries to make the bailout acceptable for their taxpayers. The media would go in a frenzy if a tax heaven gets an easy bailout. With the EU playing hardball, there is a decent chance Russia will be forced to step in to save their interests.
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Old 2013-03-20, 07:34   Link #27074
Zakoo
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Location: Gensokyo
They won the first round of poker, BCE decided to continue giving paper.

The technocrate of eu are sometimes funny, it s still a wonder if they think. Or maybe Greece and Cyprus a real lab to test the limit of acceptance of the people.
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Old 2013-03-20, 08:01   Link #27075
SaintessHeart
Ehh? EEEEHHHHHH?
 
 
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Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
They won the first round of poker, BCE decided to continue giving paper.

The technocrate of eu are sometimes funny, it s still a wonder if they think. Or maybe Greece and Cyprus a real lab to test the limit of acceptance of the people.
And the next time the Germans go to service the Greece Leopard tanks, the test drive will be down their streets.
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Old 2013-03-20, 09:16   Link #27076
willx
Nyaaan~~
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 31
/smokes cigar like a fat cat banker

I'm absolutely loving this chatter on Cyprus. Everyone has an opinion! Everyone believes their opinion is valuable! Everyone is an expert! I'm very amused to see what Russia is going to do.

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Old 2013-03-20, 09:58   Link #27077
Bri
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
/smokes cigar like a fat cat banker

I'm absolutely loving this chatter on Cyprus. Everyone has an opinion! Everyone believes their opinion is valuable! Everyone is an expert! I'm very amused to see what Russia is going to do.
Welcome to the world of economists.
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Old 2013-03-20, 10:10   Link #27078
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post
Welcome to the world of economists.
Well a trader once told me : in this world, there is no shortage of money to be made. <pause> From other people.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-03-20, 10:26   Link #27079
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Well a trader once told me : in this world, there is no shortage of money to be made. <pause> From other people.
Trading is like poker. It's not about understanding the game, it's about playing the players.
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Old 2013-03-20, 10:40   Link #27080
RRW
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Singapore’s Lessons for an Unequal America

Quote:
Inequality has been rising in most countries around the world, but it has played out in different ways across countries and regions. The United States, it is increasingly recognized, has the sad distinction of being the most unequal advanced country, though the income gap has also widened to a lesser extent, in Britain, Japan, Canada and Germany. Of course, the situation is even worse in Russia, and some developing countries in Latin America and Africa. But this is a club of which we should not be proud to be a member.

Some big countries — Brazil, Indonesia and Argentina — have become more equal in recent years, and other countries, like Spain, were on that trajectory until the economic crisis of 2007-8.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...erica/?src=xps
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