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Old 2013-04-02, 16:47   Link #27281
TooPurePureBoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
The German army has been greatly reduced on a regular basis after the re-unification and this trend does not seem to have come to an end just yet. The Cold War West German army was much bigger than the current army of the unified Germany. The only thing that changed is that it has been used for combat missions abroad instead of only sitting at home waiting for the Russian to attack. If anything, Germany is descending in that list.
I also think you are mistaken if you believe Germany more freely interpreting their constitution to take part in global missions did them any good - they don't really have much to gain in Afghanistan, Africa or the Balkans. It only costs money, men and sympathy (making Germany a target for terror) and attracting of Asylum seekers though the connections on the foreign front. It would have been way easier to just continue letting the other western countries/U.S. deal with all this while playing the remorseful sinner that learned its lesson.
The only positive thing for Germany is the experience gain of the missions - a few small ability gaps have been closed in turn. (e.g. finally buying refuelers)
Not trying to be a jerk here but shouldn't they actually be remorseful rather than playing at it?

Not too worried about it really but I find it kind of worrisome (sorry fellow animesuki posters who are German) that Germany has been allowed to rebuild to such a high level already (that also depends on the accuracy of the list posted above). I mean speaking in the context of history ....not exactly a good thing for Europe in the past. That said they are already doing great compared to most other if not all EU countries so they don't have any need for a military move nor have I read or heard of any overly militaristic political rhetoric so relax if you think I'm trying to accuse you of anything Germany.

Just think it's weird that world isn't a little more hesitant to kind of sit back while they rebuild that fast. Meh, just some not too well thought out thoughts that I felt like putting out there.
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Old 2013-04-02, 16:48   Link #27282
Dhomochevsky
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Afaik Germany does not have such an 'article 9', or anything like that.
The use of military force is simply restricted by the fact, that the constitution only lists two potential uses for the military:
1. peace - in case of catastrophic event, or state of emergency, become active within german borders
2 defence - if german territory is under direct attack, or such an attack is imminent, use any means nescessary to stop the threat. After this is done, fall back to peace mode.

For any other use, there is simply no legal basis, so it can not be done.
However, apparently laws can build such a legal basis. For example the NATO pact seems to change the requirement to have german territory attacked in order to go to defence mode. Now any attack on any NATO member counts just the same.

With NATO considering terroristic attacks and now even 'cyberwarfare' as attacks worthy of a defence case, I'd say anything goes.

I assume any other NATO country should have at least that much of an option to use 'offensive' force, otherwise they would not be able to join NATO.
Is this why Japan is only 'an important ally'?
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Old 2013-04-02, 16:49   Link #27283
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy View Post
Not trying to be a jerk here but shouldn't they actually be remorseful rather than playing at it?

Not too worried about it really but I find it kind of worrisome (sorry fellow animesuki posters who are German) that Germany has been allowed to rebuild to such a high level already (that also depends on the accuracy of the list posted above). I mean speaking in the context of history ....not exactly a good thing for Europe in the past. That said they are already doing great compared to most other if not all EU countries so they don't have any need for a military move nor have I read or heard of any overly militaristic political rhetoric so relax if you think I'm trying to accuse you of anything Germany.

Just think it's weird that world isn't a little more hesitant to kind of sit back while they rebuild that fast. Meh, just some not too well thought out thoughts that I felt like putting out there.
France did more warmongering than Germany ever did. Should we be afraid of France?
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Old 2013-04-02, 16:56   Link #27284
TooPurePureBoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
France did more warmongering than Germany ever did. Should we be afraid of France?
Not gonna claim to know the answer to that in a present day sense but I would guess no just as I would assume the same of Germany.

Germany lost WWII about 70 years ago. It hasn't even been a hundred years since they almost conquered the world through heinous acts of aggression (though I'm sure they have their own perspective). That's not a lot of generations removed from thinking you are the chosen race....

I actually am being a bit tounge in cheek about this. I see Germany as a present day ally and a very sane and level headed country for the most part. I just think for what they did in the past they should not have been allowed to rebuild that quickly if anything just as penance.
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Last edited by TooPurePureBoy; 2013-04-02 at 17:00. Reason: err needed to read over my post more lol
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Old 2013-04-02, 17:12   Link #27285
sneaker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
Afaik Germany does not have such an 'article 9', or anything like that.

The use of military force is simply restricted by the fact, that the constitution only lists two potential uses for the military:
1. peace - in case of catastrophic event, or state of emergency, become active within german borders
2 defence - if german territory is under direct attack, or such an attack is imminent, use any means nescessary to stop the threat. After this is done, fall back to peace mode.

For any other use, there is simply no legal basis, so it can not be done.
However, apparently laws can build such a legal basis. For example the NATO pact seems to change the requirement to have german territory attacked in order to go to defence mode. Now any attack on any NATO member counts just the same.

With NATO considering terroristic attacks and now even 'cyberwarfare' as attacks worthy of a defence case, I'd say anything goes.

I assume any other NATO country should have at least that much of an option to use 'offensive' force, otherwise they would not be able to join NATO.
Is this why Japan is only 'an important ally'?
There is also article 26 of the German constitution which forbids any kind of aggressive wars.
The German attack on Yugoslavia at the end of the 90s was done without any prior aggression against Germany or any of its NATO allies, so the laws are indeed being interpreted very broadly. And this is just one example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TooPurePureBoy View Post
I actually am being a bit tounge in cheek about this. I see Germany as a present day ally and a very sane and level headed country for the most part. I just think for what they did in the past they should not have been allowed to rebuild that quickly if anything just as penance.
The quick rearmament of Germany, only a decade after WWII (ignoring military like police units founded even earlier), was more seen as a necessity of the Cold War than anything else. Europe was divided into two with the border going through Germany, so the western nations made Western Germany arm in order to fight against the Warsaw Pact and the Russians made Eastern Germany arm in order to fight the Western Allies.
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Old 2013-04-02, 17:15   Link #27286
Zakoo
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Though I will concede euro is a bit in a crisis, you shouldn't underestimate the friendship that was builld during the two countries in those 70 years, France and Germany are two faces of the same coin, we love each other so much it could become yaoi nation.

Though nazism was aweful and tainted germany History, thinking it's still present in their society is quite ... hmm false. Actually I would like sometime Germany to talk on international issues as they don't do it because of their past, it would be good if we had more union.
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Old 2013-04-02, 17:29   Link #27287
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
Though I will concede euro is a bit in a crisis, you shouldn't underestimate the friendship that was builld during the two countries in those 70 years, France and Germany are two faces of the same coin, we love each other so much it could become yaoi nation.
Haven't you paid attention to all the scapegoating? Heck, "I won't bow down to Germany" was a campaign promise.
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Old 2013-04-02, 17:33   Link #27288
Ithekro
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The British probably still play one off the other like they've been doing for centuries in Europe. Just not doing it with a military balance of power anymore.
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Old 2013-04-02, 21:58   Link #27289
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Well, there are two reasons for why I support Japan keeping Article 9:

1. Japan is having enough troubles without spending money on a military.
2. Korea needs Japan as much as Japan needs Korea. Even with reunification Korea will be needing a large military for quite a long time, and given how the ROKAF have always been able to get more out with less money, it's better that Japan lets the Koreans do most of the heavy lifting in exchange for economic focus.
Heavy lifting as in? Cross training and the like?
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Old 2013-04-02, 22:00   Link #27290
Seitsuki
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To be fair I've noticed Koreans tend to be the buffest Asians out there.
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Old 2013-04-02, 22:09   Link #27291
willx
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Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
To be fair I've noticed Koreans tend to be the buffest Asians out there.
Ha! They are itsy bitsy skinny men! /flex
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Old 2013-04-02, 22:10   Link #27292
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
There is also article 26 of the German constitution which forbids any kind of aggressive wars.
The German attack on Yugoslavia at the end of the 90s was done without any prior aggression against Germany or any of its NATO allies, so the laws are indeed being interpreted very broadly. And this is just one example.

The quick rearmament of Germany, only a decade after WWII (ignoring military like police units founded even earlier), was more seen as a necessity of the Cold War than anything else. Europe was divided into two with the border going through Germany, so the western nations made Western Germany arm in order to fight against the Warsaw Pact and the Russians made Eastern Germany arm in order to fight the Western Allies.
There you go. The Germans didn't hesitate in going in too much when sh!t was getting real in Bosnia and Kosovo.

At the time when the US wanted Japan to stay out of the spread of communism, especially with China, North Korea and the USSR in the area, you'd believe that efforts for a quick Japanese rearmament would have been put in place. Plus with that insular mentality, you'd believe Japan would be willing to add a few extra spikes against the communist threat. It was also a necessity for Japan to have forces ready considering that both North Korea and the USSR were quite the most hostile countries towards Japan. However, it's the lack of commitment from the Japanese government in that domain for decades that puzzles me and it seems politicians are only waking up now in face of the current situation in the region.
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Last edited by KiraYamatoFan; 2013-04-02 at 22:29.
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Old 2013-04-02, 22:16   Link #27293
NoemiChan
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Only PH, China can solve territorial row

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Old 2013-04-02, 22:59   Link #27294
Ithekro
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Until relatively recently, there hasn't been much of a naval threat in the Pacific to justify the Japanese (or Korean for that matter) naval forces. (In the 1960s and 1970s the Japanese naval forces were kind of a joke, or at least thought poorly of by the populous) The Soviet Pacific Fleet was usually not all that large and had serious problems with being able to leave port due to ice and that all routes out of Vladivostok are covered by choke points the US and Japanese can use to keep the Soviets in. Aside from their submarines, which the Japanese Defense Forces were designed to counter.

The increasing if the Chinese Navy has shifted things a bit along with North Korea expanding their naval forces as well. Prior to that, the Japanese would be content to send interceptors and anti-aircraft missiles at any problems flying in from China, North Korea, or Russia and let the Americans deal with the counter-attack.
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Old 2013-04-03, 00:11   Link #27295
willx
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Outside of the U.S., India is the biggest power in the pacific with a working aircraft carrier and actual history of operations.
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Old 2013-04-03, 00:15   Link #27296
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Outside of the U.S., India is the biggest power in the pacific with a working aircraft carrier and actual history of operations.
I realize this is completely stereotyping, but why do I imagine an Indian aircraft carrier as an ongoing Indian music video with synchronized dance moves on the flight deck by a bunch of happy men commandeered by an attractive flight controller?

Can't get it out of my head.
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Old 2013-04-03, 00:25   Link #27297
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I realize this is completely stereotyping, but why do I imagine an Indian aircraft carrier as an ongoing Indian music video with synchronized dance moves on the flight deck by a bunch of happy men commandeered by an attractive flight controller?

Can't get it out of my head.
You Americans did the same thing in Hot Shots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
France did more warmongering than Germany ever did. Should we be afraid of France?
There are two things they could do :

1. Cut the supply of authentic maid costumes to the rest of the world.
2. Make the French Foreign Legion dress in maid costumes and dance on MTV, burning the eyes of everyone in the world.
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Old 2013-04-03, 01:12   Link #27298
Der Langrisser
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North Korea pressures South by halting entry to industrial zone

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...93002620130403

Now, here's your daily dose of crazy North Korea !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
France did more warmongering than Germany ever did. Should we be afraid of France?
Well, we still have nukes...
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Old 2013-04-03, 01:23   Link #27299
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Langrisser View Post
North Korea pressures South by halting entry to industrial zone

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...93002620130403
What is next? NK bombing said industrial complex to "remove capitalist corruption that endangers our youth"?
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Old 2013-04-03, 02:44   Link #27300
Dhomochevsky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
There you go. The Germans didn't hesitate in going in too much when sh!t was getting real in Bosnia and Kosovo.

At the time when the US wanted Japan to stay out of the spread of communism, especially with China, North Korea and the USSR in the area, you'd believe that efforts for a quick Japanese rearmament would have been put in place. Plus with that insular mentality, you'd believe Japan would be willing to add a few extra spikes against the communist threat. It was also a necessity for Japan to have forces ready considering that both North Korea and the USSR were quite the most hostile countries towards Japan. However, it's the lack of commitment from the Japanese government in that domain for decades that puzzles me and it seems politicians are only waking up now in face of the current situation in the region.
There is quite the big difference between post-war Germany and post-war Japan.

Modern Germany sees itself in the tradition of the democracy of the Weimar Republic. The Nazi occupation (sic) is seen as a short adjournment and it was them who started the war.
So the problem isn't identified in Germany's potential for offensive power, it is found in the shortcomings of the Weimar Republic, which allowed undemocratic evil to come into power and then misuse that military potential.
From the point of view of the current big political parties, this actually holds truth considering how they ended up when Nazis came into power.
But this is also a general sentiment of the population.
As a result of this, the main focus of the german constitution is to make sure these flaws are fixed and Germany will always stay a true democracy forevermore.
If only this can be assured, then a war like WWII is not possible and such a democracy can also be trusted with military power again.

So if you see german politicians admiting to Germany's past war crimes, where other countries would rather try to put the blanket over it, this is not because we are somehow more mature about it.
It is simply because of the disconnection to the Nazi regime. Crimes commited by Nazis and not by the germans are easy to admit after all. If however you try to get the same results when adressing crimes made by institutions that do have continuity in modern Germany, like the regular army (not SS) for example, you will suddenly meet a lot more resistance and denying.


Japan on the other hand was handling the responsibility completely different. There was apparently a strong desire for continuity, to show that pre-war Japan is the same as the Japan that started the war, is still the same as modern Japan.
Keeping the emporer in place, not braking with any traditions.

So I guess they had to tackle the problem of military power differently and more carefully, considering they were also maintaing that they themselves had not changed at the same time.
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