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Old 2013-04-16, 21:59   Link #27561
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Afghanistan isn't our country, so we'd GTFO as far as I'm concerned
Given that the organization will still exist and continue to operate in Afghanistan, that's a solution?
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Old 2013-04-16, 22:09   Link #27562
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Now that the FBI apparently has gone inside some dude's house for clues and got out with boxes of evidence, is there anything new about it? Who the hell is living there?
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Old 2013-04-16, 22:14   Link #27563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Given that the organization will still exist and continue to operate in Afghanistan, that's a solution?
I was under the impression that going after "bin Laden" would also imply going after his underlings and organization. What should have been a much more precise, focused police action ballooned into something big enough that you have people here talking about it like it's WW3 and under the impression that instead of just a few radicals, the entire Islamic world is out to get us.

Quote:
Have a sham trial than have him executed which in turn angers his followers who than try and get revenge?

Death only begets more death, it's human nature.
Given what happened IRL, I guess they'd just kill him on the spot and throw his body out to the sharks.

Also, you're expecting Bush in 2001 to simply say "what bin Laden did was bad but we're going to exercise restraint and not do anything"? Like that's realistic.
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Old 2013-04-16, 23:05   Link #27564
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Some think that is what Gore would have done.
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Old 2013-04-17, 00:37   Link #27565
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
And here I shall repeat once more. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and we all end up with no eye and no tooth
I guess we should've gave bin laden a "thank you" card instead, or maybe apologize to Japan for all that munition they spent after they bombed Pearl Harbor

Quote:
I mean, I can't understand why war was unavoidable after 9/11. There is an alternative, for example, strengthen your nation security, try to win over Afghanistan's people, and use them to weed out the so called terrorist
the first is an impossible pipe dream, the second is an even more impossible pipe dream. How are you going to "win over" the people of the Taliban Afghanistan? That's like saying we should try to win over the people of North Korea to get rid of Kim Il Un.

There's optimism, and then there's being blind to reality.

Quote:
I guess US military thinks they know better about general strategy than Sun Tzu when they decide to bomb the whole country
Certainly far more than you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Death only begets more death, it's human nature.
I guess you're in the let's send bin laden a thank you card camp

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
Now that the FBI apparently has gone inside some dude's house for clues and got out with boxes of evidence, is there anything new about it? Who the hell is living there?
It's the apartment of the saudi student that was hurt, they've already said that he's no longer a suspect.
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Old 2013-04-17, 00:58   Link #27566
james0246
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This discussion is becoming too glib and jingoistic. This is a trying and confusing time, but responding rashly or too emotionally in regards to others posts helps no one and simply stifles discussion. Please everyone calm down and think before you respond.
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Old 2013-04-17, 01:19   Link #27567
kuroishinigami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
I guess we should've gave bin laden a "thank you" card instead, or maybe apologize to Japan for all that munition they spent after they bombed Pearl Harbor



the first is an impossible pipe dream, the second is an even more impossible pipe dream. How are you going to "win over" the people of the Taliban Afghanistan? That's like saying we should try to win over the people of North Korea to get rid of Kim Il Un.

There's optimism, and then there's being blind to reality.



Certainly far more than you do.
Certainly attacking the poster is your idea of discussion, but I'll digress in retiliating with another insult.

Let's just talk about your response.

Let's see what the military attack result is :

1. More potential terrorist member(people who lost their family member as civillian casualty during the attack).
2. Catching the leader but unable to sweep all the terrorist group
3. Buying more resentment from most Islamic group
4. Shouldering huge debt from the cost of the war
5. PTSD for lots of war veteran

But yeah, it's much better than saying thank you like you said I guess huh(which is your word, not mine). I guess you prefer all the party to lose their eyes and tooth instead of trying to stop the casualty from increasing. And don't talk about Japan attack during WW2. The context is much too different. The Japanese was intent on conquering US at that time, the Taliban does not.

As for my second point, I'm talking about win over the so called civillian instead of the terrorist force, and by winning over I mean to say convince them that you're not the enemy like the proaganda in their country says. Terrorist are only hard to beat because the civillian is in support of them(other case in point, Vietnam). Once you win the heart of people, it's only a matter of time before the taliban lose their support. Will it take a long time? Sure! Will it be harder to do? Naturally. But still, the result you get from such action will also last longer instead of drawing even more enmity.

If you ask how should you do it, how about by starting to understand cultural difference and respect them? I'm sorry to say, you can't just expect to come to someone's house and says, "stop doing your tradition right this instance" and expect people to comply right away.

ED : Ninja'ed by mod XD. I'll drop the discussion about this here. I won't erase my response since I already use my time to write it and it doesn't feel too provocative, and I will still read the response to this post, but I won't counter with another post about this topic anymore.
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Old 2013-04-17, 01:32   Link #27568
Haak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
No, it is the only idea that works short of completely winning over the people. There is no soft patting of the situation: It's either you work to completely stamp out the opposition, or you completely win over the people so the insurgency (broad definition here) cannot survive. That is the core of counterinsurgency, and those that ignore it will always be burned.

The US managed to win over the people of Iraq, hence why they didn't need to go down the violent route. With Afghanistan, the US managed to go neither path.
Well I'd have to disagree with that but in any case, the opinion was in fact forming in America that the former option was proving to be counter-productive to their efforts, hence why they developed the Field Manual on Counterinsurgency which stressed the role of civilians and use of appropriate levels of force.

From a personal perspective, I think the violent route is only effective if you're willing to commit to massacring a lot of people which is something I'm obviously against anyway.

[EDIT]

Just to be clear this should, in no way, be taken as related to the Boston bombing incident. People will care more about other parts of the worlds than others. This is just natural.
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Last edited by Haak; 2013-04-17 at 01:42.
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Old 2013-04-17, 01:35   Link #27569
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
Certainly attacking the poster is your idea of discussion, but I'll digress in retiliating with another insult.
I don't see where I made any personal attacks against you. In any case, if what I wrote constituted as insults, then you (and many others) certainly haven't stopped "insulting" the US and its military for awhile now.

Quote:
And don't talk about Japan attack during WW2. The context is much too different. The Japanese was intent on conquering US at that time, the Taliban does not.
Japan never had the force nor the manpower to invade, much less "conquer" the US. Pearl Harbor was solely aimed at destroying US naval power in the Pacific to take away the US's ability to counter Japanese advance in Asia.

Quote:
As for my second point, I'm talking about win over the so called civillian instead of the terrorist force, and by winning over I mean to say convince them that you're not the enemy like the proaganda in their country says.
I'm waiting to hear your plan to do this. Taliban owned the country, just like the Kim regime owns North Korea. Really, please elaborate how you'd do this.

Quote:
Terrorist are only hard to beat because the civillian is in support of them(other case in point, Vietnam). Once you win the heart of people, it's only a matter of time before the taliban lose their support. Will it take a long time? Sure! Will it be harder to do? Naturally. But still, the result you get from such action will also last longer instead of drawing even more enmity.
I'm sure the civilians will be jumping at the chance to express their pro-US stance while the Talibans are waiting outside to chop off the head of anyone who does.

Quote:
If you ask how should you do it, how about by starting to understand cultural difference and respect them? I'm sorry to say, you can't just expect to come to someone's house and says, "stop doing your tradition right this instance" and expect people to comply right away.
Yes, because 9/11 happened because we didn't understand and respect the Afghan's culture.
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Old 2013-04-17, 01:50   Link #27570
kuroishinigami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
I don't see where I made any personal attacks against you.
Certainly far more than you do.

This, but I might be overly sensitive and overreact too. Sorry about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
In any case, if what I wrote constituted as insults, then you (and many others) certainly haven't stopped "insulting" the US and its military for awhile now.
Probably, and I apologize for that, should have worded my post better. I guess my disagreement about the action US military(at least the higher up) and government took in regards of this matter gets the better of me.

As promised, I won't drag the discussion any longer, just want to apologized if my post seems to insult the US and its military since that's not what I intended. Still disagree that the attack to Afghanistan is the best course of action though.
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Old 2013-04-17, 02:04   Link #27571
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
Certainly far more than you do.

This, but I might be overly sensitive and overreact too. Sorry about that.


Probably, and I apologize for that, should have worded my post better. I guess my disagreement about the action US military(at least the higher up) and government took in regards of this matter gets the better of me.

As promised, I won't drag the discussion any longer, just want to apologized if my post seems to insult the US and its military since that's not what I intended. Still disagree that the attack to Afghanistan is the best course of action though.
Which I have no problem with, Afghanistan is a messy ball of crap that is merely a part of a much wider political mess, and not everyone will agree to as what the best course of action was.

What I find incredibly frustrating is how some people seemed to jump at the chance at using what happened in Boston so they can hop on their soap box and go"haha, serves you right". You probably got some of that "collateral damage", and for that I too apologize
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Old 2013-04-17, 07:51   Link #27572
demonix
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Last respects paid to Margaret Thatcher

Quote:
PM David Cameron said it was a "fitting tribute" to a major figure.
I wouldn't call a 10,000,000 burden on the British taxpayer a fitting tribute in times like this.
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Old 2013-04-17, 08:03   Link #27573
AmeNoJaku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonix View Post
Last respects paid to Margaret Thatcher

I wouldn't call a 10,000,000 burden on the British taxpayer a fitting tribute in times like this.
This charade was the most miserable show conservatives universally could salivate for
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Old 2013-04-17, 08:08   Link #27574
RRW
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Same-sex marriage law passed in New Zealand.

Quote:
Parliament has just passed a law legalising gay marriage, 77 votes to 44, amid loud shows of jubilation from the floor and the gallery.

The declaration of the vote was followed by a waiata.

MPs held a conscience vote on the private member's bill sponsored by gay Labour MP Louisa Wall.

The bill will take effect in mid August and comes 27 years after New Zealand decriminalised homosexuality.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10878200
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Old 2013-04-17, 10:38   Link #27575
GDB
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So, right after a Senator received a poison laced letter and the Boston bombing, the Secret Service has intercepted a letter containing a suspicious substance to the President.
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Old 2013-04-17, 10:48   Link #27576
Terrestrial Dream
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Finally, Sam and Frodo can get married.
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Old 2013-04-17, 10:50   Link #27577
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
I'm sure the civilians will be jumping at the chance to express their pro-US stance while the Talibans are waiting outside to chop off the head of anyone who does.

Yes, because 9/11 happened because we didn't understand and respect the Afghan's culture.
This two lines are probably the only sensible ones I have read since the last two pages of "Show me the money" challenges.

I have been holding back to get into this argument, however it seems that many here do not give a hoot about the nature of political strive and factionalism when combined with the culture of violence. There are things to be noted like penetration of societies by such radical forces and ideology, intelligence-gathering capability of both sides, acceptance of each faction's ideology by various divisions of society, methods of influencing the citizens, etc.

Some factions use violence to draw people to their side through fear, while others dangle a carrot to do so. The basic concepts of leadership and motivation under business management studies apply the same way; no different from managing a big company where each department has a head that vies for the position of CEO, and has to deal with internal turmoil and external competition.

All these are generated by either fear or greed. And I can say that be it OBL, Kim Jong Un or even the prepartrator behind the Boston Bombing, all their underlying reasons and psychological factor either point towards one of the two.



So are we helping with this discussion by reaching an understanding with each other, or are we simply mudslinging to prove that our ideas are right?
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Old 2013-04-17, 11:37   Link #27578
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
So, right after a Senator received a poison laced letter and the Boston bombing, the Secret Service has intercepted a letter containing a suspicious substance to the President.
The more this thing keeps going, the more clues are pointing towards white supremacists and/or anti-government right-wing extremists. Man, I hate that kind of scum, especially after Oklahoma City.
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Old 2013-04-17, 11:42   Link #27579
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan View Post
The more this thing keeps going, the more clues are pointing towards white supremacists and/or anti-government right-wing extremists. Man, I hate that kind of scum, especially after Oklahoma City.
There might be more people for you to blame.
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Old 2013-04-17, 11:42   Link #27580
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by demonix View Post
Last respects paid to Margaret Thatcher



I wouldn't call a 10,000,000 burden on the British taxpayer a fitting tribute in times like this.
I would personally say it's about time the ungrateful brats pay due respect.
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