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Old 2013-07-14, 15:14   Link #29421
Vexx
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Yes, battery is actual physical violence - assault is the threat thereof. Legally, Zimmerman was engaging in assault the instant he engaged and intimidated Trayvon - any events that led up to Trayvon felt like he needed to act.

And yes, I've been in bar fights against people I didn't know. Sheesh. I'm not avoiding your questions, I've answered every single one. You don't seem to be willing to look at the big picture.
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Old 2013-07-14, 15:15   Link #29422
justinstrife
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Yes, battery is actual physical violence - assault is the threat thereof. Legally, Zimmerman was engaging in assault the instant he engaged and intimidated Trayvon - any events that led up to Trayvon felt like he needed to act.

And yes, I've been in bar fights against people I didn't know. Sheesh.
Did you bash their heads against sidewalks?
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Old 2013-07-14, 15:15   Link #29423
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Wow. I can't believe that post of yours. The guy's getting his damn head bashed in and that's what you say in response.
And the kid got killed, but you don't seem to care about that. My point is that just becase Zimmerman got hurt doesn't prove he didn't start it.

That's kind of the problem here. Zimmerman's alive and so must be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. But if he's not, it implies Treyvon's guilty. So basically, Treyvon must be proven innocent beyond reasonable doubt, just because he's dead, which I find rather asymmetric.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Did you bash their heads against sidewalks?
How come when you're armed, it's alright to shoot people to "end the fight as fast as possible", but when you're not it's criminal to bash their head against the sidewalk to do the same?
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Old 2013-07-14, 15:19   Link #29424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And the kid got killed, but you don't seem to care about that.
One difference in one of his blows to Zimmernman could have killed him. So nope, I don't. Anyone who is bashing someone else's head against concrete when he is 100% dominating a fight, gets zero sympathy from me. And yes it was 100% at that point, as Trayvon had no injuries from the struggle until he was shot.

He was 17 years old. Very borderline kid in my opinion. Thug fits his image better considering what I've read and seen about him.

Quote:
How come when you're armed, it's alright to shoot people to "end the fight as fast as possible", but when you're not it's criminal to bash their head against the sidewalk to do the same?
It's alright to shoot someone to save your damn life when your head is being bashed in. Don't know how many times I have to keep typing that over, and over, and over again. I didn't say just to end a fight. But to save a damn life.

Your argument doesn't connect. The comparisons you are making are all over the map.
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Old 2013-07-14, 15:20   Link #29425
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Did you bash their heads against sidewalks?
I rammed their head onto the bar counter several times. Another time I used a chair to ram the jackass back into a wall. In a fight, your objective is to incapacitate the other so you can either get away or call the police.

Now, it appears I can be minding my own business, be confronted or assaulted, even be attacked, and then legally shot dead if I start winning the fight.

Fabulous.

Last edited by Vexx; 2013-07-14 at 15:48.
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Old 2013-07-14, 15:22   Link #29426
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
One difference in one of his blows to Zimmernman could have killed him.
And Zimmerman's blow did kill Treyvon, no "could" about it.

Quote:
So nope, I don't. Anyone who is bashing someone else's head against concrete when he is 100% dominating a fight, gets zero sympathy from me. And yes it was 100% at that point, as Trayvon had no injuries from the struggle until he was shot.
If I got into a fight, got a lucky shot in and had my opponent on the ground, you can be sure I'd do my best to be sure he didn't get a chance to reverse the situation.
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Old 2013-07-14, 15:25   Link #29427
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
One difference in one of his blows to Zimmernman could have killed him. So nope, I don't. Anyone who is bashing someone else's head against concrete when he is 100% dominating a fight, gets zero sympathy from me. And yes it was 100% at that point, as Trayvon had no injuries from the struggle until he was shot.
Yet he was shot. Therefore, he must not have been dominating 100%. And why is it okay to die by a single bullet, but a crime to die by a single blow to the head?

Quote:
It's alright to shoot someone to save your damn life when your head is being bashed in. Don't know how many times I have to keep typing that over, and over, and over again. I didn't say just to end a fight. But to save a damn life.
Yet it's not alright to bash someone's head to save your damn life when you might get shot? Don't know how many times I have to keep typing that over, and over, and over again. And yes, you did say just to end a fight as quickly as possible.
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Old 2013-07-14, 15:32   Link #29428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
One difference in one of his blows to Zimmernman could have killed him. So nope, I don't. Anyone who is bashing someone else's head against concrete when he is 100% dominating a fight, gets zero sympathy from me. And yes it was 100% at that point, as Trayvon had no injuries from the struggle until he was shot.
"Could have" versus "did?" I think you're confusing who was on trial here.

Ok, so, if I'm walking along at night, alone, and you come up to me and start verbally harassing me enough so that I feel threatened, so I trip you, I deserve to be shot? After all, you could have hit your head and been killed in that fall. And who knows, I might even trip you again, you can't risk that.
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Old 2013-07-14, 15:36   Link #29429
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Old 2013-07-14, 15:43   Link #29430
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The largest problem here is that we do not have the evidence. We have our perception of the evidence and presented by the media, not in a court of law.

The chain seems to be that Zimmernman assaulted Trayvon. Trayvon reacted by assaulting back with battery (do we know if Zimmernman was branishing his firearm at the start?). In responce to the battery, Zimmernman shot Trayvon.

This is how it is perceived. We don't know how it went down exactly as we only have one side's statement as the other is dead.
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Old 2013-07-14, 16:23   Link #29431
Vexx
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I can just project myself onto either side - no matter what the inner motivations are it can turn into a he said she said situation -- and one side can't speak in that particular case. Even with the uncontestable parts of the data - the fact remains that Zimmerman left his vehicle against NW protocol and confronted Trayvon. In my head, that puts the onus on him.

I can easily see my completely rightful response to being approached by Zimmerman, reacting to him threatening me, it ending in my death because I was unable to disarm him and no one contesting his version of events - and him walking free thanks to a badly written law.

I guess the moral is for me to use my CCW and go "Indiana Jones" and shoot dead anyone who threatens me. Whee. I think I'll take Florida off my visit list (and any other state showing evidence of that law running amok).
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Old 2013-07-14, 16:30   Link #29432
Anh_Minh
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When I was 16 I went to Florida. I was already 6', which justinstrife thinks is important. At one point I got lost and wandered onto private property.

I now see I am so lucky the employee who found me gave me a ride back out instead of shooting me...
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Old 2013-07-14, 17:05   Link #29433
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
The two cases are very separate and need to be looked at such Vexx. I am unfamiliar with that case in Texas and will need to look into it before I make any comments about it, as I know nothing about it. So forgive me if I can't respond to it with any opinion or thought.

Again Vexx, who had the physical signs that result from fights? Who had bruises, cuts, gashes, and broken bones and who didn't? Take your damn blinders off for one moment and think about that. If a guy swings at you and misses, does that give you the right to break his nose, then bash his head against a sidewalk, potentially killing him? We don't even know who actually, physically, attacked who. Words are nothing, and no reason for a physical fight. So who physically struck at the other first? The only one with the injuries is Zimmerman. Don't you find that odd from your side of the argument?? At all?

People have died from nothing more than tripping and hitting their head on a sidewalk. Trayvon very easily could have killed him with one change in impact with the concrete.
You talk about excessive force, yet the one dead from a bullet is Martin.

There are only two things important to the case. Who started it, and how it ended. Zimmerman instigated the fight by not allowing the police time to arrive to investigate his report. The fight was ended because he bit off more than he could chew and felt threatened enough to pull his gun. It is not a premeditated murder, but it's not really self defense either. The altercation would have been prevented if Zimmerman had not provoked the fight.

Put it another way, assume Martin had killed Zimmerman, by Zimmerman hitting his head on the ground. The force could be judged to be excessive, yet it is self defense since Zimmerman instigated the fight by approaching Martin even though he had no reason to.

This is ignoring any racism that has sprung up around the case, or armchair legal "experts" in the public. And in the end there wasn't enough evidence to prove the charges brought against Zimmerman. So he's not guilty of murder, but he still killed someone. The jury's opinion reflects this, and it's pretty much what I expected the outcome to be since no evidence or witnesses to the actual fight exist to prove or disprove Zimmerman's claims. The only one who could is dead, obviously. What really happened that night will remain a mystery.

The more difficult question to answer is "what's next"? I'm not sure anyone can really answer that.
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Old 2013-07-14, 17:14   Link #29434
KiraYamatoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Considering that one of the reasons that Zimmerman avoided arrest was because of the Stand Your Ground Law, the idea that Martin's principal mistake wasn't retreating from a fight is hypocritically hilarious.


That's why I have a hard time taking the Zimmerman trial seriously as a self defense issue. A true self defense advocate would argue that if you found yourself being pursued by an unidentified person in the middle of the night, you'd have reasonable reason to think your safety was at risk. And that you'd have latitude in trying to defend yourself. People defending Zimmerman are actually arguing against peoples right to self defense when you think about it practically.

Just another reason to disconnect Florida from the USA with a hacksaw.

Very much this. The fat wanker went himself asking for trouble and completely disregarded a DIRECT ORDER to keep his fat derrière in the car before the police gets there. Instead, he went in there knowing very well the risks, so the self-defence argument should have been thrown to the garbage dump from the very start. He asked for serious trouble to fall upon his head and that's from where he should never have been in a position to be defended in court.

For me, I think it's also a matter of the authorities in Florida saving face because their own laws allow wankers like Zimmerman to be in that broken Neighborhood Watch. Seriously, if that state attorney was free to choose (and be intelligent enough) in choosing manslaughter instead of murder, chances would have been higher that Zimmerman would serve time in jail by now. IMHO, that joke of a trial was a cheat since the very beginning.

Nice gif. I'd also do just like Bugs.
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Old 2013-07-14, 18:07   Link #29435
Badkarma 1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The largest problem here is that we do not have the evidence. We have our perception of the evidence and presented by the media, not in a court of law.

The chain seems to be that Zimmernman assaulted Trayvon. Trayvon reacted by assaulting back with battery (do we know if Zimmernman was branishing his firearm at the start?). In responce to the battery, Zimmernman shot Trayvon.

This is how it is perceived. We don't know how it went down exactly as we only have one side's statement as the other is dead.
THIS! None of us have the full story, or were there. We are fed what the sensationalist media gives us, and expected to draw conclusions from that.
Did a fight break out, yes, did Martin get the upper hand, yes, was Zimmerman within his rights to defend himself, "?".
What if Zimmerman had stayed in the car and waited for police? What if Martin decided to run of fight the officers? What about the evidence that was not allowed in the trial?

Solace asks "what now", an interesting question indeed! Zimmerman will have to live with a death on his soul, that's something that will never go away. Martina's parents will have to grieve and hopefully move on. However there may be a civil suit and a possible federal investigation. Plus the specter of possible retribution will be there as well.
The video that was posted is a pretty good indicator of how not to do it! For those if us who've been in a fight, we all know how suddenly civility gets thrown out the door. And how it becomes either a fight or flee situation or fighting for your life!
Draw your own conclusions, and make your own mind up. But till you've been there and done that, don't pass judgement! Dale
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Old 2013-07-14, 20:22   Link #29436
Urzu 7
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Someone on another forum tried to say that the injustice was on Zimmerman, so this is what I wrote...

Quote:
Zimmerman was following Trayvon and probably making him afraid and defensive. Zimmerman had no reason to stalk the teen. He wasn't doing anything unlawful. I wouldn't be surprised if Zimmerman has a prejudice against blacks, either. I read that he called into the dispatch over dark skinned 'suspects' many times (they never did anything unlawful). And what about the time that Zimmerman clearly says "fucking coons" on the 911 recording? Zimmerman is prejudiced against black people.

It is an injustice against Trayvon. Trayvon probably started to fear for himself because some guy about 30 years old is stalking him and looking at him with real dirty looks. An altercation happens, Trayvon might have been on top and winning in the altercation, and then the man with the gun shoots and wins out in the situation. I think that Trayvon was trying to stand his ground.

But yeah, after Zimmerman starts to stalk a teen who is doing nothing unlawful, instigates things, and then shit gets bad from there and it results in the man with the gun (the stalker) shooting and killing the unarmed teenager who was doing nothing unlawful...yeah, let us pretend the injustice is on Zimmerman. After all that, Trayvon has been dead since early last year and Zimmerman is alive and well and now he won't get a single penalty for all this. He is totally walking free from the situation. But my God, let us pretend that the injustice is on Zimmerman...

I'll repeat something for people like JustinStrife:

Quote:
I think that Trayvon was trying to stand his ground.
I mean, seriously, Trayvon was minding his own business and this 30 something year old guy got on his case and pursued him and probably instigated a conflict, and then a physical altercation happened...Trayvon is the bad guy for standing his ground by bashing Zimmerman's head into the cement, but Zimmerman - who probably really is the one to blame for shit getting bad and an altercation starting IN THE FIRST PLACE is 'A-Okay' for standing his ground and shooting Trayvon dead? Really? This is what we should believe? And it wasn't Trayvon standing his ground but only Zimmerman standing his ground because the stand your ground law only applies to people with guns? Fucking Awesome. Go Florida.
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Old 2013-07-14, 20:32   Link #29437
MeoTwister5
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Apparently the standing your ground law only applies to be used as a defense when you're actually still standing on said ground at the end of it all.
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Old 2013-07-14, 20:35   Link #29438
Urzu 7
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Of course Trayvon is a bad guy for fighting to save his own life, though.
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Last edited by Urzu 7; 2013-07-14 at 22:00.
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Old 2013-07-14, 20:44   Link #29439
MeoTwister5
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Again like I previously posted, the letter of the law is still the law whether it's stupid or not. He was acquitted because technically the law protected his right. The jury for what it's worth followed the law as a jury should. The claim made by some anti-racism groups (and I find the racism card to be hugely overblown) that they're a bunch of tools for letting him get away is an unfair call because the verdict was made in accordance to the law. If they followed the public outcry they'd be undermining the legal process.

People shouldn't be lynching the trial. They should be lynching the law.
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Old 2013-07-14, 20:45   Link #29440
KiraYamatoFan
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Good find, Urzu.

The only wanker in the story is the stalking Zimmerman disregarding a direct order. Whoever can be led to think otherwise when reading all about the facts must be below 50 points of IQ, just like those members of the jury.
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