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Old 2013-05-19, 16:14   Link #28461
Sumeragi
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But it does not mean they are absolute standards of right and wrong.
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Old 2013-05-19, 17:15   Link #28462
Vexx
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Fundamental would be "Treat others as you would want to be treated." That social group rule seems to transcend cultures and even species and has scientific underpinning as a survival trait for social species.
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Old 2013-05-19, 18:21   Link #28463
maplehurry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri View Post


In the case of gay marriage rights, the gay couples can expect real benefits in terms of legal positions etc. from the right to marry, while the opponents lose none. Their argument is based on having their world view harmed. This loss does not hold up to what the other side has to gain based on what we perceive as fundamental rights.
But if everyone is gay and is allowed by law, humanity could go extinct !

/ignore technology

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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Fundamental would be "Treat others as you would want to be treated." That social group rule seems to transcend cultures and even species and has scientific underpinning as a survival trait for social species.

Unfortunately, resources are limited.
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Old 2013-05-19, 18:35   Link #28464
AnimeFan188
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Suit Alleges IRS Improperly Seized 60 Million Personal Medical Records:

"“These medical records contained intimate and private information of more than
10,000,000 Americans, information that by its nature includes information about
treatment for any kind of medical concern, including psychological counseling,
gynecological counseling, sexual or drug treatment, and a wide range of medical
matters covering the most intimate and private of concerns,” the complaint states.

“Despite knowing that these medical records were not within the scope of the
warrant, defendants threatened to ‘rip’ the servers containing the medical data out
of the building if IT personnel would not voluntarily hand them over,” the complaint
reads."

See:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/scottgot...dical-records/
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Old 2013-05-19, 19:24   Link #28465
SaintessHeart
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Tyrannical regimes, or rather hard governments, are examples of weak and fearful rulers.

Strong ones don't care about protests, and would cut small deals to gain more concessions from the people. Really.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-05-19, 19:37   Link #28466
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
There are times to hold your ground, and there are times to change one's mind. But if one is incapable of doing either when the circumstances call for it, it is not for us to enable that inability to move on.
Sure, but what are the circumstances?

People are intelligent and also think that they are more intelligent than they really are. Did you know that as recently as the late 1850's the world's leading scientists accepted the belief that life formed spontaneously? It was widely believed that there were recipes for creating animals; that mice could be formed from rotting grain, or eels and frogs from mud, or maggots from rotting meat. It took over one century for enough experiments and proof to be delivered that put the issue to rest. We can laugh about it now, but the point is that the leading scientists of the time - the most forward thinkers, the most knowledgeable and curious people - stubbornly held on to that belief, unimpressed by the efforts to prove otherwise.

We know a lot more now than we did then, but our brains haven't changed. The general thought processes are the same. You grow up knowing nothing and accept nearly everything that is told to you. When that information is challenged by other information then you are skeptical of the new information. If you have the tools of thought to properly make the comparison then good for you, but many lack that ability. It isn't that they're stupid, either, it's just that many of these topics are beyond their scope of understanding.

Another point is to consider how much it really matters. Youngest members on this forum aside, who here on this forum still thinks of Pluto as a planet? We were raised with the world view that Pluto was one of our planets, and quite honestly it doesn't really matter whether we regard it as a planet or not. To be forced into thinking that Pluto isn't a planet feels a bit strange. It might bug some of the people at NASA to think that society isn't accepting that view, but who here knows a NASA scientist? (Besides Vexx, of course.) It's a similar deal with the homosexual marriage issue: people who cling to that belief aren't affected by that belief, and most don't know anyone who is homosexual (or if they do, they don't realize it). There was either a news article or a study indicating that when anti-gay marriage people actually met and interacted with homosexual people then their stance softened.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The fact is Catholics and Protestants were prepared to murder people who think different from them. The only reason they aren't doing it today is because they haven't got the power anymore.
I think they still have the power to do so. There are more reasons than what you're suggesting.
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Old 2013-05-19, 19:56   Link #28467
SaintessHeart
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Ledgem, I can't quote your entire post because ICS has a crappy interface, but I would like to highlight that Pluto being a planet or not is a scientific fact and will change things for years to come, but whatever beliefs the Catholics hold is based on perspective and has something called "moral merit", and will continue to influence society as long as it retains the value, and people seek reason from things holding such merit to give themselves a sense of righteousness in the face of other people's actions.

Robber barons and pastors are alike in a sense that they think it is their right to espouse some sort of "reality" for the masses, when such is only a perspective that works for each one of us by maintaining our self-esteem.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-05-19, 20:01   Link #28468
Sumeragi
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Definition of planet itself is not set in stone.
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Old 2013-05-19, 20:09   Link #28469
Chaos2Frozen
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I remember they had to vote for it....=_=

But I'm fine with it as long as Pluto isn't the only dwarf planet in our system....Cause thats would just be mean if it were.

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2013-05-19 at 20:28.
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Old 2013-05-19, 20:12   Link #28470
Ithekro
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Though if Pluto becomes a planet again, we would logically need to add Eris to the list of Planets as the Tenth Planet. It is supposedly larger than Pluto.

Presently Pluto is not the only Dwarf Planet in the system. There are presently five recognized as such: Ceres, Pluto, Huemea, Makemake, and Eris.
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Old 2013-05-19, 20:34   Link #28471
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Definition of planet itself is not set in stone.
I know what you are getting at, however my argument is not debating on the definition of whether Pluto is a planet or not.

Debunking a scientific fact will result in major changes being made to how we do research, and may affect scientific teaching materials being validated differently. A belief that espouses right an wrong will only change mindsets within its sphere of influence.

Science is a tool, whereas belief is merely a action on the tool. Different actions with a same tool results in different effects.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-05-19, 22:09   Link #28472
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I know what you are getting at, however my argument is not debating on the definition of whether Pluto is a planet or not.

Debunking a scientific fact will result in major changes being made to how we do research, and may affect scientific teaching materials being validated differently. A belief that espouses right an wrong will only change mindsets within its sphere of influence.

Science is a tool, whereas belief is merely a action on the tool. Different actions with a same tool results in different effects.
I don't quite agree with this. Whether Pluto is a planet or not doesn't have to do with facts, it's based around human-made classifications. In theory we could call Pluto what ever we wanted, but I think that a lot of people from our generation and older still prefer to think of Pluto as a planet. It's the same with marriage. Why does marriage have to be between one man and one woman? Alternately, why should marriage be anything other than an act between one man and one woman?

The big difference between Pluto's status as a planet and one's regard for marriage is other people. Whether or not I believe that Pluto is a planet doesn't really impact anyone. Even if I were to lobby school boards and the government and successfully get them to consider Pluto to be a planet again it would have little effect on people's lives (sorry, astronomers). Yet if I do the same for marriage then people's lives are being affected.

Thus the comparison can only go so far, but I bring it up because there are some good parallels with understanding how difficult it can be to give up a particular world view as well as understanding why there may be a lack of feeling the need to alter one's world view.
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Old 2013-05-19, 22:33   Link #28473
ganbaru
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Venezuela says taking steps to restore U.S. diplomatic ties
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...94J01R20130520

Netanyahu takes aim at weapons leakage in Syria
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...94I03L20130519
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Old 2013-05-19, 22:42   Link #28474
Vexx
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What Ledgem just said, *taxonomy* isn't "fact", it is a convenient way to sort data by attributes. Pluto matches its brothers out in the Kuiper Belt more closely than the major object we designate "planet'. There is a likewise grey area between planets and stars (extremely large gas planets that emit more radiation than they receive are edgy).

So don't confuse the labels we put on things with the things themselves.

None of that has very much to do at all with doctrinal belief systems that may be based on pure irrationality and hallucinogenic visions as much as any logically reasoned theory based on the collection of actual data.
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Old 2013-05-20, 00:25   Link #28475
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
None of that has very much to do at all with doctrinal belief systems that may be based on pure irrationality and hallucinogenic visions as much as any logically reasoned theory based on the collection of actual data.
Everything is ultimately both logical and illogical. Values certainly aren't logically reasoned theories, though.
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Old 2013-05-20, 02:32   Link #28476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
None of that has very much to do at all with doctrinal belief systems that may be based on pure irrationality and hallucinogenic visions as much as any logically reasoned theory based on the collection of actual data.
First of all, I'm a free-thinker; I'm agnostic on the question of God. But it also means I'm open to the possibility and importance of spirituality. So, I think it's ill-advised to write off "doctrinal belief systems" as irrational mumbo-jumbo that only fools would take up.

AnimeSuki memebers may find the experience of astronauts who walked the Moon interesting.

How Moon travel changed astronauts
Quote:
July 20, 2009: In the history of humanity, only 24 men have shared the experience.

Forty years ago today, the first of the two dozen astronauts to fly to or around the Moon rocketed away from Earth to make history. Twelve had the chance to walk on the moon's surface, though only nine of those are still alive today.

When they returned to Earth, they were scientists and explorers with no peers, at the pinnacles of their careers.

But for some the adventure was so epic it changed the course of their lives. Inspired and transformed by seeing Earth shrink to the size of their thumbs, many let new philosophical and spiritual sensibilities guide them. Others chose entirely new career paths.

Those who have interviewed the lunar astronauts at length, or are familiar with the space programme, say that each individual responded to the experience differently.

Apollo 15 astronaut James Irwin, for example, was so spiritually moved by travelling to the Moon that he left Nasa one year after his mission to form a religious organisation, High Flight Foundation in Colorado Springs, Colorado.

"I felt the power of God as I'd never felt it before," he said about the July 1971 experience. He was the lunar module pilot for the flight and explored the moon's surface for three days.

According to High Flight's website, the astronaut started the organisation to encourage others to experience "the Highest Flight possible with God".

"Jesus walking on the Earth is more important than man walking on the Moon," it quotes Irwin as saying.

The group organises religious retreats and trips to the Holy Land. Before his death in 1991, Irwin led expeditions to Turkey's Mount Ararat in search of evidence of Noah's Ark.

"The Earth reminded us of a Christmas tree ornament hanging in the blackness of space. As we got farther and farther away, it diminished in size. Finally, it shrank to the size of a marble, the most beautiful you can imagine," Irwin said. "That beautiful, warm, living object looked so fragile, so delicate, that if you touched it with a finger it would crumble and fall apart... Seeing this has to change a man."

ABC NEWS
So, what happened? Would members here say that Irwin became a loon after his moon-walking experience? Or is there something more profound at work here that we can't relate to because we've not undergone something similar?

I think this is the problem I often see in AnimeSuki. The socio-political views of most members here are decidedly left-leaning and very sceptical towards religion and faith in general. While there's nothing wrong with that per se, it becomes problematic when religious people who hold strong doctrinal views are tarred as bigoted madmen incapable of change.

When we do that, we effectively alienate the very people we ought to be working with to change mindsets for the better. And that can't possibly bode well for progress.
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Old 2013-05-20, 02:43   Link #28477
Vexx
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"may be based" ... Besides, if a doctrinal belief system is *colliding* with the facts on the ground, it is by definition a malfunction.

In inertial guidance systems that have learning abilities, we call this "spiraling out into the weeds" -- developing an internal model that does not correspond to reality.

All the astronauts reacted fairly profoundly to their space and lunar experiences, Irwin is an outlier to some extent but he was very religious before he left the ground. And just because he was an astronaut doesn't mean he had a clue about archeology or history.
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Old 2013-05-20, 02:45   Link #28478
Sumeragi
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Even "facts" on the ground are open to interpretation.
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Old 2013-05-20, 02:45   Link #28479
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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James Irwin is a Christian because of where he is born. He didn't become a Christian because he walked on the Moon. If he was Indian he would just as likely to have dedicated the Moon to Vishnu .

So he became more religious than he was originally because he went to the Moon; it doesn't validate his religion because I don't see any Chinese Astronauts turning towards Christ any time soon. If a Chinese astronaut decided to become a Christian preacher after going into Space, do let me know.
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Old 2013-05-20, 02:55   Link #28480
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Even "facts" on the ground are open to interpretation.
Fine, give that a go in mathematics.
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