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Old 2013-05-19, 09:27   Link #28441
Ledgem
Love Yourself
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Are you saying you are waiting for the old people to die? That's rather... a fatalistic view of things.

And just because it is expected doesn't mean it should be accepted.

If people aren't willing to drop their world view, they are the problem.
You've never heard the saying "progress occurs one death at a time"? An alternative version is "progress occurs one funeral at a time." I can't find who the quote is attributed to nor when it came into being but I'm pretty sure I heard it as a child. One could interpret it in many ways but I think it gets at what TinyRedLeaf said.

If you feel that it's an easy process to change world views then you likely have an open mind, but you also probably don't believe too strongly in anything. These people have based their entire existence around a popular interpretation of the Bible. Telling them to go outside of it would be like flipping all of the colors in the world for them. They're used to seeing things a certain way, and changing that is jarring.
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Old 2013-05-19, 09:41   Link #28442
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
You've never heard the saying "progress occurs one death at a time"? An alternative version is "progress occurs one funeral at a time." I can't find who the quote is attributed to nor when it came into being but I'm pretty sure I heard it as a child. One could interpret it in many ways but I think it gets at what TinyRedLeaf said.

If you feel that it's an easy process to change world views then you likely have an open mind, but you also probably don't believe too strongly in anything. These people have based their entire existence around a popular interpretation of the Bible. Telling them to go outside of it would be like flipping all of the colors in the world for them. They're used to seeing things a certain way, and changing that is jarring.
I am aware how hard it is to change a human's mind.

I just believe that just because something is hard, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
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Old 2013-05-19, 10:18   Link #28443
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I just believe that just because something is hard, doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
The problem here is that some pro-change people have a bigoted view of those that do not support the change.
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Old 2013-05-19, 10:36   Link #28444
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
The problem here is that some pro-change people have a bigoted view of those that do not support the change.
How is that even RELEVANT? If someone refuse to change because they want to hold their belief until they die, how does it matter what others see them as?

"Do not want to change" is not an excuse for anything. It is an emotional desires that has no relevance in reality, it is self delusion. Yes, it is normal to resist change. But if you think that means refusing to change is somehow justified on its own for its own sake, that is foolishness.

There are times to hold your ground, and there are times to change one's mind. But if one is incapable of doing either when the circumstances call for it, it is not for us to enable that inability to move on.
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Old 2013-05-19, 10:43   Link #28445
Ridwan
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What is this change are we talking about ?
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Old 2013-05-19, 10:49   Link #28446
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
What is this change are we talking about ?
Anything and everything that isn't taught by the people in the Middle Ages.

link related.
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-col...-narrow-minded
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Old 2013-05-19, 10:50   Link #28447
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
How is that even RELEVANT? If someone refuse to change because they want to hold their belief until they die, how does it matter what others see them as?

"Do not want to change" is not an excuse for anything. It is an emotional desires that has no relevance in reality, it is self delusion. Yes, it is normal to resist change. But if you think that means refusing to change is somehow justified on its own for its own sake, that is foolishness.

There are times to hold your ground, and there are times to change one's mind. But if one is incapable of doing either when the circumstances call for it, it is not for us to enable that inability to move on.
You said it yourself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If people aren't willing to drop their world view, they are the problem.
Who are you to dictate someone is a problem for not wanting to change? If you cannot understand that, then there is no use in discussing with you.
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Old 2013-05-19, 11:00   Link #28448
Ridwan
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Forcing people to change regardless of what they think contributes to their open-minded-ness and democratic development in general, as Turkey, Russia and China have all demonstrated.
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Old 2013-05-19, 11:37   Link #28449
TinyRedLeaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
How is that even RELEVANT? If someone refuse to change because they want to hold their belief until they die, how does it matter what others see them as?

"Do not want to change" is not an excuse for anything. It is an emotional desires that has no relevance in reality, it is self delusion. Yes, it is normal to resist change. But if you think that means refusing to change is somehow justified on its own for its own sake, that is foolishness.

There are times to hold your ground, and there are times to change one's mind. But if one is incapable of doing either when the circumstances call for it, it is not for us to enable that inability to move on.
Try persuading pro-gun people why more guns isn't the long-term solution to the proliferation of gun violence. Or persuading freedom-loving capitalists to see the beneficial possibilities of communal socialism.

Rightly or wrongly, each side has its own worldview. Let's see how successful you are in drawing one side to the other.

It's as Ledgem said. For Catholics and Christians, it comes down to the extent to which they question the authority of God as set out in the Bible. For many of them, it's a much more wrenching dilemma than outsiders realise. You may see it differently if you're a free-thinker or atheist, but I'd challenge you to put yourself in front of a mirror and ask what you believe, and whether you'd drop principles that have otherwise worked for you all your life.

If it's an easy thing, then you probably never believed in it as strongly as people of faith believe in God. Therein lies the difference.
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Old 2013-05-19, 12:05   Link #28450
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If people aren't willing to drop their world view, they are the problem.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that it posits there is only one "correct" world view/value/belief system (presumably yours), which is itself very troubling.
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Old 2013-05-19, 12:11   Link #28451
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
The problem with this line of reasoning is that it posits there is only one "correct" world view/value/belief system (presumably yours), which is itself very troubling.
Not at all. I propose that people should be able to change their minds, perhaps multiple times in their lifetimes. I don't mind if someone has different world view from mine, I do mind if the only reason they hold that view is because they refuse to change anything.
Quote:
It's as Ledgem said. For Catholics and Christians, it comes down to the extent to which they question the authority of God as set out in the Bible. For many of them, it's a much more wrenching dilemma than outsiders realise. You may see it differently if you're a free-thinker or atheist, but I'd challenge you to put yourself in front of a mirror and ask what you believe, and whether you'd drop principles that have otherwise worked for you all your life.
I don't need to be reminded of that. The fact is Catholics and Protestants were prepared to murder people who think different from them. The only reason they aren't doing it today is because they haven't got the power anymore. I have dropped principles when I believe I was wrong, it was not easy but I did it.
Wrenching dilemma? That's laughable, if it wasn't so sad. If they could, they would cut off my head rather than face the music. I find that fact very comforting in allowing me to feel no sympathy for them.

Principles that no longer worked, HAS to be dropped. We can do it because we are human, because we can fight instincts. The only question is if you are prepared to tell when to do so.
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Old 2013-05-19, 12:19   Link #28452
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I do mind if the only reason they hold that view is because they refuse to change anything.
It's their right not to change their view. You're being intolerant and hypocritical if you think otherwise.
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Old 2013-05-19, 13:09   Link #28453
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
A number of French, especially in the south, are Catholics. So, the negative reaction is not surprising at all. And before anyone says it, I'll point out that the reactions do not stem just from "love versus hate" arguments. It's not that simple. We're talking about forcing people to drop a worldview they have held their whole lives.

Ideologies take generations to change. Until then, protests — sometimes violent — are only to be expected.
I wonder they really feel so strongly about this theme. There are a few conservative roman-catholics in my family, and especially the older generation tends to simply accept whatever the pastor or bishops tells them on matters of faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
The problem with this line of reasoning is that it posits there is only one "correct" world view/value/belief system (presumably yours), which is itself very troubling.
True, but on the other hand not all beliefs and views are of equal value. Views that are in conflict with fundamental human rights are on shaky ground.
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Old 2013-05-19, 13:27   Link #28454
Sumeragi
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"Fundamental human rights" is in itself another value that can be changed. Ultimately no values are fundamental.

Thinking that there are any fundamental values is in itself a delusion. We accept certain values as "fundamental" because that's what we learned.
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Old 2013-05-19, 13:46   Link #28455
Bri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
We accept certain values as "fundamental" because that's what we learned.
No, because after careful consideration, we as human beings, consider them to be a good idea. Which is stronger position than any random authority stating "this is a fact because I say so".
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Old 2013-05-19, 13:48   Link #28456
Ridwan
Got A Bad Desire
 
 
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Eh, we just adapt to where we live, really.
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Old 2013-05-19, 14:54   Link #28457
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Bri View Post
No, because after careful consideration, we as human beings, consider them to be a good idea. Which is stronger position than any random authority stating "this is a fact because I say so".
And such considerations can change. Who knows, ten thousand years from now our descendants might laugh at us for being soft.
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Old 2013-05-19, 15:46   Link #28458
Anh_Minh
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Or consider us barbarically tyrannical, the way we picture our own ancestors from ten thousand years ago.
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Old 2013-05-19, 15:53   Link #28459
willx
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Or consider us barbarically tyrannical, the way we picture our own ancestors from ten thousand years ago.
Or think about the "good old days" that never were even just a few decades ago?
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Old 2013-05-19, 16:04   Link #28460
Bri
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
And such considerations can change. Who knows, ten thousand years from now our descendants might laugh at us for being soft.
They might, but unless they send a message back in time, we will never know. In the short term however, fundamental rights are fixed and function as a practical frame of reference.


In the case of gay marriage rights, the gay couples can expect real benefits in terms of legal positions etc. from the right to marry, while the opponents lose none. Their argument is based on having their world view harmed. This loss does not hold up to what the other side has to gain based on what we perceive as fundamental rights.
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